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Is believing/faith a work ?

rogerg said:
The point is that until someone is saved, they CANNOT believe


Saul/Paul was saved with the same salvation that everyone else is. God chose to use him, but don't forget he
described himself as the chief of sinners.

[1Ti 1:15 KJV]
15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Click to expand...
rogerg said:
The point is that until someone is saved, they CANNOT believe


Saul/Paul was saved with the same salvation that everyone else is. God chose to use him, but don't forget he
described himself as the chief of sinners.

[1Ti 1:15 KJV]
15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Click to expand...
Well the criminal on the cross reached out with faith to Jesus who then forgave His sins. So I think one can believe then by that faith receive Christ.

Jesus saw their "faith" first then stated your sins are forgiven and its salvation through the forgiveness of sins.
When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”
 
Randy said:
Well the criminal on the cross reached out with faith to Jesus who then forgave His sins. So I think one can believe then by that faith receive Christ.
Click to expand...
His faith was given to him as a gift - what you are quoting was as a result of him receiving that gift.
How his faith was received is not addressed there, but in the last verse I posted it is:
the Bible cannot contradict itself.
 
randy

to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
Click to expand...

Notice first comes the opening of the eyes randy, thats this is metaphorical and it means the eyes of their mind, a spiritual work of regeneration, they were turned from darkness, they were passive, someone else did the turning, then they were delivered from the power of satan, again passive, then turned to God, and then they were given Faith to receive forgiveness of sins, which Christ provided them in His Blood Matt 26:28 and Faith is the result of the Sanctification of the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth[Faith]:
 
roger

Everyone born comes into this world lost because of Satan: we are all born as unbelievers.
Click to expand...

Yes 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

And the word hid is in the perfect tense, as long as we are in a lost unregenerate state, the gospel is hidden ! Gospel knowledge will be concealed-veiled, withheld !
 
rogerg said:
His faith was given to him as a gift - what you are quoting was as a result of him receiving that gift.
How his faith was received is not addressed there, but in the last verse I posted it is:
the Bible cannot contradict itself.
Click to expand...
The Spirit of God was with the Apostles before He was IN them. They believed in Jesus. I agree that no one comes to the Son unless enabled by the Father. But see that enabling faith comes first. Then receiving Christ by that faith 2nd. (salvation)(Christ in us).
I also disagree that people are pre chosen before they do good or bad to be saved. Though I do see exceptions to that for Gods purposes. Paul stated he was set aside at birth. I think God seeks among all those who will come to worship Him in Spirit and truth. He sees's the inner most thoughts and hearts of all. God's desire is that none are lost. Just as Jesus's desire to lead all of Israel. But as Jesus stated they wouldn't let Him and knew their enemies would leave them desolate.
 
rogerg said:
If any of what you said is true, then there is no such thing as a Savior, and we are under law not grace.
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Since I was purchased by the blood of Jesus for God then that is not of me, (grace)
I don'I agree with your reasoning or premise.
 
Randy said:
Since I was purchased by the blood of Jesus for God then that is not of me, (grace)
I don'I agree with your reasoning or premise.
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No, according to your reasoning, you purchased the blood of Christ, it didn't purchase you
 
rogerg said:
No, according to your reasoning, you purchased the blood of Christ, it didn't purchase you
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That wasn't my reasoning.
If any of what I said was true well lets see

If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.


Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

Faith first
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
 
Randy said:
That wasn't my reasoning.
If any of what I said was true well lets see

If you love me, keep my commands. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.


Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

Faith first
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
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Apparently, you did not understand all of the other verses I posted to you regarding spiritual blindness. What Jeus was
telling them was not the "how", only the "what". You incorrectly perceive "what" as "how".
And as for your reference to the "those who ask him", it was of those who are of the elect, not everyone.
A son is one who is spiritually a son of God which means they are of the elect/born again, not everyone born physically is.

[Luk 11:11 KJV]
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if [he ask] a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
 
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rogerg said:
Apparently, you did not understand all of the other verses I posted to you regarding spiritual blindness. What Jeus was
telling them was not the "how", only the "what". You incorrectly perceive "what" as "how".
And as for your reference to the "those who ask him", it was of those who are of the elect, not everyone.
A son is one who is spiritually a son of God, not everyone born physically is.

