So that means you believe that God saved you based upon your work of Righteousness, since that's what placing faith Christ is.Lol . . . NO!
Yes!
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Is believing/faith a work ?
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
2nd Timothy Group
Member
I don't know why you aren't hearing me, but no . . . I do no work at all. My Salvation is entirely the Work of God.
John 6:29 ESV - "Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."
Why are you persistent in your refusal to accept my beliefs? Why do you continue to put words in my mouth that are totally opposite of what I am saying?
2nd Timothy Group
Member
I am born of God and not of myself.
John 1:12-13 NIV - "Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God-- children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God."
I am a result of what the Bible clearly teaches about His Holy Elect . . . aren't you?
Hey you the one being inconsistent, you plainly said no one is saved until they place faith in Christ, and you said nobody is saved by Christs death alone.
Here are your statements:
I asked you:
You replied:
Then another time I asked you:
You replied:
2nd Timothy Group
Member
You also, and may God be pleased to deliver you from your inconsistency.Have a great day, Brightfame52!
2nd Timothy Group
Member
That was a nice little jab. Thanks!
2nd Timothy Group
Member
brightfame52 - Here's a little story for you. It is one of my favorites.
2 Samuel 16:5-12 NLT - "As King David came to Bahurim, a man came out of the village cursing them. It was Shimei son of Gera, from the same clan as Saul's family. He threw stones at the king and the king's officers and all the mighty warriors who surrounded him. "Get out of here, you murderer, you scoundrel!" he shouted at David. "The LORD is paying you back for all the bloodshed in Saul's clan. You stole his throne, and now the LORD has given it to your son Absalom. At last you will taste some of your own medicine, for you are a murderer!"
"Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king?" Abishai son of Zeruiah demanded. "Let me go over and cut off his head!" "No!" the king said. "Who asked your opinion, you sons of Zeruiah! If the LORD has told him to curse me, who are you to stop him?" Then David said to Abishai and to all his servants, "My own son is trying to kill me. Doesn't this relative of Saul have even more reason to do so? Leave him alone and let him curse, for the LORD has told him to do it. And perhaps the LORD will see that I am being wronged and will bless me because of these curses today."
David
2 Samuel 16:5-12 NLT - "As King David came to Bahurim, a man came out of the village cursing them. It was Shimei son of Gera, from the same clan as Saul's family. He threw stones at the king and the king's officers and all the mighty warriors who surrounded him. "Get out of here, you murderer, you scoundrel!" he shouted at David. "The LORD is paying you back for all the bloodshed in Saul's clan. You stole his throne, and now the LORD has given it to your son Absalom. At last you will taste some of your own medicine, for you are a murderer!"
"Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king?" Abishai son of Zeruiah demanded. "Let me go over and cut off his head!" "No!" the king said. "Who asked your opinion, you sons of Zeruiah! If the LORD has told him to curse me, who are you to stop him?" Then David said to Abishai and to all his servants, "My own son is trying to kill me. Doesn't this relative of Saul have even more reason to do so? Leave him alone and let him curse, for the LORD has told him to do it. And perhaps the LORD will see that I am being wronged and will bless me because of these curses today."
David
Jethro Bodine
Member
Show me in the Bible where it says that ANYTHING you do to be justified, even believing, is the works gospel.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Your misunderstanding is that you think you have to be born again to be exposed to and experience the Holy Spirit. And, since you believe that only born again people can have the illumination of the Holy Spirit, then you also have to believe that born again people can fall away.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age (you say only born again people can be that)— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.
Jethro Bodine
Member
So is joy. But the person in the Parable of the Sower who Reformists say really isn't born again had joy.
Luke 8:13
13The seeds on rocky ground are those who hear the word and receive it with joy, but they have no root. They believe for a season, but in the time of testing, they fall away.
So, once again, your belief about only born again people being illuminated by the Spirit, and thus having the fruit of the Spirit, demands that you also believe that born again people illuminated by the Spirit who have the fruit of the Spirit can fall away.
2nd Timothy Group
Member
There is a difference between human joy and Spiritual Joy just as there is a difference from human love to Spiritual Love . . . there is a vast difference between the two.
