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Is believing/faith a work ?

DancesWithGnostics said:
Yes, There is a doctrine out there that forbids any kinds of "acts" that can be done by a person - the doctrine forbids any type of synergy between God and Man - reducing man to an automaton, a robot, a puppet.
Click to expand...

No, a man is a robot or a puppet until becoming saved, not after. Salvation gives spiritual eyes that see, ears that hear, and a mind that can perceive, which the unsaved do not/cannot possess of themselves. After becoming saved, man is directed to perform good works, but not to become saved.

[Jhn 6:65-66 KJV]
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

[Jhn 12:39-40 KJV]
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
 
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rogerg said:
Anything someone may try to do to become saved is a work. As far as salvation is
concerned, that which is not of a gift, is a work. No natural man will of themselves, nor can of themselves, want the salvation of Christ, until they have been given it. This is because natural man (as were we all), are born worshipping and following the gospel of Satan.

[Psa 58:3 KJV]
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

The "wicked" are the unsaved.
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A sinner is a wicked person.


Sinner — Strong’s #268


  1. devoted to sin, a sinner
    1. not free from sin
    2. pre-eminently sinful, especially wicked
      1. all wicked men
      2. specifically of men stained with certain definite vices or crimes
        1. tax collectors, heathen
 
wondering said:
Making statements affirming that faith is a work,
Is a calvinist teaching.

When someone replies that faith is not a work,
It is an arminian teaching.

So, calvinism vs arminianism IS being discussed.

Aside from the fact that calvinism and arminianism are not opposites.
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But, as you can see throughout every thread where these discussions come up there are those that refute both teachings as we discuss the scriptures. Everyone has a religion, everyone has points of views in what they believe is truth, but yet it is up to all of us to search the scriptures for ourself praying and asking the Holy Spirit to teach us all truths. If we kicked out everyone that does not agree with us then there would be no forums as none of us would be here.

It's only when members violate the Community message, Statement of Faith and the Terms of Service do we take actions on members in violations.
 
I have deleted many post as no one is heeding my warning about staying on topic. If I have to delete one more post this thread will be closed.
 
DancesWithGnostics said:
Jhn 6:28
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

Jhn 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

If that doesn't make it obvious that faith/believing is a work - I don't know what will.
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That doesn't follow logically. "this is the work of God..." It doesn't say "this is the work of believers", so it is obvious that faith/believing is a work of God.
 
for_his_glory said:
But, as you can see throughout every thread where these discussions come up there are those that refute both teachings as we discuss the scriptures. Everyone has a religion, everyone has points of views in what they believe is truth, but yet it is up to all of us to search the scriptures for ourself praying and asking the Holy Spirit to teach us all truths. If we kicked out everyone that does not agree with us then there would be no forums as none of us would be here.

It's only when members violate the Community message, Statement of Faith and the Terms of Service do we take actions on members in violations.
Click to expand...
Understood.
 
jaybo said:
It doesn't say "this is the work of believers", so it is obvious that faith/believing is a work of God.
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The context was a question to Jesus - "What do WE have to do that WE might do the works of God?'
and His answer - "that YE believe in Him who He has sent"
It is all about PEOPLE DOING THINGS
Believing - that YE believe

The work of God that God did was sending Jesus
People DO things to accept it - believe it - receive it
Pistueo is the verb for believe - pistis is faith - this is what WE DO
 
DancesWithGnostics said:
The context was a question to Jesus - "What do WE have to do that WE might do the works of God?'
and His answer - "that YE believe in Him who He has sent"
It is all about PEOPLE DOING THINGS
Believing - that YE believe

The work of God that God did was sending Jesus
People DO things to accept it - believe it - receive it
Pistueo is the verb for believe - pistis is faith - this is what WE DO
Click to expand...
So "believing" is "doing"? I'll tell my wife that when she asks me to do the dishes!

"Believing" is not at all the same as "doing".

"Belief": acceptance of something as true
"Doing": exerting effort; performing an activity
 
DancesWithGnostics said:
The context was a question to Jesus - "What do WE have to do that WE might do the works of God?'
and His answer - "that YE believe in Him who He has sent"
Click to expand...
[1Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

[1Pe 1:21 KJV] 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

[Jhn 12:39 KJV] 39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
[Jhn 12:40 KJV] 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
 
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In relation to Sola Fide (justification by faith alone), the place of works is found in Ephesians chapter 2. Justification is by grace through faith, not from yourself and not by works. It is by faith alone since all human efforts are excluded here, Ephesians 2:8, 9. Ephesians goes on to say that every person who has faith is to produce good works according to God's plan Ephesians 2:10. We know also that faith without works is dead faith

These works, however, are not a cause for forgiveness, but a result of forgiveness. Faith alone justifies, but faith is never alone as it is followed by good works. The works of love are the goal of the saving faith, 1 Timothy 1:5.

James 1:16-18 clearly teaches that the recipients of the letter have been justified by God through the saving gospel which is Christ Jesus who is our faith. James also taught in James 2:14-26 that faith is dead within us if not followed by good works as it takes faith and good works to justify us. It begins with faith alone when we first accept Jesus as Lord and Savior entering into a better covenant by God's grace and then we become his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
 
DancesWithGnostics said:
The context was a question to Jesus - "What do WE have to do that WE might do the works of God?'
and His answer - "that YE believe in Him who He has sent"
It is all about PEOPLE DOING THINGS
Believing - that YE believe
Click to expand...

Don't think so. I believe you read more into the verse than it can support.
In effect, Jesus corrected their assumption/question and informed that the work of believing is actually by God. True belief is given only from/as the fruit of the Spirit, not by man:

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
 
DancesWithGnostics said:
"that YE believe in Him who He has sent"
Click to expand...

Yeah, God gives to us our belief - they who believe are the recipients of God's work -
He doesn't give it to everyone

[Jhn 12:37, 39 KJV] 37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: ...
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
 
rogerg said:
Anything someone may try to do to become saved is a work.
Click to expand...
But not a work of the Law that Paul ostracized.
That is a big difference.
rogerg said:
As far as salvation is concerned, that which is not of a gift, is a work.
Click to expand...
As far as anything is concerned.
rogerg said:
No natural man will of themselves, nor can of themselves, want the salvation of Christ, until they have been given it. This is because natural man (as were we all), are born worshipping and following the gospel of Satan.
Click to expand...
Our POVs differ here, as I was a "natural" man when I grew sick of what I was and reached out for something, anything, better.
rogerg said:
[Psa 58:3 KJV]
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
The "wicked" are the unsaved.
Click to expand...
I agree, but I am not convinced they need to remain wicked all their lives.
Before men obey the truth, all men are wicked.
Obedience (to God) manifests the truth.
Disobedience (to God) manifests still being unconverted.
Some choose to walk on a narrower path than they once walked.
 
Since some of you are not heeding my warning about going off topic this thread will now be locked as I do not have the time to delete every off topic post.
 
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