[Luk 11:11 KJV]
11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if [he ask] a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?
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What I gave you was from the Lord. Obedience prompted by love for Him then He will ask the Father to give us another advocate the Spirit of truth or God or Christ in us. He also stated to the Apostles who did know and believe in Him that they knew that Spirit for that Spirit was with them and He spoke of the day that Spirit would be in them. As He taught them on that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. In other words on that day they would have a common frame of reference for that understanding.

Further more the Lord didn't teach pre chosen by God to be saved. He stated, " It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."
 
As Jesus taught. Love Him as shown by the fruit of obedience to His commands. THEN the gift of God given.

We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.
 
Randy said:
Further more the Lord didn't teach pre chosen by God to be saved. He stated, " It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."
Click to expand...
You need to read the verse prior to that one. Only those drawn by the Father come to Christ; they alone hear and learn of the Father. No one else can.

[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Again, you don't seem able to grasp the verses I'm posting - you seem blind to them.
Therefore, I have doubts there is any benefit in continuing this dialogue you given the way you currently perceive things.
 
rogerg said:
You need to read the verse prior to that one. Only those drawn by the Father come to Christ; they alone hear and learn of the Father. No one else can.

[Jhn 6:44-45 KJV]
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Again, you don't seem able to grasp the verses I'm posting - you seem blind to them.
Therefore, I have doubts there is any benefit in continuing this dialogue you given the way you currently perceive things.
Click to expand...
You don't seem to grasp the statements of Jesus.

I believe no one comes to the Son apart from listening and learning from the Father. Jesus told His disciples they knew that Spirit for it was with them. Then spoke of the day that Spirit would be in them. They believed in the Lord before that day.
 
randy

The Spirit of God was with the Apostles before He was IN them.
Click to expand...

I dont think thats accurate. The Apostles save judas are the ones that received Christ and believed on His Name during His Ministry, and such were said to be born of God Jn 1:11-13

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

They believed in Jesus.
Click to expand...

Which is proof the Spirit was in them, they were born of God

I also disagree that people are pre chosen before they do good or bad to be saved.
Click to expand...

Then you have a problem with Gods purpose of election Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Paul stated he was set aside at birth.
Click to expand...

Yes that proves unconditional election, God had chosen him before he was born and before he was a believer, when he persecuted the church and hated Christians.
 
brightfame52 said:
randy



I dont think thats accurate. The Apostles save judas are the ones that received Christ and believed on His Name during His Ministry, and such were said to be born of God Jn 1:11-13

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



Which is proof the Spirit was in them, they were born of God



Then you have a problem with Gods purpose of election Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)



Yes that proves unconditional election, God had chosen him before he was born and before he was a believer, when he persecuted the church and hated Christians.
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I think it is accurate you can receive understanding and learning as in faith from God before your born again. God is able to comnicate at will.

But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.
 
brightfame52 said:
Obviously you didnt carefully read what was stated. You want to take it sentence by sentence to get the proper sense of what has been said ?
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Yes.
I would be very interested to see a post by someone on this forum who states that salvation is achieved by works.
Even Catholics don't believe that.
 
rogerg said:
Hi wondering,
It is my understanding that salvation by any means other than completely as a gift of God by His grace
through Jesus Christ, makes that means a work; that is, it is either fully a gift or it is fully a work with no in between.
It seems I recall people posting they were saved for various reasons including by their faith, or that they first had to first stop sinning in order to become saved. Both of those, along with anything else (I believe), would fall under works.
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Roger,
The bible clearly states that we are saved by our faith.
And that this is a gift from God...faith is a gift from God. We just take advantage of it.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

We are saved by God's grace.
Through faith.
It is the gift of God.

What is the gift of God?
I don't know Greek and don't really care to discuss it although I would...
but if you ask any theologian, you'll see that it's generally agreed that what is the gift of God
is the entire verse: FAITH and SALVATION.

God, in His mercy, has made a way for us to be saved from the fall of Adam and Eve...
that way is because He is merciful and loving toward us, He has gifted to those that wish it,
His salvation through our faith.

Even in the OT persons were saved by faith.
Chapter 11 of Hebrews.
It mentions Able, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc.

Hebrews 11:6
Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Works without faith have never saved a person and never will for the very verse above.
We cannot please God without faith.

Your going to fall back on your reformed idea that faith is a work.
Faith cannot be a work because Paul explains that the two are antithetical to each other.

Romans 11:6
6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

The Law is works...Not faith
Romans 4:5
But to the one who does NOT WORK, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, HIS FAITH is reckoned as righteousness.

A person is made right with God (righteousness) through faith...
NOT through works.

So faith cannot be a work.
 
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