Ive showed you what Im going to show you
Dont see how this denies that Faith is a fruit of the Spirit Per Gal 5:22
Yeah Joy is a fruit of the Spirit, its also a fruit of the flesh. A person spiritually dead can have joy, faith too, however what a spiritually dead person cant have is Faith or Joy that is the fruit of the Spirit.
jethro
Once again, Job informs us that the hypocrite has joy but its just for a moment Job 20:5
that the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment?
This goes right along with what Jesus is saying in the parable, the joy there is short lived, proving all the long they were nothing but a hypocrite, had no real spiritual root.
Once again, Job informs us that the hypocrite has joy but its just for a moment Job 20:5
that the triumphing of the wicked is short, and the joy of the hypocrite but for a moment?
This goes right along with what Jesus is saying in the parable, the joy there is short lived, proving all the long they were nothing but a hypocrite, had no real spiritual root.
brightframe52,
Regarding the possibility of someone saved falling away, he doesn't seem to be able to comprehend, or he is willfully ignorant of Heb 6:6 & 6:9 and 1Pe 1:5. In 1Pe 1:5, we are informed that it is God himself who keeps the saved until the end so they cannot fall away. Until he realizes this, he will never, ever be able to understand Hebrews 6:4 - 6. We can also see in Heb. V6, that its subjects are only those who have been saved. We can clearly see this because it informs us that to renew them again to repentance (were that possible or needed - which it couldn't be), would require a new crucifixion of Christ -- however, only, and all, of those who have been saved (alone) were covered by His crucifixion, so speaking theoretically, were they to fall away, they would then be in need of a new crucifixion of Christ to resave them, which, of course, would be impossible.
IOW, and to try to reduce it to its fundamental parts: from Heb 6:6, we know that they are of the saved; from 1 Pe 1:5, we know that those saved cannot fall away; from Heb 6:9, we know that 6:6, 6:9, and 1 Pe 1:5 are linked because the saved are the subjects of each of them, and therefore, impossible for any of Heb 6:4 - 6 to actually happen to them.
So, should someone not follow the rules the Bible sets forth for its own interpretation, it should be of no surprise when they draw incorrect conclusions.
Hope this makes sense. If not, let me know and I'll try to clarify.
[Heb 6:6, 9 KJV]
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. ...
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Jethro Bodine
Member
No, it doesn't deny it. What you're not getting is you can experience the Holy Spirit without having Him in you in salvation. I proved this to you from Hebrews 6:4-6. Oh, but you're going to say the enlightened people in that passage are born again people. Fine. But now that means born again people can fall away. See, reformed doctrine loses on both counts here. If Hebrews 6:4-6 is about not born again people then it means not born again people can be illuminated by the Spirit, completely contrary to Reformed doctrine. If it's about born again people then it means born again people can fall away, which is also completely contrary to Reformed doctrine. Either way, Reformed doctrine fails.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Well, there's nothing for you to show me.
No where in the Bible does it say, or even suggest that believing is a work of the self righteous works gospel. Yet, Reformed theology says it is.
rogerg
Hey Roger glad you chimed in. That passage has been dealt with by you several times, and I have also addressed it numerous times. To be honest it has little to do with the topic, if a person conditions salvation on anything he does, be it believe in Christ, its works, and its condemned. But I agree with you on that passage, I believe its referring to the stony ground hearer who can come up under the influences of the preaching of the word, and even be naturally enlightened and receive it with joy, but neverthless, since he had no root in himslf, meaning no spiritual life from Christ, they eventually fall away. Matt 13:20-21
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended
Luke says this person falls away notice Lk 8:13
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away
Thats what Heb 6:4-6 is about in my opinion
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hey Roger glad you chimed in. That passage has been dealt with by you several times, and I have also addressed it numerous times. To be honest it has little to do with the topic, if a person conditions salvation on anything he does, be it believe in Christ, its works, and its condemned. But I agree with you on that passage, I believe its referring to the stony ground hearer who can come up under the influences of the preaching of the word, and even be naturally enlightened and receive it with joy, but neverthless, since he had no root in himslf, meaning no spiritual life from Christ, they eventually fall away. Matt 13:20-21
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended
Luke says this person falls away notice Lk 8:13
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away
Thats what Heb 6:4-6 is about in my opinion
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.