Is belief "works"?

[francisdesales]

Here is the problem with" Inorder to have have saving faith, you must have works with it".

Lets say, I just robbed a bank and as I was in my get away car. A preacher comes on the radio and preaches the Gospel. After hearing the Gospel, I feel convicted of my sins and come to a realization that my soul is doomed. After hearing the Gospel, I put saving faith in Jesus and at that very moment an 18 wheeler plows into me and I am dead instantly. I had the faith that would produce works if I had not died. Where would I go? Would you deny that I would go to Heaven and be with God? or am I doomed for eternal damnation?

Don't you think God would have known whether that faith would have been enacted upon to repent in a visible fashion?

The exception does not prove the rule. In your extreme case, we would call upon God to grant mercy upon the man who began a work of repentance in his heart before dying. The thief on the cross performed a work - repentance in public.

Would you agree, that when you are filled with the Holy Spirit, you sare saved?

Yes, but who is FILLED with the Spirit? That means we have emptied ourselves of all attachments to the world. That is a rare find.

Regards

 

[Butch5]

Here is the problem with" Inorder to have have saving faith, you must have works with it".

Lets say, I just robbed a bank and as I was in my get away car. A preacher comes on the radio and preaches the Gospel. After hearing the Gospel, I feel convicted of my sins and come to a realization that my soul is doomed. After hearing the Gospel, I put saving faith in Jesus and at that very moment an 18 wheeler plows into me and I am dead instantly. I had the faith that would produce works if I had not died. Where would I go? Would you deny that I would go to Heaven and be with God? or am I doomed for eternal damnation?

Take the thief on the cross next to Jesus Luke 23:40-43 . Jesus did not say, "Well, first you need to get down from this cross and go do some good works, get babtized, etc... then you will be in paradise with me. No, because of the thiefs faith, the thief was promised to be in paradise with Jesus.

Would you agree, that when you are filled with the Holy Spirit, you sare saved? How are you filled with the Holy Spirit? Do you have to be baptized, do good works? Follow the 10 Commandments? Have faith?

You're argument assumes that salvation is given the instant one believes (mentally). That must be proven. It also constrains God. You're argument also assumes that God will grant that repentance.

"Pistueo" carries the idea of trust, not just mental ascent. To show trust requires time. Additionally, salvation is a continuous process not a one time event.

However, this analogy does not affect the words of the apostle. We can make many analogies but James' words won't change. There is simply no way around what he said. Works simply cannot be the product of faith according to James' argument, it's just not possible.

 

[veryberry]

He means a "faith without works" does not save. The two go together. When you separate them, neither alone are salvific. If a faith exists without works, it is dead and does not save.

He means "faith without works" is dead...and dead faith does not save. There are many people who have 'dead faith' and do good deeds...but those good deeds wont do them any good because their faith is dead...some people do good deeds for selfish reasons and their good deeds are not a product of true faith...just as there are people who have 'dead faith' and lack works because they think that believing like the devils will save them...if you claim to believe and that belief does not produce works then you have 'dead faith' and in this case 'faith' wont save you..it is dead faith.

It is the works which makes the faith salvific. (and vice versus, as Paul states emphatically). The devils BELIEVE that God exists, they certainly have "faith".

Yes. the devils believe (have faith)...but their faith is dead. Your belief must encompass love, trust & commitment...this is living faith...this faith will produce works.
What is the difference between the devils faith & Abrahams faith?
Just works?
No, Abraham's faith had works because he had a faith that encompassed love, trust & commitment. He did these works out of love for, trust in & commitment to God (this is true faith) The devils certainly did not have a faith that encompassed love trust & commitment to God, yet they believe he exists and know that he is God...just as many people believe & know that he is God, yet they are not trusting in him, they are not commited to him, they don't truely love him...this is 'dead faith' & If your faith does not produce works then it is 'dead faith' (which does not save).

You believe that Paul emphatically states that your faith makes your works slavific?
Can you show me where he states this? Do you believe that we are saved by faith and works?

If Abraham did not have works, his faith would have been dead, meaningless. He is touted as a great man of faith BECAUSE of his faith-filled works.

Abraham did these works because he had faith...because he believed God...not like the devils...but with living faith...when he was going to sacrifice Isaac he did this because he had the kind of faith that encompassed love, trust and commitment. Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son because he trusted God...he had a faith that encompassed love for God, trust in God & commitment to God...he put God first (even before his son)..if you have this kind of faith you WILL have works. Unlike dead faith (like the devils have) that lacks in love for God, trust in God & commitment to God. If you don't have works, then you have dead faith (which does not save) because true saving faith WILL produce works.

Not because he thought about God, believed and did nothing...

For a faith to be "living", you have to have works/actions.

If you think about God, believe and do nothing then you have dead faith...dead faith does not save. If you have a living faith then you will have works...if you have dead faith then you wont nesseccarily have works and you certainly won't have works that do you any good...they won't result in you having treasure in heaven because thay are not a product of living faith (which you are saved through) nor will you go to heaven because your faith is dead.

Without which, you have a dead, non-salvific faith. Thus, faith alone is dead.

Yes, faith without works is dead just as the body without the spirit is dead. Faith alone saves, but, the faith that saves is never alone.

It is not works alone or faith alone that saves. It is faith working through love. If you don't have works, your faith is dead. If you don't have faith, your works are dead...

