Is believing/faith a work ?

[rogerg]

Been through this too. Jesus plainly told people to repent. There's no reason to do so, if people can't repent.
You say scripture makes sense to you. The Ninevites repented when Jonah preached. How did those pagans repent?

They believed when they saw him alive after being executed. There's no arbitrary reason here.

I don't think you quite understand that Jesus died for all who sinned against him. Even those who sinned against him by having him crucified. That's what the OT sacrifice shows...man acknowledging his sin, sin that was inflicted on the Son of God. I don't think you clearly see how Jesus gives people who have sinned against him time to repent.

No. It's if they endure chastisment. Oftentimes people don't.

Guess we'll have to disagree; I think you've totally missed it

 

[brightfame52]

roger

Regarding salvation, only the law of Christ has ever had spiritual efficacy unto salvation.

Agreed, God Looked upon The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I guess one could say the law of sin and death also has spiritual efficacy but unto death, not salvation.

Yes when sin/ death entered into the world Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

. I did NOT intend to imply that salvation was ever possible, nor could ever be possible, by an individual's keeping of the law - salvation from Adam and Eve onwards has always been, and can only be through, Jesus Christ

Thats what I thought you believed, but some will see that statement otherwise without further clarification

I believe that the keeping of the law is still relevant insofar as it provides a standard for men to follow in the conduct of their affairs with each other, but should not be understood as able to bring salvation - working the works of law for salvation brings death not salvation

Im not sure I can quite agree with this bro roger, especially when it concerns the believer. Sure the 10 commandments are a great rule of conduct, but we as believers I believe are totally under the Law of Christ Jn 13:34

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another

1 Jn 3:22-24

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

After all that, its Christ that has fulfilled even this law for us, so we walk by faith in Him. Im still growing in my understanding on this, but I believe that the ten commandments as a rule for the believer is iffy ! I just know how easy it is for us to become legalistic.

But I do understand your point !

I think the confusion I may have caused is found in when Christ became the Saviour. I believe He became Saviour from before the foundation of the world

Absolutely !

Now, even though Christ was Saviour from before the foundation of the world, His role as Saviour couldn't be (and I'm not sure of the best word to use here?) activated (?), brought to fruition(?), until His mission was completed on the cross.

I gotcha. Its no doubt that from the Eternal Perspective of Salvation, the Salvation of the Elect was a done deal.

Now that done deal was foundationed upon what Christ would come and do in time on the Cross

Thats the Legal aspect of Salvation, so its appropriate to say all the elect of God were saved at the Cross when Christ actually in time paid the blood ransom/redemption, He was indebted to do that. Heb 2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

That word behooved is the greek word opheilō and means:
to owe

1. to owe money, be in debt for
   
   1. that which is due, the debt

No He wasn't in debt to man, but to God the Father, it was His debt to pay in the Everlasting covenant of grace , wherein He became a Surety Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Isa 42:6

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Then there is the spiritual aspect of Salvation through Christ premised on the Eternal, Legal aspects, and thats when the Spirit provides Spiritual life and blessing to the redeemed ones. This for the Most Part had its largest success after the Cross, though many had it before the Cross, those who were true believers. Then finally there is the Glorified aspect of Salvation, which is yet to come at the second coming of Christ.

The law and commandment Christ made to pass away, was the law and judgment that was brought to life in the garden. I refer to it as the law of law and became the progenitor of the Jewish law of the Levitical priesthood, and also of the laws of the gentiles.

I need to think on that, sounds interesting. I believe He did away for the elect, the curse of the law Gal 3:13 and the law of sin and death Rom 8:3-4. But I like to hear more of this when you have time

The question then becomes, what happened to those who were covered by Christ as Saviour but died before the completion of His mission on Earth? I believe they waited in Hell, but that Hell was not a place of judgment or torment. Instead, for those covered by Christ, it was a place of waiting for the cross, after which, they went into the new spiritual Jerusalem, the new Holy City. The others, I believe, will remain there but not in torment, until judgment day.
Now I realize everyone has different opinions on this and mine is just one of many and am not sure I have everything perfectly correct. I don't know how you perceive it but would be interested to hear it.

