Is believing/faith a work ?

[rogerg]

But you said we cannot be pleasing to God.

Only pleasing through Christ, not of ourselves because we were sinners. Christ imputes His righteousness
to those He saves. When God sees someone that has been saved, it is as though He is seeing Christ, not us.

Do you realize that if you're right and ALL THOSE OTHER VERSES exist...
it means the bible is contradicting itself.

Wrong - that is the gospel

 

[Randy]

But are you saying someone can believe in Christ and not be born again?
What does BELIEVE mean to you?

Believe in Him via the Spirit. Believe He is who He is taught to be in the NT. FIRST- Those who listen and learn from the Father THEN -come to Jesus. As Jesus told His disciples they knew that Spirit because it was with them and informed them it would be in them.

As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized?”Acts 8:37 Some manuscripts include here Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” The eunuch answered, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

God chooses us to know His will and to see the righteous one and to hear words from His mouth.
or as Jesus stated ALL that the Father gives Him will come to Him. So its faith via the Spirit then receiving Christ by that faith. No one comes to Him unless enabled by the Father. So no one comes to Christ except by the Father and no one comes to the Father except by the Son. I just disagree with that being predetermined before we do or know Good and bad. I think God seeks. But I believe there is or can be a period of time when one believes but has not yet received the gift of God. (Christ in us)

 

[brightfame52]

journeyman

This passage is referring to the light of Christ being shown through the conduct of believers toward unbelievers so that they will be saved,

I dont see how you came up with that from 2 Cor 4:4-4

 

[brightfame52]

wondering

The fruit in Galatians is FAITHFULNESS.

Its also Faith, its the same greek word if you talking about Gal 5:22

 

[journeymanisnothing]

believe on me through their word; Jn.17:20

How can people not understand what he means? I firmly believe theologians somewhere along the line, took the writings of Paul and misinterpreted them so badly the true meaning of them is unrecognizable.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

journeyman
I dont see how you came up with that from 2 Cor 4:4-4

That's because you don't see how the light of Christ shined through them being under intense persecution to the point of death...as Jesus was...and still is in us...and was to the prophets. Read the chapter,

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Jn.13:35

Years ago, a sister in Christ loved me that way. Didn't want anything from me, except to know our King through her. So please dear one, don't corrupt the truth.

 

[Hopeful]

Only pleasing through Christ, not of ourselves because we were sinners. Christ imputes His righteousness
to those He saves. When God sees someone that has been saved, it is as though He is seeing Christ, not us.


Wrong - that is the gospel

I am grateful you wrote "WERE sinners".

 

[brightfame52]

wondering

So we have a serious problem here if 2 Co 4:4 is right and Ro 1:19 is right.
Co says we cannot see the light of God, be it in the gospel or anywhere.
Ro says God has ALWAYS revealed Himself through His creation.
Which is right? Which is wrong?

Ro 1:19 isnt about the Gospel at all, Rom 1:16-17 are, Rom 1:19 is talking about natural creation and how man has abused that revelation of the Creator, but the Gospel is a Spiritual message revealed to Faith Vs 17 which Faith is the fruit of the Spirit, so the Gospel revelation of the righteousness of God is made known to the regenerate who have faith.

So there isnt any problem save in your own mind friend

 

[rogerg]

I am grateful you wrote "WERE sinners".

WERE sinners because of Christ, not because of ourselves

 

[rogerg]

But you said we cannot be pleasing to God.
I believed that you meant even we Christians because God is pleased only with Jesus.
You even posted Matthew 3:17 and said there was only one person God was pleased with.

Notice in 2:5, the Son is the ONLY mediator for men with the Father.
Notice in 1 Jo 2:1, the Son alone advocates on the behalf of men with the Father.


[1Ti 2:5 KJV]
5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

[1Jo 2:1 KJV]
1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

 

[rogerg]

1 Corinthians 1:2l
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
To save those who believe.
Those who believe will be saved.
First comes belief and THEN salvation.

Romans 10:13
“everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Calls on the name of the Lord WILL BE saved.
Calling on the name causes salvation.
First comes the calling and THEN salvation.

Regarding 1 Corinthians 1:21, salvation occurs in two separate phases: 1) the saving of the soul while someone is alive
and, 2) receipt of salvation in its complete form at the end of time. 1 Corinthians is speaking of the latter not the former.

Regarding Rom 10:13, you didn't include a critical verse prior to it (as they're all part of the "For" chain). In order for someone to call upon the name of the Lord, they must first believe from the heart. To believe from the heart, one must first have been given a new heart (by God) which is upon salvation/becoming born again. So, the "whosever" of Rom 10:13 represents only the saved not everyone. Again, with the "saved" being full salvation at the end of time.

[Eze 36:26 KJV]
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

[Rom 10:10 KJV]
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

[Rom 10:13 KJV]
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

Regarding 1 Corinthians 1:21, salvation occurs in two separate phases: 1) the saving of the soul while someone is alive
and, 2) receipt of salvation in its complete form at the end of time. 1 Corinthians is speaking of the latter not the former.

