Without interfering in your conversation, I would like to independently answer that God does command us to love Him with our mind - which we ought to - and never do in the flesh. Here, if perhaps we had obeyed, it would be salvation by works - but we fail and hence are undeserving of salvation. But out of God's compassion and mercy, we are regenerated and are given the Mind of Christ to overcome our fleshly minds. By this act of grace, we are moved to repent and believe in God apart from all our own abilities/efforts that only resulted in condemnation. The regenerated new inner man works out the good works of God in the spirit, by the Spirit - and these cannot be credited to him, for it is God who is the primal cause of these. Only his works by the flesh are credited to him and these are not subject to God's laws, neither can be. So, we are enabled to fulfill God's commandment to love Him by His grace working out in us - and not by our own works by the flesh - hence we term it salvation by grace and not by works. "No works" here does not imply the absence of good works - it only concludes that no work that can be credited us is good and all good works done out of us is by God's grace working in us.Grazer said:
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Is belief "works"?
- Thread starter gr8grace
- Start date
Deborah13
Member
saved by grace through faith, that is a gift from God, and not by works BELIEVING is not a work of the mind in a way that God considers Believing a "work of righteousness" to earn salvation. It is recognizing that we need a Savior Redeemer. Or is RECOGNIZING this need a work, too.
Sorry no.
True - in the case of the mind that believes in God without the intent of making it a "work of righteousness" to earn salvation. And all fleshly minds cannot but corrupt the true intent of faith in God - and turn what is not a meritorious work into one so they can feed their pride of life or comfort of the self. In this sense, all works by the flesh are deemed self-seeking and not good - while all good works are not credited to man at all.Deborah13 said:
Anyway, I did not refer to Believing when I mentioned obedience to God - I was referring to Loving God as commanded in God's Law.
The debate on "Works" here revolves only around whom the 'works' are credited to - God or man. If man assumes credit for Recognizing or Believing or any other conclusive action with an effect, then these are termed "works by the flesh" that are against the will of God. On the other hand, if these works are worked out of man where he is not credited at all, then all credit goes to God and we term these as the "Works of God" in man - which are good, non-meritorious with respect to man, and completely by Grace.Deborah13 said:
Davies
Member
Hi Deborah,
You say you have free will, but you don't have the power, understanding to choose on your own. That sounds contradictory to me. I have to agree there is a place for free will because we exercise it everyday, but putting our faith in Jesus? Knowing myself before conversion and after conversion, I don't believe we do anything good without God which would agree with the later part of your statement quoted.
One of these days, I've got to get around to studying Calvin. I've heard contradictory things about what he taught and what people took from him and ran with it. I've had the same protests that you have, but Romans chapter 9 is very clear just as Jesus words to the disciples when He said, 'You did not choose me but I chose you and appointed you to bear fruit.' If we had free will to do, then Jesus would have never referred to us as being in bondage to sin, John 8:34.
It is our nature to reject Jesus, and the miracle is that some people do choose Jesus, but, "You did not choose Me..."
Yes, Mitspa does quote a lot of Scripture, and Jethro explains the Gospel very well.
- Davies
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
grazer
No I am not, its in your imagination. Believing is a work, Loving is a work. Here is the definition of a work :
its the greek word ergon:
business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
Now, is believing an act done by man ? Is it done with the mind ? If yes, then its a work ! Is Loving God an act fone by man ? Yes its a work ! God said Love Him with all ones mind ! Matt 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
No I am not, its in your imagination. Believing is a work, Loving is a work. Here is the definition of a work :
its the greek word ergon:
business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
Now, is believing an act done by man ? Is it done with the mind ? If yes, then its a work ! Is Loving God an act fone by man ? Yes its a work ! God said Love Him with all ones mind ! Matt 22:37
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
deb
Thats exactly what believing is, a work of Righteousness that pleases God. Titus 3:5 does not say that believing is not a work of Righteousness, because it is. A work is defined by the greek word ergon as:
business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
Now, is believing an act done by man ? Is it done with the mind ? If yes, then its a work !
Thats exactly what believing is, a work of Righteousness that pleases God. Titus 3:5 does not say that believing is not a work of Righteousness, because it is. A work is defined by the greek word ergon as:
business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
Now, is believing an act done by man ? Is it done with the mind ? If yes, then its a work !
Grazer
Member
Romans 9 is the answer to the question in Rom 3:1.....what advantage does the Jew have then?
Romans chp 9 is Paul telling the Jews that they were Elected as a nation(new racial species), But they Have no advantage over the Gentile nations, because God can Have mercy on the Gentiles if He so chooses. Rom 9:25
B. The Three Elections in History.
1. There are three elections in history.
a. Israel under the ritual plan of God.
b. Christ under the incarnation plan of God.
c. The Church under the protocol plan of God.