Roger this isnt farfetched, I believe you derive this from Lk 16 correct ?

[2Ti 1:9 KJV] 9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

[1Pe 1:19-20 KJV]
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

[Rev 13:8 KJV]
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

These are Three of my Favorites in the scripture. ! Thanks for sharing

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Guess we'll have to disagree; I think you've totally missed it

I agree to disagree

 

[rogerg]

I agree to disagree

You're disagreeing with my disagreement? I think that will cancel each of them out

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You're disagreeing with my disagreement? I think that will cancel each of them out

I thought I disagreed with your agreement by agreeing to disagree with your agreement.

 

[rogerg]

I thought I disagreed with your agreement by agreeing to disagree with your agreement.

Ah, okay - that answers it then- I wondered if that's what it was -thanks

 

[Hopeful]

God made all law and commandment pertaining to salvation save Christ, to pass away. That being the case, no works for them are possible. Were such works attempted, they then would be in direct violation of, and in contradiction to, God and His purposes and thereby in-effect, calling God a liar. Consequently, salvation can only be received as completely a free gift from God though His mercy, grace, generosity, divine prerogative, judgment, and power. We would do well to submit ourselves to that.

[Heb 7:12 KJV]
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
[Heb 7:18-19 KJV]
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
[Heb 7:25 KJV]
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

As the only "works" ever written against in the bible were circumcision, sabbaths, new moons and dietary rules, (Col 2:16), your point in moot.
It is a strawman argument that you present.
It is also a devilish attempt to "outlaw" repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and doing any good to any other man.
"Legalism" is a doctrine from the devil.

 

[Hopeful]

Wait.... you ask me if I know what others are thinking and then go on to say

Don't you know what others are thinking?

"If someone thinks they will receive salvation another way than what has been taught, you can be sure they have offended their conscience."? You just did exactly what you accused me of doing!

Accused?
I asked a question.

The bottom line is that only God's selection of certain individuals to salvation in spite of any and all other factors and conditions, demonstrates consistency of criteria for salvation across all peoples, belief systems, inabilities, ETC. Those He chooses, regardless of the conditions they're under, because chosen by Him, they alone are saved, and by that, come to a true faith in Christ.

Pick-and-choose gods are of the world, and not of God the Almighty.
Th real God will accept anyone who will submit to Him.

 

[Hopeful]

Hi journeyman,


In the verse you quoted, it is spiritual children that are the subject, not physical children. Everyone born are sinners from the womb.


I think the same thing about you and all scripture does already make sense to me.


I beg to disagree. That they are incapable of repentance in and of themselves, is exactly what God through Paul
is teaching in Romans 3. Regarding salvation, God uses chastisement upon the elect to teach. We know this because
we are told in Heb 12:6, that God only chastises those He loves - He loves only those who have been covered by
Christ's offering because they have been covered by Christ's offering. In the spiritual sense, God does not love everyone-- God loves first, and those He loves, chastises, not the reverse. Heb 12 is addressed to the elect because they alone are the only ones who will be given a true faith, and of which faith, is Christ the author and finisher; that is, given that Christ is author and finisher of their faith, and since Christ's mission was already completed, the names of those who are to receive that faith have been sealed and cannot be added to or removed.


[Pro 3:12 KJV]
12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son [in whom] he delighteth.

[Heb 12:1-2 KJV]
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

[Heb 12:5-9 KJV]
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected [us], and we gave [them] reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

What sin did you commit in the womb?

 

[rogerg]

What sin did you commit in the womb?

The sin of having in our hearts the love of, trust in, and desire to follow satan's gospel of working for salvation : the law of sin and death - rather than of trusting in its antithesis: the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
With the condemnation being this:

[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

We are all born with a love of the law of sin and death within our hearts. Its presence is not a function of human age, it
is a function of spirit and of Adam's sin:

[Rom 5:12 KJV] 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[Rom 5:13 KJV] 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

 

[rogerg]

Th real God will accept anyone who will submit to Him.

I see it in the reverse: those who submit to Him are those whom He has first accepted,
not the reverse.