Regards

Works don't save at all...works don't give you life...we are not saved through works but through faith...faith that encompasses love, trust & commitment and produces works...this saving faith is not alone (it is accompanied by works)...but it is the faith alone that saves. Again, faith alone saves, but, the faith that saves is never alone.

Yes, faith without works is dead.

If you don't have faith but have works then your works won't do you any good...you wont have treasure in heaven nor will you go to heaven because you don't have faith. If you have 'dead faith' (belief that does not encompass love, trust & commitment, yet you believe in God & that Jesus died for your sins.) and lets say: you give to the poor to impress people so that you might gain the glory of men & maybe by doing this 'good deed' it will impell people to invest in your business somehow...this also wont do you any good...this is storing up treasure on earth. In order to store up treasure in heaven, you have to have true faith...you have to be doing the works out of love for your neighbor, love for God, trust & commitment to God...so that he might build up the church & his kingdom through you...this is storing up treasure in heaven.

 

[francisdesales]

He means "faith without works" is dead...and dead faith does not save. There are many people who have 'dead faith' and do good deeds...but those good deeds wont do them any good because their faith is dead...some people do good deeds for selfish reasons and their good deeds are not a product of true faith...just as there are people who have 'dead faith' and lack works because they think that believing like the devils will save them...if you claim to believe and that belief does not produce works then you have 'dead faith' and in this case 'faith' wont save you..it is dead faith.

Yes, I pretty much said that. Faith alone is dead. So we agree.

What is the difference between the devils faith & Abrahams faith?
Just works?
No, Abraham's faith had works because he had a faith that encompassed love, trust & commitment.

Trust, love and commitment is broadening the definition of "faith", since I am certain James, who said that the devils had "faith", didn't think it included trust, love and commitment. An intellectual belief in God is insufficient. Feelings of trust, love and commitment are also insufficient, without acts of trust, love and commitment. James makes that clear in the immediately preceding passage on faith. No doubt, those Christians also had "trust, love and commitment" in their minds - but they treated their neighbor poorly. THAT faith did not save, in other words, when no works proceeded from the "trust, love and commitment" that one claimed to have, it was not salvific.

...just as many people believe & know that he is God, yet they are not trusting in him, they are not commited to him, they don't truely love him...this is 'dead faith' & If your faith does not produce works then it is 'dead faith' (which does not save).

We cannot ascertain what the proper level of "mental faith" is sufficient to save. Having wonderful ideas of trust in God is meaningless, if you do not act as if you trust God during difficult times. Saying/claiming you love God mentally is a lie, if you hate your brother by your actions. A person may think he is commited to a Godly way of life, but it is a farce if during the first sign of sacrifice, he puts it aside and lives the way of the world.

Thus, faith, however you define it, is meaningless, unless acted upon in our lives. The act, we will call "work".

You believe that Paul emphatically states that your faith makes your works slavific?
Can you show me where he states this? Do you believe that we are saved by faith and works?

I would have to cite numerous Scriptures to point out that legalistic following of the law does not save, that one must have faith. The heart of Romans and Galatians are based on the idea that legalistic following of the Torah without inner conviction is not salvific. Do you really need citations to that effect?

I am saved by grace, since everything I have, whether faith or works, is moved within me by God. NOTHING I have can be attributed to me alone. With that in mind, yes, my God-moved faith and God-moved works are necessary to enter the Kingdom. Paul says this in Galatians 5. Faith working through love.

Abraham did these works because he had faith...because he believed God...not like the devils...but with living faith...when he was going to sacrifice Isaac he did this because he had the kind of faith that encompassed love, trust and commitment. Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son because he trusted God...he had a faith that encompassed love for God, trust in God & commitment to God...he put God first (even before his son)..if you have this kind of faith you WILL have works.

yes, for without them, you are nothing, as Paul writes to the Corinthians... Faith (even enough to move mountains) without love is worthless.

If you think about God, believe and do nothing then you have dead faith...dead faith does not save. If you have a living faith then you will have works...

Thus, faith is qualified by your works, is it not? Without works, it is proven that you don't have "true faith".

if you have dead faith then you wont nesseccarily have works and you certainly won't have works that do you any good...they won't result in you having treasure in heaven because thay are not a product of living faith (which you are saved through) nor will you go to heaven because your faith is dead.

Clearly, one must have faith. But is it "proper" faith? That is determined by the works. So I would think you need both.

Again, faith alone saves, but, the faith that saves is never alone.

You just contradicted pretty much everything you said in order to save your slogan. "Faith alone saves" No, it doesn't. Drop the slogan. Faith without works is DEAD. It can't save if it is without works.

Regards

 

[dadof10]

Jesus said "Your faith has saved you", not "your faith and good deeds have saved you." You are reading this into the text. Obviously her good deeds showed her true faith which involves love, trust and commitment. It is through this true faith (which involves love , trust & commitment) that she was saved...she was not saved by the deeds that she did to show her true faith (which involved love trust and commitment). Those deeds expressed her love, trust & commitment (true faith). Those deeds did not save her, but the true faith did.

Did Jesus say: "Your washing, wiping, kissing and anointing have saved you."? No, because it was the faith that saved her. The washing, wiping, kissing and anointing were a result of her faith...the faith that saved her...true faith (which involves love trust & commitment) & produces good deeds, unlike dead faith (which is belief w/out the love trust & commitment)...dead faith like the devils...dead faith like the rich man had.

Yes, certainly she has faith. She performed all these actions because of her faith. Those actions did not lead to forgiveness.

These are the actual words:

Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I entered your house, you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45 You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet. 46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment. 47 Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little."