2. Each election brought a new category into history.
a. The election of Israel brought in the new racial species, the Jew.b. The election of Christ brought in the Hypostatic Union, i.e., undiminished deity and true humanity in one person forever. Jesus Christ is eternal God and therefore different from humanity. Jesus Christ is true humanity and therefore different from eternal God. He had to become true humanity to be our Savior, our great high priest, and our mediator.
Romans Chp 9 is about the Nation Of Israel and Gods Sovereign Choice in a racial species to Carry out the Promise. And Paul is reiterating to them that they have no advantage when it comes to the Promise.
When it comes to Pharaoh?......Exodus 10:3
when it comes to the Potter and the clay?......Jer 18:5-11 Its the Nation of Israel.
The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord saying, “Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there I shall announce My words to you.” Then I went down to the potter's house, and there he was, making something on the wheel. But the vessel that he was making of clay was spoiled in the hand of the potter; so he remade it into another vessel, as it pleased the potter to make. Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, “Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter {does}?” declares the Lord.” “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.” (JER 18:1-6)
Romans Chp 9 is not about personal salvation. it is about Gods choice of a Nation and His Choice to go to the Gentiles because Israel rebelled. Rom 9:25
John 8:34... Believing in Christ sets you free. Acts 16:31
John 15:16...But I CHOSE you.....Chose=Aorist middle indicative of the greek word... exclexasthe . The middle voice says that God did not choose you based on His volition only, but based upon our response to His initiation. 2 Cor 6:2
No personal volition? Prov 1:23-31
Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
Jethro Bodine
Member
And this, as I've tried to point out, is the point. I don't think it's a matter of determining whether 'faith' is a work, or not. The point is God distinguishes between the two, 'faith' and 'works', as being able to make a person legally righteous before him. And it only makes sense because only the blood of Christ can do that. Really, what work outside of 'believing' can a person do to somehow make themselves righteous before God? This is what 'righteousness (by faith) apart from works' (Romans 4:6) means.
Some think the blood gets applied through the satisfactory performance of righteous duties outside of faith itself. In contrast, I think the Bible is very clear that the power of the blood to make one righteous before God comes through the gracious gift of faith to place your trust in that blood. Call doing that a work if you want to. The point is that's the only thing that can make you righteous.
So, call faith an actual work--like loving your neighbor or whatever--if you want to. But the point is only faith in the blood of Christ, to make you legally righteous before God, can actually secure that righteousness...alone, all by itself, apart from (other) works. And this has nothing to do with James' 'faith alone' argument, but many people think they're talking about the same thing.
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Hi Jethro,
Right there with ya!
I would like to add one thing if I may, concerning dead faith in James. It has been my experience that some interpret that verse, saying FAITH is the OBJECT for salvation. And Faith is not the object of salvation,Christ is. It is Christ alone first and always remains Christ alone and has nothing to do with the Creatures faith or behavior after they have believed.
After belief we are sealed Eph 1:13-14 and then the indwelling spirit is the object that keeps us saved, not our faith. 2Tim 2:13;Tit 1:2
If James ever said,"salvation is dead without works." then I would be a little worried! 2 Tim 2:13
It is Christ alone and remains Christ alone after salvation....if we do not believe that we will always come up with a faulty doctrine somewhere.
thisnumbersdisconnected
Member
It is clear Paul differentiates between faith and works (an my apolotigies as I'm sure someone has already shared this Scripture, but 575 posts is a lot to read through).
Galatians 2 NASB
16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law ; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
I really don't see how faith/belief could ever be described as a "work." It does not come from us, it comes from the Holy Spirit who calls us, who draws us, who opens our mind to believe and if we will dare to trust, He imparts the faith to believe.16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law ; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
''THEN JESUS ANSWERED AND SAID UNTO THEM, THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE ON HIM WHOM HE HATH SENT'', Jn.6:29. Jesus said belief is a "work", it is not man's work as if of human merit, but a "work of God". Yet, it is something man must do. Any thing God tells us to DO is not a work of human righteousness or merit.
Yep! and the thing that pains me the most is the idea that God would withhold that saving faith from even ONE of His creatures. Not one person ever born deserves it, but He extends Grace(Gospel) to all. to say that our God would NOT extend saving grace to a certain person is a direct attack on the Character and Nature of our God.
Davies
Member
Hi Jarrod,
When you say that Jesus is different from eternal God, this makes me nervous. God is a Trinity, and though Jesus took the form of a man, the only difference between Jesus and God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, is His role not His nature. Though they are three distinct Persons, if you will, they are one.
I definitely disagree with you on this point. In verses 20, and 21 Paul is referring to individuals. The vessels of honor and dishonor are not nations.