 

[rogerg]

As the only "works" ever written against in the bible were circumcision, sabbaths, new moons and dietary rules, (Col 2:16), your point in moot.
It is a strawman argument that you present.
It is also a devilish attempt to "outlaw" repentance from sin, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and doing any good to any other man.
"Legalism" is a doctrine from the devil.

No, not any particular works, working for salvation, period:

1. to work, labour, do work

[Rom 4:4 KJV] 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Nonsensical - It is not a strawman, it is the foundation of the gospel

If you depend upon yourself to anything to remit sin, you are following satan, not Christ - Christ
is the Saviour, we are not. He alone is the remedy for sin.
I've said nothing against doing good works and I challenge you to show any post where I have.
What I've said is that those who are saved are to share the gospel with others which is their duty to do, and the
most important gift that anyone can give to another - but, doing so doesn't provide salvation to anyone.
Do you understand what legalism is? My posts are the polar opposite of legalism - they declare that
we are saved solely by grace not by works of law, but there cannot be grace without the existence of election,
otherwise, should there not be such a thing as election, works would be required, at which, all would fail.

 

[JLB]

roger



Agreed, God Looked upon The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.



Yes when sin/ death entered into the world Rom 5:12
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:



Thats what I thought you believed, but some will see that statement otherwise without further clarification


Im not sure I can quite agree with this bro roger, especially when it concerns the believer. Sure the 10 commandments are a great rule of conduct, but we as believers I believe are totally under the Law of Christ Jn 13:34

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another

1 Jn 3:22-24

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

After all that, its Christ that has fulfilled even this law for us, so we walk by faith in Him. Im still growing in my understanding on this, but I believe that the ten commandments as a rule for the believer is iffy ! I just know how easy it is for us to become legalistic.

But I do understand your point !


Absolutely !



I gotcha. Its no doubt that from the Eternal Perspective of Salvation, the Salvation of the Elect was a done deal.

Now that done deal was foundationed upon what Christ would come and do in time on the Cross

Thats the Legal aspect of Salvation, so its appropriate to say all the elect of God were saved at the Cross when Christ actually in time paid the blood ransom/redemption, He was indebted to do that. Heb 2:17

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

That word behooved is the greek word opheilō and means:
to owe

1. to owe money, be in debt for
   
   1. that which is due, the debt

No He wasn't in debt to man, but to God the Father, it was His debt to pay in the Everlasting covenant of grace , wherein He became a Surety Heb 7:22

22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Isa 42:6

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Then there is the spiritual aspect of Salvation through Christ premised on the Eternal, Legal aspects, and thats when the Spirit provides Spiritual life and blessing to the redeemed ones. This for the Most Part had its largest success after the Cross, though many had it before the Cross, those who were true believers. Then finally there is the Glorified aspect of Salvation, which is yet to come at the second coming of Christ.


I need to think on that, sounds interesting. I believe He did away for the elect, the curse of the law Gal 3:13 and the law of sin and death Rom 8:3-4. But I like to hear more of this when you have time



Roger this isnt farfetched, I believe you derive this from Lk 16 correct ?


These are Three of my Favorites in the scripture. ! Thanks for sharing

Could you explain how people who have never heard of Jesus and His sacrifice on the cross to pay for the sins of the world, are saved?

 

[rogerg]

m not sure I can quite agree with this bro roger, especially when it concerns the believer. Sure the 10 commandments are a great rule of conduct, but we as believers I believe are totally under the Law of Christ Jn 13:34

Hi brightfame52,
Sorry, I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at here? I just can't believe you are saying that
man's salvation is dependent in any part upon what they may do - I know you better than that -- I must be misunderstanding your point.
You are definitely correct in that those who are saved are under the law of Christ, but it is the law itself that places someone under itself, it is not by a person's actions. If it were, I would think that would make it from work not grace.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

I need to think on that, sounds interesting. I believe He did away for the elect, the curse of the law Gal 3:13 and the law of sin and death Rom 8:3-4. But I like to hear more of this when you have time

I think the curse of the law, is that the curse IS the law. Of course, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus,
is not to be considered as included being within that. Not sure that I made it very clear - if not, let me know and I'll retry.

