Is believing/faith a work ?

[rogerg]

If you are intent in defending false doctrine, I can't change your mind.

Yeah, at this point, I think we're done with this discussion and it's not false doctrine. It is your
interpretation that is based upon incorrect understanding

 

[Hopeful]

Until becoming saved no one has "heard" the word with spiritual ears - maybe they have with physical ears but those aren't good enough for salvation. Spiritual ears that hear are solely from becoming born-again by the Holy Spirit, but which occurs after, and as a result of salvation, not before.
But I understand the crux of your question. I think the answer to it is that no one is saved by anything they may do to include the hearing of the gospel. Unless someone is first born-again, even though they may hear the gospel a million times it will have no effect upon them because they are spiritually deaf to it - they will be oblivious to it. People become saved for one reason and one reason only: that God had chosen to save them before the foundation of the world. For those whom He as so chosen, He assumes the responsibility, that at a time of His choosing, by one way or another, He guarantees they will be exposed to it, and as a result of that, they come to a true faith in Christ (that faith also being a gift) - but that faith is not what saves - it is all from His work alone, none the work of the recipient - it is fully and completely a gift - that's what makes it of mercy and grace.

[Mar 4:11-12 KJV]
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

It is written...

1. Psalm 9:10
   And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, Lord, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.
2. Psalm 10:4
   The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

We have our part in our salvation.

 

[Hopeful]

Death is from sin - there can't be one without the other, and it is not my doctrine it is the Bible's. Anyway, the doctrine condemns everyone who is born.
If it is someone's choice that decides who is to be saved, then no one would be.

If you have some thing to accuse my long dead brother and sister of, say on.
Death came because Eve and Adam sinned.
Not because babies sinned.

[1Co 15:56 KJV] 56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.

As babies are not under a law of any sort, your point is ludicrous.

 

[Hopeful]

Yeah, at this point, I think we're done with this discussion and it's not false doctrine. It is your
interpretation that is based upon incorrect understanding

It is false doctrine.
Do you know how I can tell?
Because it accommodates sin.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

We are all born with a love of the law of sin and death within our hearts. Its presence is not a function of human age, it
is a function of spirit and of Adam's sin:

All men are born sinners with the same nature as the children of disobedience Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

This disobedient disposition I believe is resultive of the fall, and it cant change ever, the only hope is to have a new nature imparted at new birth, then there is a battle for supremacy Gal 5:17
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
This nature of disobedience is imparted to all the sons of Adam at I believe conception. Now it may not be manifested at physical birth, but give it time, it will be manifested, you who have children know this. Did you have to teach your child to lie ? No it came naturally Ps 58:3
3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

When was the first time you had to spank the little child, or say NO dont do that , thats bad

 

[brightfame52]

Could you explain how people who have never heard of Jesus and His sacrifice on the cross to pay for the sins of the world, are saved?

No I will not explain it now.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

Hi brightfame52,
Sorry, I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at here?

I attempted to explain it with what followed, maybe I need to say it differently

I just can't believe you are saying that
man's salvation is dependent in any part upon what they may do - I know you better than that -- I must be misunderstanding your point.

Yes you are misunderstanding me, you know I dont believe any part of Salvation is conditioned on man, I dont even see how you thought I meant or stated that rog ! What part of the post made you wonder about that, just curious !

You are definitely correct in that those who are saved are under the law of Christ, but it is the law itself that places someone under itself, it is not by a person's actions. If it were, I would think that would make it from work not grace.

You have my head spinning with this comment.

I think the curse of the law, is that the curse IS the law.

I dont follow you on that, Ypu may need to clarify more. I believe the Law is essentially Holy and Good Rom 7:12

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. it emanates out of the Holy Good God !

Not sure re Lk16 - I'll have to reread

You kidding right ? Its so happen to mentions a paradise side to hell Lk 16:19-26

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

[Mat 27:53-54 KJV]
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

okay, and you get what out of this ? What am I missing here ?

 

[rogerg]

Yes you are misunderstanding me, you know I dont believe any part of Salvation is conditioned on man, I dont even see how you thought I meant or stated that rog ! What part of the post made you wonder about that, just curious !

Thanks, brightfame52, sorry - my misunderstanding - no offense intended!
In rereading your reply, I think my impression was that you inadvertently, without intending to, seemed to say that it is up to the individual to place themselves under the law of Christ, rather than of God doing so, which I know to be contrary to your true belief - and just wanted to confirm that my understanding is correct.
My reply, without thinking, came across more abruptly than I had intended it to.
Sorry about that.

You have my head spinning with this comment.

I meant only what I said above, and as Paul had said, that it was the law of the Spirit of life in Christ itself
that took him (Paul and us) from under the law of sin and death, and places under the law of Christ - the individual
contributes nothing to it.

I dont follow you on that, Ypu may need to clarify more. I believe the Law is essentially Holy and Good Rom 7:12

Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. it emanates out of the Holy Good God !

Laws of The Law are good - they inform us of appropriate standards of behavior, however, the curse for the unsaved is to be under the authority of The Law at all.
Through Christ, those saved have been taken out from under its authority for salvation. For those no longer under it, there can be no judgement made against them because judgement comes from transgression of The Law - so, no Law, no judgement

[Rom 6:14-15 KJV]
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

You kidding right ? Its so happen to mentions a paradise side to hell Lk 16:19-26

I didn't mean to imply that it doesn't pertain, just that I haven't looked at all pertinent verses for that topic for a while and didn't want to make my reply appear focused only upon those. That's why I said in both OT and NT.
The reason I used the verses I did was that they were the first and most direct ones to come to mind - at least that's what I thought.

okay, and you get what out of this ? What am I missing here ?