I understand the need to believe that we play some role in our salvation, and I'd be willing to say that I could be wrong. But based on the Scripture I've read, I just don't think we are capable of choosing Jesus outside of the Holy Spirit. Not only do the Scriptures tell us this, but our consciences should tell us the same thing. What do we naturally choose to do? Why do we struggle with sin? If we choose to do what's good, we chose through the power of the Holy Spirit exercising the liberty that God gives. If we choose to do what's bad, then we chose by our free will.
I was reading this morning not even searching for Scriptures for this subject and this is what I read.
1 Peter 2:7-8
New King James Version (NKJV)
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,[a]
“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,â€[b]
8 and
“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.â€[c]
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
It's really tough to get around those bolded words. This thought is consistent with what Jesus said to His disciples.
John 15:16
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit,...
Romans 9:16
New King James Version (NKJV)
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
These verses need to be reconciled with other Scriptures like the ones you pointed out. Another passage that is germane is Philippians 2:13. God's sovereignty does not need to tell us everything. God gives us what we need and we should pray that all men come to repentance as God desires. We know that if God does not choose someone, He is righteous in doing so. God is the Appointer.
- Davies
Jethro Bodine
Member
Anything? Including the command to do all that is written in the Law of Moses?
Your question can be answered by YOURSELF when you answer this question: Under which covenant do you live??
Jethro Bodine
Member
Are you suggesting God is not commanding people to 'love your neighbor as yourself' (Leviticus 19:18 NIV1984) anymore?
So, since we know he is indeed commanding us to do that in this New Covenant, how does it somehow escape being called a 'work of human righteousness or merit'?
Help us to understand what you're driving at.
Hi Davies,
I agree with your explanation of the distinctive natures of the trinity. That is what was meant.
As to Romans 9 I will just stop. I said what I said and It can be taken for what it is. I just pray that you will dig into it a bit and see that Paul was actually Quoting out of Jer 18. And Rom 9:5 is Pauls starting premise for His dissertation to the Jews about their Racial line.
1 Pet 2:7-8 Is in reference to Rom 9:22 the nation of Israel was destined to reject the Stone. why? because of their unbelief. 1 Pet 2:6
Peter actually reconciles this for us in that same verse that you Quoted, why were they appointed to stumble? because they do not believe.
Prov 1:23-29 Reconciles these verses also. They rejected Gods reproof and Knowledge so he appointed them to stumble. Look close as to how God deals with them if the dont choose to turn.
Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
Philippians 2:13 Look close at verse 12 they were already believers. Eph 1:13-14
Paul is talking about their Christian walk and experiential sanctification in the Spirit that dwells in them in verse 13.
Experiential sanctification is the function of the spiritual life after salvation. The function of the spiritual life depends on the three spiritual skills: the filling of the Holy Spirit, the metabolization of metabolized doctrine, and the utilization of the ten problem solving devices. This produces experiential or spiritual righteousness. Our spiritual righteousness is capacity for divine blessing in time. As our spiritual righteousness increases, our capacity increases, and therefore our blessing in time from God increases. When we execute the protocol plan of God by reaching spiritual maturity, then we have the conveyance of our escrow blessings for time because we have the capacity to enjoy them from our spiritual righteousness.
John 15:16...But I CHOSE you.....Chose=Aorist middle indicative of the greek word... exclexasthe . The middle voice says that God did not choose you based on His volition only, but based upon our response to His initiation. 2 Cor 6:2 The appointed comes after the choosing.
The appointment after salvation? To bear fruit. which is experiential sanctification. And being a true disciple of Christ.
To be Honest, Prov 1:23-31 needs to be reconciled with the way your interpreting 1 Pet 2:8; John 15:16.
To me Proverbs 1:23-31 clears it all up.
And I am with you that the Holy Spirit does all the work, the place that I depart is when someone says that God does not extend His mercy to all. He does not have mercy on some because some people will not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. John 6:40
The reason some do not get saved is the persons OWN fault Because Gods offer is to all, and made available to ALL Rom 5:18
That is why Paul penned Rom 9:14....there is no injustice in God. And He would Be unjust if He held back salvation from a creature even just once in time. Ps 9:8; Rom 1:16-17
thisnumbersdisconnected
Member
While the vessels can be seen as individuals in Paul's example, that does mean he has changed his focus from Israel to individuals. The entire three chapter segment of Romans, from 9-11, deals with the prophetic aspects of God dealing with Israel. It is not separate from the rest of Romans, either, but a continuation of many of thoughts and ideas he raised earlier in the epistle. For Romans 9 to be lifted out of this context and offered as proof of what really amounts to "limited" unconditional election and limited atonement is ludicrous, and requires wholesale revision of our understanding of the biblical languages, for example, claiming "all" doesn't really mean "all." The only time that is the case is when it is used in the Pharisees' hyperbole -- exaggerated utterances -- or when there is a qualifier obviously attached that would limit what is meant by all. There is not instance in Koine Greek in which pas does not mean "all" except under those aforementioned circumstances.