Jesus give the reason her sins were forgiven, FOR (hoti, "because of", more on that later) she "loved much". This is love and faith working together. He didn't say she was saved because she ONLY loved and He didn't say she was saved because she ONLY had faith. It is obvious from the text that forgiveness isn't based on faith alone, but on faith EXPRESSING ITSELF through love. The "expression" is necessary, not to "show" the faith is "true faith", but really NECESSARY for forgiveness. It seems like you agree with this definition of "faith".

When we put our faith in Jesus...we have a change of heart/mind (repentance)...that is what led to forgiveness. She loved & trusted Jesus (she had true saving faith), not only did this faith save her but the faith also resulted in her doing good deeds out of love. These good deeds showed her true faith..

I would like to tackle this whole "showing true faith" myth.

If, as you say, it is possible to "show" a "true faith", then you must believe that you can lose this "true faith" somehow, therefore losing salvation.

If a person has "true faith" and has "shown" this faith (however you wish to define "showing") do you think he can, at some point in the future, lose this faith, even though it's "true"?

If you believe in OSAS you can't believe in the possibility of a "shown faith" because there are NUMEROUS examples of people who "show" their "true faith", yet, fail, even to the point of total unbelief. I know a few, I'm sure you do too.

just like the rich mans unwillingness to sell his belongings, give to the poor & follow Jesus showed his lack of true faith...showed his dead faith...he did not have the same love, trust & commitment (true faith) that this woman had instead he had dead faith (belief w/out love, trust & commitment).

The text doesn't mention faith at all. Elsewhere in Scripture it mentions faith, but not here. Jesus does NOT call this man's faith "dead", He does not make any comment about his faith at all. The man asks a question and gets an answer. It's just not the answer you want, so you are adding your personal theology into the text.

"And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for ('because of' not 'in order to get') the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

The word here is "eis", which is defined:

1) into, unto, to, towards, for, among

Not "because of".

The Greek word for "because" is either "hoti", as I mentioned above or "gar", which is used in the next verse:

"For (gar) the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him."

If the point of Peter's words were that people should get baptized because their sins are ALREADY forgiven, Luke would have used another word here. This is not his point. Baptism is FOR the forgiveness of sins.

Our sins are washed away by the blood of Jesus when we put our faith in him. Baptism is a first step to obediance (obediance out of love not obligation in order to be saved).

Where does Scripture call baptism a "first step to obedience"?

And it symbolizes or represents us dying to our selves, being burried with Christ and rising to new life with Christ. It represents our rebirth.

Where does Scripture call baptism a "symbol"?

Titus 3:5-Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration (washing of rebirth), and renewing of the Holy Ghost (sanctification);

Could "washing of regeneration" possibly refer to water baptism? Why do you interpret it to mean "washing of rebirth"?

It is not the cooperating that saves us but it is the faith...true faith (which involves love, trust & commitment) that saves us...the cooperating is a result of the faith that saves us. We are saved through the faith...not the works...the works are a result of faith...the faith that saves.

I don't see this taught in Scripture either. Sometimes I obey, sometimes I don't and my decisions effect my salvation. This is what James is talking about. Obedience is not absolute. the "sola-fide" crowd seems to think when you have a "saving faith", you will make all the right decisions and do all the right things all the time. Even though people have "saving faith', they still sin and this sin effects salvation.

I am telling you my interpretation of the text. The man asks What he must DO to inherit eternal life...it is obviouse that he believes he can earn salvation through works because Jesus goes on to list commandments & the man claims to have kept them.

Where does he say this? It's not obvious at all. He asks a question, and get's an answer. Do you think he knew what Jesus' answer would be? The point isn't the man's question, it is Jesus' answer, which is NOT faith alone. Tell me, veryberry, would your theology allow you to answer as Jesus did? If not, your theology is not in sync with Jesus' teachings.

If the man saw it as a matter of the heart or faith at all then he would have gladly sold, given & followed (out of love)...but he didn't want to do this...he would rather have followed a set of rules to earn salvation...so Jesus gave him some rules that he knew the man would not follow (because he did not have true faith) to show the man that he could not earn salvation through works but that he needed faith.

Huh? What words of these verses give you this impression?

I agree with this. Jesus knew this mans heart. When he asked "Why call me good..." he is making a point. Jesus is not denying his deity, but trying to get the man to see who he is. This obviously also lets the man know that he (the man) is not good because nobody is good but God.

Wow, I did not say that the man said he could make himself worthy, nor did I say that Jesus told him he was not able to keep the commandments. take another look:
Then, knowing that the man thinks that he is able to make himself worthy by following the commandments, Jesus shows the man that he is not able to keep the commandments.
Again, I am not giving you word for word text...I am giving you my interpretation of the text.

I know. I want to know what in the text makes you think the man "thinks that he is able to make himself worthy by following the commandments".

 

[veryberry]

You're argument assumes that salvation is given the instant one believes (mentally). That must be proven. It also constrains God. You're argument also assumes that God will grant that repentance.

I do not argue that salvation is givin when someone merely 'believes' (simply acknowledges). I "believed" for many years, with 'dead faith' and was not saved. You must believe with a faith that encompasses love, trust & commitment.
Nor do I "assume" that God will "grant" you repentance. Repentance is a change of heart/mind...when you put true faith in Jesus, you are trusting in him alone...no longer doing things your way...no longer trusting in yourself, your works, your church, but trusting in him...commited to him..submitting to him...this is a change of heart/mind (repentance)...when we have this kind of faith (not dead faith) he makes you a new creature, you are filled with the holy spirit and you are being sanctified.

