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Is believing/faith a work ?

DancesWithGnostics

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Yes, according to Paul.
You posted the verse .
Well, Thanks, Hopeful.

Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This writer of Hebrews is a long way deeper into things than the crowd around Jesus in John 6.
 

Hopeful

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Well, Thanks, Hopeful.

Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This writer of Hebrews is a long way deeper into things than the crowd around Jesus in John 6.
Doesn't that concur with my previous answer to your previous question?
Men can fall away.

Or are you saying that they were never really in Christ to begin with, and the "falling away" is just a final manifestation of their false conversion?
 

DancesWithGnostics

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Hopeful said:

"Men can fall away.

Or are you saying that they were never really in Christ to begin with, and the "falling away" is just a final manifestation of their false conversion?"

No no I never go to that "Never saved to begin with" jazz...

that's against my religion
 

Hopeful

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Hopeful said:
"Men can fall away.
Or are you saying that they were never really in Christ to begin with, and the "falling away" is just a final manifestation of their false conversion?"

No no I never go to that "Never saved to begin with" jazz...
that's against my religion
Then you are convinced that men can fall away.
Had we not been given so many warnings and admonitions about falling, I might disagree with you.
But we have plenty, so I do agree with you.
 

DancesWithGnostics

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I am convinced men can fall away - yes. It is not because I am Arminian - for there are many Arminians who think we can't fall away.

One must be careful with the "never were saved to begin with" thing - there is a context John makes:
1Jo 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Whoever these many antichrists that John speaks of really are - it should not give a carte blanch to an individual who backslides totally as never having been saved to begin with
 

DancesWithGnostics

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This is one of those warnings or admonitions regarding this, Hopeful:

Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It seems a very harsh admonition.
It seems to me it is TOO HARSH - but it is not up to me
I know there is an explanation - I just can't put it in words...
 
Last edited:

Hopeful

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I am convinced men can fall away - yes. It is not because I am Arminian - for there are many Arminians who think we can't fall away.

One must be careful with the "never were saved to begin with" thing - there is a context John makes:
1Jo 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
1Jo 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Whoever these many antichrists that John speaks of really are - it should not give a carte blanch to an individual who backslides totally as never having been saved to begin with
We are derailing the thread,... but as I read 1 John 3:9, I can see that those really born of God as are as likely to commit sin, fall away, as an apple tree is to bring forth onions.
Men can reach a tipping point, where they manifest from whom they are spawned.
Men can seem faithful for years, but one sin will show whom they really serve.
That will seem like falling away.
 

Hopeful

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This is one of those warnings or admonitions regarding this, Hopeful:

Heb 6:4
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It seems a very harsh admonition.
It seems to me it is TOO HARSH - but it is not up to me
I know there is an explanation - I just can't put it in words...
The plain words are the message.
 

brightfame52

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So if one says God saved me because of my believing/ faith

Then congratulations you are boasting about God saved you by your works !
 

Fastfredy0

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So if one says God saved me because of my believing/ faith

Then congratulations you are boasting about God saved you by your works !
I believe God saved me because of my believing/faith.
But I have no reason to boast because I believe the principal cause of my faith is God, not myself.
It is MY FAITH that saves me, not God's faith. My faith is the instrumental cause, God controls the instrument.

Instrumental causality in the wide acceptation of the term signifies any type of causal subordination. More properly it applies to a special type of efficient cause that is itself moved and elevated by the power of a principal efficient cause to produce an effect proportionate to the nature and power of the principal cause.

I hammer a nail into wood. The instrumental cause is the hammer. The principal cause is me. The hammer has no foundation for bragging for even its existence is caused by me.

Aside: Find me any verse that says the cause of my salvation is NOT my faith. The only controversy is: what is the cause of my faith.
 

Hopeful

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So if one says God saved me because of my believing/ faith

Then congratulations you are boasting about God saved you by your works !
We can't be saved without believing or having faith...can we?
We play a part in our own salvation.
We must initially accept or reject the preached words of salvation.
WE must !
Why you even call that a "works for salvation" doctrine alludes me.
How else can we accept something without doing something?

The "works" Paul preached against "for salvation" were the works of the Law...ie, circumcision, dietary requirements, clothing requirements, feast keeping, temple worship, tithing, etc.
He did NOT preach against accepting the word as true, believing, repentance from sin, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, prayer, fasting, and enduring faithfully till the end.

There is no boasting in obedience to God.
 

Hopeful

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I believe God saved me because of my believing/faith.
But I have no reason to boast because I believe the principal cause of my faith is God, not myself.
It is MY FAITH that saves me, not God's faith. My faith is the instrumental cause, God controls the instrument.

Instrumental causality in the wide acceptation of the term signifies any type of causal subordination. More properly it applies to a special type of efficient cause that is itself moved and elevated by the power of a principal efficient cause to produce an effect proportionate to the nature and power of the principal cause.

I hammer a nail into wood. The instrumental cause is the hammer. The principal cause is me. The hammer has no foundation for bragging for even its existence is caused by me.

Aside: Find me any verse that says the cause of my salvation is NOT my faith. The only controversy is: what is the cause of my faith.
Well said.
 

Edward

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So if one says God saved me because of my believing/ faith

Then congratulations you are boasting about God saved you by your works !

This has always been a curious type of debate about this to me. I'm not sure that I get all of the ramifications with it. After we get born again, should we not try to do good works?

They way I've heard some talk about it they make it seem like they just don't want to do any works at all and just believe intellectually that God exists...So, do you know?

We're saved by grace through faith. In my mind, that tells me, yes do good works which glorify God or end up like the unprofitable servant that buried his one talent.
 

D-D-W

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IMO the whole issue is proper understanding of what Paul meant by "works."

Was it any human effort? Or was it obedience to specific requirements of the Law of Moses?
I posit it was the latter.
 

brightfame52

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We can't be saved without believing or having faith...can we?
We play a part in our own salvation.
We must initially accept or reject the preached words of salvation.
WE must !
Why you even call that a "works for salvation" doctrine alludes me.
How else can we accept something without doing something?

The "works" Paul preached against "for salvation" were the works of the Law...ie, circumcision, dietary requirements, clothing requirements, feast keeping, temple worship, tithing, etc.
He did NOT preach against accepting the word as true, believing, repentance from sin, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, prayer, fasting, and enduring faithfully till the end.

There is no boasting in obedience to God.
This is works salvation. Salvation conditioned on the sinner.
 

brightfame52

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This has always been a curious type of debate about this to me. I'm not sure that I get all of the ramifications with it. After we get born again, should we not try to do good works?

They way I've heard some talk about it they make it seem like they just don't want to do any works at all and just believe intellectually that God exists...So, do you know?

We're saved by grace through faith. In my mind, that tells me, yes do good works which glorify God or end up like the unprofitable servant that buried his one talent.
If you are speaking about good works post salvation, thats scriptural as long as you keep in mind that thats works after one has been already saved. This is about works in order to get saved, if one believes they get saved because they believed, thats works.
 
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