I believe in the future aspect of salvation at the second coming of Christ and the glorified state, yet I would not have associated 1 Cor 1:21 with that aspect, what makes you understand it that way ?

 

[rogerg]

I should have explained earlier that I'm going back through your recent posts to me to find any points
that I missed and as time permits to do so now so there may be others. This applies to my last several post to you

He is NOT saying that God gave some faith and not to others.
He's saying that those that have received faith, have done so through the righteousness of God.
Question is: HOW do we receive faith?

Your statement seems to contradict itself.
If, as you say, certain people receive faith through the righteousness of God and the remaining don't,
then, on that basis, it must be that faith is not given to everyone, right? In any event, true faith is only given to certain people - the elect. How do we receive faith? Faith is received solely as a gift - one type of faith is imputed, the other imparted, both fully and freely as gifts of God because He is a merciful, gracious and generous God, and for no other reason. That which is imputed is the faith of Christ; that which is imparted is faith in Christ (as a fruit of the Holy Spirit). These in total comprise the faith of the recipient. Other than them being as a gift would require work on the part of the recipient.

 

[rogerg]

I believe in the future aspect of salvation at the second coming of Christ and the glorified state, yet I would not have associated 1 Cor 1:21 with that aspect, what makes you understand it that way ?

Well, brightfame52, I think that whenever salvation that is mentioned in the Bible -- it occurring AFTER the receiving of faith (that is, faith first, salvation second) as it is in 1 Cor 1:21 -- then it must pertain to final salvation at the end of time. This is because I believe the receiving of faith happens from the saving of the soul, faith doesn't precede spiritual salvation. It is my understanding that faith is by and from spiritual salvation. Otherwise, that would mean we would have to produce our own faith should it come first, rather than of it being gift from God. I could be wrong, do you see it otherwise?

 

[rogerg]

I believe in the future aspect of salvation at the second coming of Christ and the glorified state, yet I would not have associated 1 Cor 1:21 with that aspect, what makes you understand it that way ?

There are much better verses than this one but it's the first one that comes to mind to demonstrate the Bible use of
the word "saved" at the end of time. It is the completion of the spiritual salvation which occurred during their lifetime.
Spiritual salvation of the soul must happen first to someone in order to be saved in the day of the Lord.
I'll try to recall the other verse that I think demonstrates it much better than the below and will post if I do.

[1Co 5:5 KJV] 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[Hopeful]

WERE sinners because of Christ, not because of ourselves

We can't do anything without Him.
But with Him, we can walk without sinning.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

Well, brightfame52, I think that whenever salvation that is mentioned in the Bible -- it occurring AFTER the receiving of faith (that is, faith first, salvation second) as it is in 1 Cor 1:21 -- then it must pertain to final salvation at the end of time.

I gotcha, and I believe you do good to keep faith in the perspective of always being the fruit of regeneration, I agree with that, simply because it is. But sometimes believing /faith may appear to come before salvation or being saved because, the believing or Faith is an evidence of having been in a saved state. The key is the verb be.

Here is a study I was introduced to many years ago, and it helped me a lot, please check it out, its not a very long read at all and its very interesting.

Must One Believe to "Be Saved?"

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

www.oldschoolbaptist.org

This is because I believe the receiving of faith happens from the saving of the soul, faith doesn't precede spiritual salvation

Agreed

It is my understanding that faith is by and from spiritual salvation. Otherwise, that would mean we would have to produce our own faith should it come first, rather than of it being gift from God. I could be wrong, do you see it otherwise?

Agreed, I believe your right !

 

[brightfame52]

roger

There are much better verses than this one but it's the first one that comes to mind to demonstrate the Bible use of
the word "saved" at the end of time.

I actually believe that verse refers to the conversion experience in time, I could be wrong, but I know it doesnt condition salvation on ones believing, thats works !

. It is the completion of the spiritual salvation which occurred during their lifetime.

I believe its more feasible its the beginning of the conversion experience in time, the elect as time goes on will be being saved from former errors and misconceptions they may have held in their unconverted days. I know I have grown in grace and knowledge since my initial conversion to the truth.

Spiritual salvation of the soul must happen first to someone in order to be saved in the day of the Lord.

I feel you on that !

I'll try to recall the other verse that I think demonstrates it much better than the below and will post if I do.

[1Co 5:5 KJV] 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Good verse for that ! Thanks

 

[rogerg]

We can't do anything without Him.
But with Him, we can walk without sinning.

Guess it depends on how you define sinning?

 

[rogerg]

Here is a study I was introduced to many years ago, and it helped me a lot, please check it out, its not a very long read at all and its very interesting.

Must One Believe to "Be Saved?"

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

www.oldschoolbaptist.org

brightframe52, I read it and totally agree. It explains what I was thinking much more clearly
than I did, plus, it increased my perception and understanding. thanks much