"Pistueo" carries the idea of trust, not just mental ascent. To show trust requires time. Additionally, salvation is a continuous process not a one time event.

I too carry the idea of trust, not just mentally acknowledging that God exists & Jesus died for our sins...this is why I say your faith must encompass love, trust & commitment (true faith). Dead faith does not save.
Yes, it takes time to show the trust that you already have. However, God knows when we have this trust (true faith) and he saves us from condemnation when we have this faith that encompasses love, trust & commitment.
We are saved from condemnation when we put faith in him. We are being saved from sin while we are being sanctified (continuous). We will be saved when we die from wrath in hell.

However, this analogy does not affect the words of the apostle. We can make many analogies but James' words won't change. There is simply no way around what he said. Works simply cannot be the product of faith according to James' argument, it's just not possible.

Why was Abraham willing to sacrifice his son (that he dearly loved) on the alter? Why did Abraham do works? Was it because he had faith in God? Was it because he loved God, trusted God & was commited to God? Was it because he believed God with a faith that encompassed love trust & commitment? If so then indeed works are a product or result of faith...not dead faith...but a living faith. This living faith will result in works...Why? because you love, trust & are commited to the Lord...therefore you will have works..these works will show your faith. Faith without works is dead. Indeed, James' words will not change there is no way around James' words...that I agree with! Pauls words will not change either...there is no way around either one.

Romans 4:1-6
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

You must take the Bible as a whole. We should not be trying to make the word of God fit a religion. We should be testing our religion with the word of God...this is why organized religion can be so dangerous. It can put you in chains. We are saved apart from our works and faith without works is dead...both of these are true.

 

[Butch5]

I do not argue thatsalvation is givin when someone merely 'believes' (simply acknowledges). I"believed" for many years, with 'dead faith' and was not saved. Youmust believe with a faith that encompasses love, trust & commitment.
Nor do I "assume" that God will "grant" you repentance.Repentance is a change of heart/mind...when you put true faith in Jesus, youare trusting in him alone...no longer doing things your way...no longertrusting in yourself, your works, your church, but trusting in him...commitedto him..submitting to him...this is a change of heart/mind (repentance)...whenwe have this kind of faith (not dead faith) he makes you a new creature, youare filled with the holy spirit and you are being sanctified.

But your analogy does argue that. What isthe difference between a faith that encompasses love, trust and commitmentversus dead faith?
You’ve basically said the same thing withmore words. Where does Scripture say one only needs to believe and nothing elseto be saved?

I too carry the idea oftrust, not just mentally acknowledging that God exists & Jesus died for oursins...this is why I say your faith must encompass love, trust &commitment (true faith). Dead faith does not save.
Yes, it takes time to show the trust that you already have. However, Godknows when we have this trust (true faith) and he saves us from condemnationwhen we have this faith that encompasses love, trust & commitment.
We are saved from condemnation when we put faith in him. We are beingsaved from sin while we are being sanctified (continuous). We will besaved when we die from wrath in hell.

I think we need to define what trust means.

Whywas Abraham willing to sacrifice his son (that he dearly loved) on the alter?Why did Abraham do works? Was it because he had faith in God? Was it because heloved God, trusted God & was commited to God? Was it because he believedGod with a faith that encompassed love trust & commitment? If so thenindeed works are a product or result of faith...not dead faith...but a livingfaith. This living faith will result in works...Why? because you love, trust& are commited to the Lord...therefore you will have works..these workswill show your faith. Faith without works is dead. Indeed, James' words willnot change there is no way around James' words...that I agree with! Pauls wordswill not change either...there is no way around either one.

Romans 4:1-6
2Forif Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not beforeGod.3 For what saith thescripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him forrighteousness.4Nowto him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.5Butto him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth theungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.6Evenas David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom Godimputeth righteousness without works,

You must take the Bible as a whole. We should not be trying to make the word ofGod fit a religion. We should be testing our religion with the word ofGod...this is why organized religion can be so dangerous. It can put you inchains. We are saved apart from our works and faith without works isdead...both of these are true.

I agree both of those statements are true, however, the typical understanding of Paul’s words is not correct. Paul is not arguing that man’s works play no role in his salvation. Paul’s argument isdealing with an issue that was a problem in his day. That problem was theJudaizers who were insisting that it was necessary to keep the Mosaic Law inaddition to faith in Christ. That is not typically a problem with modernGentiles. The claim that Paul is saying a man’s works play no role in hissalvation contradicts not only Jesus and the other apostles, but also Paulhimself.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurestup unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteousjudgment of God; 6 Who willrender to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who bypatient continuance in well doing seekfor glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But untothem that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness,indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul ofman that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first,and also to the Gentile: (Rom 2:1 KJV)

Here Paul flatly contradicts theargument that a man’s works play no role in his salvation.


However, as I said, works cannot be the product of faith according to James. If there are no works faith is dead, therefore, works must be present for faith to be alive and produce. In the Greek text James literally says, I will show you my faith out of my works. if faith comes out of works then works must be present before anything can be produced by faith. Works show faith is real because they are a part of faith, just like the id strip in paper money proves the money is real. If the strip isn't there the money isn't real.