Roger this isnt farfetched, I believe you derive this from Lk 16 correct ?

Not sure re Lk16 - I'll have to reread- but the below verses come immediately to mind - I'm know there are a lot more of them both OT and NT, but it's been a while since I've delved into this topic.
Now, I think there are a lot of symbolic implications within the below so don't want to be too dogmatic or emphatic about it at this point because I could easily have missed something and be wrong, but at least the pieces seem to fit.

[Mat 27:53-54 KJV]
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

These are Three of my Favorites in the scripture. ! Thanks for sharing

Mine too. Thanks for your review.

 

[rogerg]

Could you explain how people who have never heard of Jesus and His sacrifice on the cross to pay for the sins of the world, are saved?

Until becoming saved no one has "heard" the word with spiritual ears - maybe they have with physical ears but those aren't good enough for salvation. Spiritual ears that hear are solely from becoming born-again by the Holy Spirit, but which occurs after, and as a result of salvation, not before.
But I understand the crux of your question. I think the answer to it is that no one is saved by anything they may do to include the hearing of the gospel. Unless someone is first born-again, even though they may hear the gospel a million times it will have no effect upon them because they are spiritually deaf to it - they will be oblivious to it. People become saved for one reason and one reason only: that God had chosen to save them before the foundation of the world. For those whom He as so chosen, He assumes the responsibility, that at a time of His choosing, by one way or another, He guarantees they will be exposed to it, and as a result of that, they come to a true faith in Christ (that faith also being a gift) - but that faith is not what saves - it is all from His work alone, none the work of the recipient - it is fully and completely a gift - that's what makes it of mercy and grace.

[Mar 4:11-12 KJV]
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

 

[rogerg]

But I like to hear more of this when you have time

BTW brightfame52, I'd be happy to discuss with you as is convenient, but please keep in mind that I'm
still learning too

 

[Hopeful]

The sin of having in our hearts the love of, trust in, and desire to follow satan's gospel of working for salvation : the law of sin and death - rather than of trusting in its antithesis: the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
With the condemnation being this:

[Heb 10:29 KJV] 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

We are all born with a love of the law of sin and death within our hearts. Its presence is not a function of human age, it
is a function of spirit and of Adam's sin:

[Rom 5:12 KJV] 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[Rom 5:13 KJV] 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Death passed upon all men, not sin.
Your doctrine condemns every child ever born, (and every person not in their right mind), before they even have an ability to choose.

 

[Hopeful]

I see it in the reverse: those who submit to Him are those whom He has first accepted,
not the reverse.

Your god denies people eternal life.
Thankfully, my God does not.

 

[Hopeful]

No, not any particular works, working for salvation, period:

1. to work, labour, do work

[Rom 4:4 KJV] 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Nonsensical - It is not a strawman, it is the foundation of the gospel

If you depend upon yourself to anything to remit sin, you are following satan, not Christ - Christ
is the Saviour, we are not. He alone is the remedy for sin.
I've said nothing against doing good works and I challenge you to show any post where I have.
What I've said is that those who are saved are to share the gospel with others which is their duty to do, and the
most important gift that anyone can give to another - but, doing so doesn't provide salvation to anyone.
Do you understand what legalism is? My posts are the polar opposite of legalism - they declare that
we are saved solely by grace not by works of law, but there cannot be grace without the existence of election,
otherwise, should there not be such a thing as election, works would be required, at which, all would fail.

If you are intent in defending false doctrine, I can't change your mind.
I will continue to tell the truth, buy what I need, remain monogamous, remain sober, and honor my parents...in order to be saved on the last days judgement.
Liars, adulterers, thieves, and bearers of false witness will not inherit eternal life.
It is written..."Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor 6:9-10)

 

[rogerg]

Death passed upon all men, not sin.
Your doctrine condemns every child ever born, (and every person not in their right mind), before they even have an ability to choose.

Death is from sin - there can't be one without the other, and it is not my doctrine it is the Bible's. Anyway, the doctrine condemns everyone who is born.
If it is someone's choice that decides who is to be saved, then no one would be.

[1Co 15:56 KJV] 56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.