The topic at hand as I understood it was the release of the saved from hell (those of the elect who were held there from the beginning of time) at the completion of the offering of Christ. It seemed to me that those verses demonstrate to us in almost a visual sense, the realization of, and satisfying of at least one of the spiritual promises made by God regarding what Christ's offering would bring forth. How do you understand those verses?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Our Savior said, "ye would not." Calvamism says, "ye could not."

 

[rogerg]

It is written...

1. Psalm 9:10
   And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, Lord, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.
2. Psalm 10:4
   The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

We have our part in our salvation.

[Rom 3:11 KJV] 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

There are NONE who seek after God of themselves. Even in Psalm 9:10 which you quoted, tells us that only
those who know the name of God and have placed their trust in Him, that is, those who have become saved, seek Him. In other words, salvation is the causation, seeking is its result. The unsaved, of themselves, will never seek the true God.
We can know this because everyone unsaved is in and remains in, the "none that seeketh after God" group.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

For anyone listening, God said,

From the time I brought your ancestors up from Egypt until today, I warned them again and again, saying, “Obey me.”
But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubbornness of their evil hearts. So I brought on them all the curses of the covenant I had commanded them to follow but that they did not keep.’ ” Jer.11:7-8

It's obvious God gave them the ability to understand, so when a passage says they didn't hear him, we know it's because they loved their sin more than God. It's that simple.

 

[rogerg]

For anyone listening, God said,

From the time I brought your ancestors up from Egypt until today, I warned them again and again, saying, “Obey me.”
But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubbornness of their evil hearts. So I brought on them all the curses of the covenant I had commanded them to follow but that they did not keep.’ ” Jer.11:7-8

It's obvious God gave them the ability to understand, so when a passage says they didn't hear him, we know it's because they loved their sin more than God. It's that simple.

[Jhn 8:43, 47 KJV]
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. ...
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

 

[Hopeful]

[Rom 3:11 KJV] 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

There are NONE who seek after God of themselves. Even in Psalm 9:10 which you quoted, tells us that only
those who know the name of God and have placed their trust in Him, that is, those who have become saved, seek Him. In other words, salvation is the causation, seeking is its result. The unsaved, of themselves, will never seek the true God.
We can know this because everyone unsaved is in and remains in, the "none that seeketh after God" group.

That's kind of an odd response to two Psalms saying some do "seek".
If a person hears of Jesus, or of His Father, and is interested in learning more, God will not hide from him.
You would be better off considering Rom 3 in the context it was originally written in, and about.
Things change from generation to generation.
Paul quoted Ps 14, and 53, to get Rom 3:11.
Both written by David, concerning fools.
That leaves all those who were not foolish, to seek God.

 

[Hopeful]

[Jhn 8:43, 47 KJV]
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. ...
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

Pray for the people who ARE of God.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

[Jhn 8:43, 47 KJV]
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. ...
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

Now look at what they said to him,

We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jn.8:33

Jews believed (and still do to this day) that because they're descended from Abraham, they are Gods' chosen people no matter what they believe and do. This they learned from their rabbis.
Our Lord was correcting them, telling them they "hear them not" because they believed otherwise. Jesus never told anyone people are incapable of repenting. He did teach love of sin keeps people from repenting. It's that easy and contradicts no scripture.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

That's kind of an odd response to two Psalms saying some do "seek".
If a person hears of Jesus, or of His Father, and is interested in learning more, God will not hide from him.
You would be better off considering Rom 3 in the context it was originally written in, and about.
Things change from generation to generation.
Paul quoted Ps 14, and 53, to get Rom 3:11.
Both written by David, concerning fools.
That leaves all those who were not foolish, to seek God.

When Paul says, There is none that does good, no not one, he doesn't mean people can't repent. He's simply comparing Jews and gentiles. He explained Jews with the law and gentiles by conscience are sinners. That's all he's saying.

 

[Hopeful]

When Paul says, There is none that does good, no not one, he doesn't mean people can't repent. He's simply comparing Jews and gentiles. He explained Jews with the law and gentiles by conscience are sinners. That's all he's saying.

I do realize that, and am glad you see it too.
Paul was just trying to make the Jews see that they needed the Redeemer as much as the Gentiles did.
And that neither of the groups was "good enough" in the condition they were then in.

 

[rogerg]

Things change from generation to generation.

[2Ti 3:16-17 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

All of the Bible was written under inspiration of God and no one else. Its teachings: eternal. It transcends all generations, nor does its truth change.

All are fools

[Rom 3:9-12 KJV]
9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

[rogerg]

Jews believed (and still do to this day) that because they're descended from Abraham, they are Gods' chosen people no matter what they believe and do. This they learned from their rabbis.
Our Lord was correcting them, telling them they "hear them not" because they believed otherwise. Jesus never told anyone people are incapable of repenting. He did teach love of sin keeps people from repenting. It's that easy and contradicts no scripture.

No.

Read the verses again. Do you not see the "cannot hear", and the "because ye are not of God" parts?
It was not within their spiritual ability to spiritually hear. One must be able to hear, to hear. The
unsaved are unable to.

[Jhn 8:43, 47 KJV]
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. ...
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

[Mat 13:14 KJV]
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I do realize that, and am glad you see it too.
Paul was just trying to make the Jews see that they needed the Redeemer as much as the Gentiles did.
And that neither of the groups was "good enough" in the condition they were then in.

Right. Everytime Paul teaches on the purpose of the law, it's for humility in oneself, not pride in oneself.

But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: Rom.10:6-8

Paul is quoting Deu.30:11-14. He's citing Moses speaking of Christ as the result of the knowledge that they need Gods' mercy. That's all he's saying.