 

[veryberry]

Trust, love and commitment is broadening the definition of "faith", since I am certain James, who said that the devils had "faith", didn't think it included trust, love and commitment. An intellectual belief in God is insufficient. Feelings of trust, love and commitment are also insufficient, without acts of trust, love and commitment. James makes that clear in the immediately preceding passage on faith. No doubt, those Christians also had "trust, love and commitment" in their minds - but they treated their neighbor poorly. THAT faith did not save, in other words, when no works proceeded from the "trust, love and commitment" that one claimed to have, it was not salvific.

I'm not defining the word faith when I talk about a faith that encompasses love trust and commitment. I NEVER said feelings of trust love & commitment! I am talking about actual love trust & commitment...not assumed feeling that don't result in works. Those christians had "feelings" of love trust & commitment? If they treated their neighbor poorly then they just assumed they had love trust & commitment...based on feelings...you need actual love trust & commitment...that results in works...not assumed trust love & commitment...of course it has to be real...& if it is real then it will show in your actions (works).

We cannot ascertain what the proper level of "mental faith" is sufficient to save. Having wonderful ideas of trust in God is meaningless, if you do not act as if you trust God during difficult times. Saying/claiming you love God mentally is a lie, if you hate your brother by your actions. A person may think he is commited to a Godly way of life, but it is a farce if during the first sign of sacrifice, he puts it aside and lives the way of the world.

Agreed, if you truly love, trust & are commited to God then it will show in your actions. If you think you are commited but you really are not commited to God it is a lie...you have to actually be commited to him & if you are your actions will show this. Faith without works is dead.

Thus, faith, however you define it, is meaningless, unless acted upon in our lives. The act, we will call "work".

Yes, if you have dead faith that does not result in works (acts)...then that faith is meaningless. When I say dead faith or true faith...I am not defining the word 'faith' but showing that your faith can be dead (like James talks about) but not all faith is dead...Abraham had a faith that was not dead...this I am describing as true faith

I would have to cite numerous Scriptures to point out that legalistic following of the law does not save, that one must have faith. The heart of Romans and Galatians are based on the idea that legalistic following of the Torah without inner conviction is not salvific. Do you really need citations to that effect?

Thats not what I asked, I asked for scripture that supports your belief that faith makes your works slavific.
because you stated that: "It is the works which makes the faith salvific. (and vice versus, as Paul states emphatically). The devils BELIEVE that God exists, they certainly have "faith"."
I already know that legalistic following of the law does not save. That one must have faith & I am aware that legalistic following w/out inner conviction is not slavific. I do not need scripture that supports this nor did I ask for it.

I am saved by grace, since everything I have, whether faith or works, is moved within me by God. NOTHING I have can be attributed to me alone. With that in mind, yes, my God-moved faith and God-moved works are necessary to enter the Kingdom. Paul says this in Galatians 5. Faith working through love.

I agree, we are saved by grace. I agree, he moves us, everything we have is because of him...our faith is God-moved, our works are God-moved.

I put faith in God because I finally saw that I was sinfull, I finally saw that my way was no good...I saw that no matter how hard I tried (in my own strength) I would just mess up...I could not make myself good enough (worthy), I always fell short. I finally turned to God and really saw my need for Jesus...and I put my trust in him. I had a change of heart/mind. Before this I had always "believed" but my faith was dead I thought I trusted him..but when it came down to it...I was really doing things MY WAY. Since this moment that I really put my trust in him I have been commited to him & HIS WAY. Although, while here on earth I am fighting this battle with the flesh & connot be perfect in my flesh...I know that I am made righteouse through Jesus. I know that I can trust him and I love him...so I follow him and he leads me & he is sanctifying me...he moves me to works..and I do these works because I trust him, I love him & I love my neighbor. I know that these works do not play a part in saving me...but that I am doing them out of love because he first loved me.

Proverbs 3:5-6
5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

yes, for without them, you are nothing, as Paul writes to the Corinthians... Faith (even enough to move mountains) without love is worthless.

Agreed, that faith without love is worthless. 'works' are not 'love' but they can be done in love & sometimes they are not done in love.

Thus, faith is qualified by your works, is it not? Without works, it is proven that you don't have "true faith".

Works justify (prove) your faith before others...they show your faith...they work w/ your faith to make your faith perfect. Read verse 18 in James 2...James is talking about showing faith to others. Works do not take part in justifying you (making you righteous) before God. The only verse that talks about righteousness before God is verse 23 and it says he was made righteous because he believed. We know that although we will be judged by our works, works do not take part in justifying us (making us righteous) before God. When we have "true faith" and we do works, this glorifies God. He is doing these works through us. These are to glorify him...to build up the body of Christ & to build up his kingdom. they are not done to take part in our own salvation but are done out of faith...out of love...love for eachother & for God. Doing works wont help you enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 4:2-6
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Clearly, one must have faith. But is it "proper" faith? That is determined by the works. So I would think you need both.

What is "proper" faith? Is it the same thing that I refer to as 'true faith'?

You just contradicted pretty much everything you said in order to save your slogan. "Faith alone saves" No, it doesn't. Drop the slogan. Faith without works is DEAD. It can't save if it is without works.

Regards

Thanks for your kind advice! When I say "faith alone saves, but, the faith that saves is never alone." Here is what I mean: It is the faith alone/apart from works that saves...but this faith that saves you will produce works so this faith is not alone...but it is still the faith (apart from the works/alone) that saves...not the works. Agreed, faith without works is dead.
We know that the theif on the cross was saved because of his faith...not because of his work...not because he proclaimed his repentance in public...but because he actually was repentant...of course God knows that this mans faith would have resulted in works. and to answer your question about someone who comes to repentance in his heart right before he dies...of course God knows he had a faith that would have resulted in works...that is kind of my point...this shows that it is the faith that saves apart from works.
Also, sorry if I used the wrong terminology when I said "filled" with the spirit. I will rephrase for you...when you are 'born of the spirit'...'baptized with the spirit'...when you have true faith a conversion of the heart/mind and are born again.
My point with this is that this is when you are saved. not after you get baptized & do works.

 

[dadof10]

Really? Where in the text does it say this?

Yes, really. What does "One thing MORE..." mean to you? If He is ADDING one more thing to "keep the commandments", don't you think that assumes He has accepted the premise?

So, because Jesus does not say "no you haven't" this automatically means that he accepts that the ruler has kept the 10 commandments? Do you really believe that this man kept the 10 commandments? He loved money more than God...money was an idol. The first 4 commandments are about love for God...this man put money before God...he chose money over God when he walked away.

I believe he kept the commandments as you and I keep them, fallibly. I don't think he was making a theological statement on the status of his soul, only that he has kept them since he was a child. He doesn't say he kept them perfectly, and Jesus doesn't say "that's impossible".

Matthew 6:19-21-19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

This mans treasure was obviously his wealth on earth...therefore, where was his heart? Remember Jesus also said:
Luke 18:22-22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.â€

Matthew 6:24- 24 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

This man loved money, he was devoted to money...therefore, was he able to love God & be devoted to God?

Right, lack one thing for WHAT? The obvious answer is eternal life. You are focused on the wrong thing. Instead of focusing on the ruler, you should be focused on Jesus answer, which is NOT "have faith in me".

I did not say "you still lack one thing" means he cannot follow the commandments. Look again:

Then when Jesus says,“You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.â€

This shows the man that he is not good & cannot follow the commandments.

OK. How does "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me" show "the man that he is not good & cannot follow the commandments"? Is that better?

The text does not say that Jesus accepts that he kept the commandments.

You still lack one thing. He added three somethings not one something.

Jesus did not say:
"You still lack one thing and that one thing is, Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.â€
He said:
"You still lack one thing.(period) Then Jesus tells him to sell give & follow (three things)...why? Because this would take true faith (which the man did not have) & then the man would have treasure in heaven (if he did these things)...but the mans treasure was on earth (not heaven), he was storing up treasure on earth (not in heaven). He could not serve two masters...he would hate the one & love the other...he was devoted to one & despised the other.

The "one thing" is "Sell everything you have and give to the poor". I don't know what else to say here. This is what the text says.

The first 4 commandments are about love for God. Commandments 6-10 are about love for your neighbor. Jesus' 2 great commandments are:
1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
If this man loved God w/ all his heart, soul & might then he would have put God before his money...if this man loved his neighbor as himself he would have given to the poor. But the man showed that he did not love God w/ all his heart, soul & might, & that he did not love his neighbor as himself.

When I say:

...Jesus knows that money is an idol for the man so he uses this to convict the man...This also shows the man what he needs for eternal life...If the man were to sell, give & follow...then that would show his true faith (that he got eternal life through) and those acts that show his true faith would have gotten him 'treasure in heaven'...not 'eternal life' which he got through Faith alone.

I am telling you my interpretation, not word for word text.

Again, I know. The text does not say he got eternal life "through Faith alone". This is a false assumption on your part. Nowhere does the text bear out this interpretation.

He can inherit eternal life through true faith (one thing) which will produce a desire to uphold the law and will produce good deeds such as giving to the poor (many things), the works (as a result of faith) give him treasure in heaven...when done as a result of faith (love, trust & commitment)...not out of trying to obtain salvation, seeking the glory of men or any other selfish reason.

I know this is your interpretation. It must be an interpretation taking into consideration your interpretations of OTHER verses of Scripture, because this is nowhere in the text of the verses we are discussing.

The text does not say that selling & giving is the one thing he lacks for inheriting eternal life. You are reading this into the text.

It's the one thing, that's what the text says.

"You still lack one thing, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.â€

Again, I don't know what else to say.

Ephesians 2:8-9-8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

This does not say "works OF THE LAW" nor do the verses that do say "works of the law, say: "works of the mosaic law minus the 10 commandments" you are reading these things into the text.

Look at the context:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God -- 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands -- 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ.

Again, the topic is primarily circumcision, not all deeds done.

this does not imply that verse 6 (And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.) is referring to only the mosaic law minus the ten comandments, baptism, and good deeds. The point of verse 6 is that you can not work for grace...no matter how you are trying to work for it...grace is unmeritted...therefore you can not work for it, whether you are trying to work for it using commandments, good deeds, ceremonial law or anything else...grace is unmeritted...you can not earn it...you can only recieve it through faith.

Agreed. I only ask why you limit God's Grace to faith only? Why can't keeping the commandments, charity baptism, faith etc. ALL be due to God's Grace?

Through the moral law (10 commandments) man can see how holy God is and how sinfull he (man) is. The moral law shows man that he is sinfull and thus he might see his need for a savior. Christ led a sinless life and fulfilled the moral law. This does not give us a license to sin.

Again, agreed. I think keeping the commandments and charity fall under the heading of "moral law", which is NOT what Paul means by "works" or "works of the law". If you think that the word "works", when contrasted with faith by Paul, refer to all deeds, simply show me where this is taught in Scripture.

When we put faith in Jesus his righteousness is imputed to us & justifies us. It is his righteosness (not ours) that keeps the law from condemning us when we put trust in Jesus.
In OT moral law would lead man to ceremonial law (priesthood, sacrifices, tabernacle). Man could find a solution to sin through faith in what the ceremonial laws represented which was Jesus who would die for us as the lamb of God. Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial laws when he died for us..he is our ultimate sacrifice and he is our high priest who leaves us with the gift of the holy spirit.
No man can or could perfectly keep the law...the law points us to Jesus...who is the way! We are made righteous through Jesus...not through law, baptism or good deeds...we do not do these works out of obligation to be saved, but, we do them joyfully out of love & gratitude..because of our faith in Jesus...because we see what Jesus has done for us..he saves us not because we deserve it but because of grace...because he loves us.

Why do you equate "law" with baptism and good deeds? This is a erroneous comparison, unless you can show from Scripture where "law" or "works", when compared to faith, is used in reference to good deeds or baptism.

 

[dadof10]

Here is the problem with" Inorder to have have saving faith, you must have works with it".

Lets say, I just robbed a bank and as I was in my get away car. A preacher comes on the radio and preaches the Gospel. After hearing the Gospel, I feel convicted of my sins and come to a realization that my soul is doomed. After hearing the Gospel, I put saving faith in Jesus and at that very moment an 18 wheeler plows into me and I am dead instantly. I had the faith that would produce works if I had not died. Where would I go? Would you deny that I would go to Heaven and be with God? or am I doomed for eternal damnation?

Take the thief on the cross next to Jesus Luke 23:40-43 . Jesus did not say, "Well, first you need to get down from this cross and go do some good works, get babtized, etc... then you will be in paradise with me. No, because of the thiefs faith, the thief was promised to be in paradise with Jesus.

Ok. Now I'm confused. Are you making the argument that we are saved by faith alone, without works, or is a "saving faith" always accompanied by works, as you've been saying? I think we are both in the same boat with your examples, as they don't "show saving faith".

I believe, as you do, that in these two examples the men were saved, but, as Francis said, these are extreme examples. Deathbed confessions can hardly be looked upon as the norm and taken as the standard. The situation of both these men has to be taken into consideration.



Sent from my Motorola Galaxy s3 using Tapatalk 2

 

[francisdesales]

Thanks for your kind advice!

Sorry, after I re-read my post, it sounded a bit harsh, that was not my intent, I'm a bit rusty...

I guess I was frustrated, because up until the "slogan", it appeared that we largely agreed, with Scriptures - that faith without works was dead.

When I say "faith alone saves, but, the faith that saves is never alone." Here is what I mean: It is the faith alone/apart from works that saves...but this faith that saves you will produce works so this faith is not alone...but it is still the faith (apart from the works/alone) that saves...not the works. Agreed, faith without works is dead.

Thus, faith alone (which is without works) is dead. How can faith alone/apart from works be salvific if the Bible ITSELF explicitly says otherwise?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. james 2:17

I don't know how much clearer James could have been. Something dead cannot save. To be salvific, faith must be matched with something else. Otherwise, it is the "faith" that James was saying did NOT save:

What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? James 2:14

The answer is "no"...

We know that the theif on the cross was saved because of his faith...not because of his work...

Let's address that, since so many use that example as the "proof", despite what James says explicitly (I guess the thief cancels out the Scriptures written?)

First, as I said, the exception does not make the rule. Sometimes, the circumstances of life do not permit what is ordinarily expected. That is poor scriptural interpretation. Let me give you an example that Jesus refers to;

David and his men were hungry and out of food. They ate the consecrated bread that was only lawful to eat for priests. (Lev 24:5,9; Matt 12:1-12) Jesus uses this example to admonish the Pharisees for their concern for the Sabbath. But if David had gone every day to eat the showbread, making it a rule of his life rather than the exception, he would have been in sin and condemned by Jesus.

Similarly, the thief, who was "pre-occupied" on the cross, was not expected to follow "ordinary" requirements. Thus, we should not use the thief as the ordinary principle. Death-bed conversions, while not the norm, can be acceptable to God.

But did the thief REALLY have no works? While he certainly was not expected to come down from the cross and spread the Gospel in Corinth, he certainly DID do works of repentance and evangelization and displayed trust in the Lord.

The good thief rebukes the unrepentant thief. He does this, despite others jeering Jesus and telling Him to save Himself. "whoever acknowledges me before men, I will acknowledge him before the Father in heaven" (matt 10:32) Acknowledging God in public is a "work" moved by God's Spirit

The good thief asks the other "don't you fear God"? Certainly, this implies that HE did fear God. Perhaps he feared God for some time before his sentencing. We don't know when he committed his crime and when he was reconciled to God. Perhaps he had a prison conversion. We cannot presume that he was wicked until that moment he met Jesus on the cross (which is unlikely, as I will soon speak of). The thief is one of many who are blessed with salvation and fear God.

Next, he tells the other thief that they have "been punished justly". He is able to convict himself of sin before God. He notes "this man has done nothing wrong", refering to Jesus. Now, this suggests that the thief DID know Jesus beforehand. Perhaps even heard Him preach. Where would he get this knowledge that Jesus had done nothing wrong?

Next, he tells Jesus "remember me when you come into your kingdom". Again, how would the thief know about the teachings of Jesus and the Kingdom - Jesus never speaks about them from the cross. It seems obvious that the thief had heard Jesus preach before and understood His purpose. It seems that the thief was prepared for this moment.

Finally, Jesus states that the thief would be with Him in paradise. Thus, Jesus takes the man's statement as an admission of guilt and He forgives the man. The THIEF initiates the conversation. As God blessed Cornelius in Acts 10 for his fear and devotion, so Jesus blesses the thief.

There is thus no reason to state that even THIS example is truly a "saved by faith alone" theology. He already had faith in God demonstrated by his fear in God expressed to the other thief. He put his faith to action by reaching out to Jesus in contrition, however limited it was in his situation. The thief had come to Jesus in repentance, seeking forgiveness. And so, faith was not "alone".

As to the rest, salvation is an ongoing event. "We are saved", "we are being saved", and "we will be saved" are terms the NT uses often enough.

Regards

 

[WIP]

Thus, faith alone (which is without works) is dead. How can faith alone/apart from works be salvific if the Bible ITSELF explicitly says otherwise?

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. james 2:17

I don't know how much clearer James could have been. Something dead cannot save. To be salvific, faith must be matched with something else. Otherwise, it is the "faith" that James was saying did NOT save:

What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? James 2:14

I won't get involved too much in this but I would like to hear some thoughts about this. I haven't seen James as describing how one is saved so much as describing what "faith" and "works" look like. A faith without works is dead and likewise works without faith are worthless. In this way I can reconcile that I am saved only through faith in Christ and not by my works but my works demonstrate my faith. If I claim to have faith but do not works, I am a liar as my faith is not demonstrated in my works. If I truly have faith, the works will come forth.

 

[Butch5]

I won't get involved too much in this but I would like to hear some thoughts about this. I haven't seen James as describing how one is saved so much as describing what "faith" and "works" look like. A faith without works is dead and likewise works without faith are worthless. In this way I can reconcile that I am saved only through faith in Christ and not by my works but my works demonstrate my faith. If I claim to have faith but do not works, I am a liar as my faith is not demonstrated in my works. If I truly have faith, the works will come forth.

Hi Wip,

I agree with your statement. The point I was making is that works are not a product of faith. Many who argue that point would also argue that one is saved by faith alone. I believe this is derived form a misunderstanding of Paul's words. Thus they argue that works are a product of living faith. However, James' argument doesn't allow that interpretation. If faith without works is dead and cannot save, then works must precede a faith that can save. There's no way to get around this fact. In this argument it is works which give life to this faith making it a living faith and not a dead faith. In the Greek text James literally said, 'I will show you my faith out of my works.' If his faith is coming out of his works then the works must first exist.

 

[francisdesales]

I won't get involved too much in this but I would like to hear some thoughts about this. I haven't seen James as describing how one is saved so much as describing what "faith" and "works" look like. A faith without works is dead and likewise works without faith are worthless. In this way I can reconcile that I am saved only through faith in Christ and not by my works but my works demonstrate my faith. If I claim to have faith but do not works, I am a liar as my faith is not demonstrated in my works. If I truly have faith, the works will come forth.

Well, James actually does say twice that works justify:

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. v 24
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? v21

I am not advocating a 'works' salvation, but James is indeed talking about salvation/justification, providing corrective to the antinomians who misread Paul.

I think we should focus on the fact that both faith and works, the type James approves, are a result of God's Spirit. I don't see faith as a "conveyor belt" that yields "works" automatically. Otherwise, James' writing to Christians in chapter 2 is moot. Phil 2:12-13 gives the best explanation in Scripture of what happens. God moves my will to love, obey and trust in Him. All is from grace. It doesn't really matter "which comes first", as long as we say "Yes" to God moving our will to do whatever He has decided is best for us.

That is why it is easy for me to say "faith and works" required for salvation. One without the other is insufficient.

Regards

 

[WIP]

Thank you for the replies but now I have other questions. Justification and salvation are not interchangeable are they? I understand these as two different things.

 

[Butch5]

Thank you for the replies but now I have other questions. Justification and salvation are not interchangeable are they? I understand these as two different things.

Not the way I understand it. Technically, being justified is an acquittal whereas sanctify means to set apart. I believe one can be both and not be saved in the end. I believe one is saved (enters a relationship) when Justified but being saved in the end is conditional upon one's obedience to Christ's commands.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Not the way I understand it. Technically, being justified is an acquittal whereas sanctify means to set apart. I believe one can be both and not be saved in the end.

Why in the world would God set apart someone if he/she were not saved?

 

[francisdesales]

Thank you for the replies but now I have other questions. Justification and salvation are not interchangeable are they? I understand these as two different things.

I am not so sure, but it appears that are synonymous in Scriptures. The Scriptures use words in the past tense, present and future tense to describe "I was saved, I am being saved, I will be saved". Justification also seems ongoing, as in Abraham, who was just in God's eyes at least on three separate occasions, according to the NT; Gen 12, 15, 22. Likely Abraham was not being "re-justified" on each of those occasions, but continuing to be seen as just in God's eyes as each new difficulty was overcome.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Why in the world would God set apart someone if he/she were not saved?

Set apart to do what? Pontius Pilate was 'set apart' by God - Jesus states that Pilate would have no power, if not given from above. Do you think Pilate was saved? Perhaps, who knows. God also 'sets apart' people for wrath.

By the way, I am not advocating double predestination, so no need to flame me for that...

Regards

 

[WIP]

Thanks for the replies. As expected we do have our different views and it gives me good food for thought.