Is believing/faith a work ?

[2nd Timothy Group]

I was just going by the very passage you posted. Note the red:

I hear you. :D

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Romans 3:26
26...so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

Faith first, justification second, the result of faith. Just as it was for Abraham, our example.

Romans 4:23-24
23...not only for Abraham, 24but also for us, to whom righteousness will be credited—for us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Romans 3:26
26...so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

Faith first, justification second, the result of faith. Just as it was for Abraham, our example.

Romans 4:23-24
23...not only for Abraham, 24but also for us, to whom righteousness will be credited—for us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

First on such a list is Spiritual Circumcision. Paul tells us that this is the process that takes a person from Spiritual Death to Spiritual Life.

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - 11 "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature." ... 13 "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

We must first be Circumcised, then given the ability to Repent, then given the Holy Spirit, and then believe in the Power that raised Christ from the dead; placing genuine Faith into Christ. Once these things have been granted and given and exercised, a person is Justified before God.

Just my thoughts . . . and offering an explanation through Colossians, which is rare.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

First on such a list is Spiritual Circumcision. Paul tells us that this is the process that takes a person from Spiritual Death to Spiritual Life.

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - 11 "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature." ... 13 "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

We must first be Circumcised, then given the ability to Repent, then given the Holy Spirit, and then believe in the Power that raised Christ from the dead; placing genuine Faith into Christ. Once these things have been granted and given and exercised, a person is Justified before God.

Just my thoughts . . . and offering an explanation through Colossians, which is rare.

Faith through the hearing of the gospel comes first above all else. Everything begins with the word of God being sown in a person's heart. Some choose to believe in and retain the word of faith and are saved. Most choose to reject the word of faith and are lost. But either way, it all starts with the word being given through which faith is given to believe and receive the word being sown. Most choose to not believe what the gift of faith (Hebrews 11:1) has shown them to be true about Jesus.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

First on such a list is Spiritual Circumcision. Paul tells us that this is the process that takes a person from Spiritual Death to Spiritual Life.

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT - 11 "When you came to Christ, you were "circumcised," but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature." ... 13 "You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins."

We must first be Circumcised, then given the ability to Repent, then given the Holy Spirit, and then believe in the Power that raised Christ from the dead; placing genuine Faith into Christ. Once these things have been granted and given and exercised, a person is Justified before God.

Just my thoughts . . . and offering an explanation through Colossians, which is rare.

Circumcision of the heart in a putting off of the deeds of the flesh is certainly a spiritual reality. But a reality that comes after and as a result of having first believed and received the word of the gospel through the faith that accompanies the hearing of that word.

Faith is a noun. It's a thing. And Hebrews 11:1 says it's a sure conviction of something you can not see and know is true for yourself. Believing is a verb. It's what we do in response to the revelation of the truth of the gospel given to us through the faith that accompanies the hearing of the gospel. As I say, most choose to not respond with believing when they are shown the truth of the gospel through the faith that accompanies the hearing of the gospel.

 

[rogerg]

Romans 3:26
26...so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

Faith first, justification second, the result of faith. Just as it was for Abraham, our example.

Romans 4:23-24
23...not only for Abraham, 24but also for us, to whom righteousness will be credited—for us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

Christ's faith is imputed to those whom He has chosen upon salvation. From that, faith, through the fruit of the Spirit, is given them.
Salvation first, from that, faith.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

 

[rogerg]

Faith through the hearing of the gospel comes first above all else. Everything begins with the word of God being sown in a person's heart. Some choose to believe in and retain the word of faith and are saved. Most choose to reject the word of faith and are lost. But either way, it all starts with the word being given through which faith is given to believe and receive the word being sown. Most choose to not believe what the gift of faith (Hebrews 11:1) has shown them to be true about Jesus.

Until born again, no one can believe: belief is a gift.

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[Jhn 6:65-66 KJV]
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Until born again, no one can believe: belief is a gift.

[Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

[Jhn 6:65-66 KJV]
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

No, all a person needs is a revelation of the Spirit. That's what the gift of faith is. Remember, it's a noun. It's the supernatural ability to know the gospel you can't see really is true (Hebrews 11:1). From there a person either receives or rejects what the Spirit has supernaturally convinced and shown them to be true. That is what makes the damnation of the unbelieving just. They are rejecting something that God has shown them beyond doubt to be true. And so they are without excuse. The revelation of the Spirit makes it so they have no excuse for not believing in something that they in their natural selves have no capacity whatsoever to know is really true or not. You do not have to be born again to have the Spirit speak to you through the word of the gospel.

 

[rogerg]

No, all a person needs is a revelation of the Spirit. That's what the gift of faith is. Remember, it's a noun. It's the supernatural ability to know the gospel you can't see really is true (Hebrews 11:1). From there a person either receives or rejects what the Spirit has supernaturally convinced and shown them to be true. That is what makes the damnation of the unbelieving just. They are rejecting something that God has shown them beyond doubt to be true. And so they are without excuse. The revelation of the Spirit makes it so they have no excuse for not believing in something that they in their natural selves have no capacity whatsoever to know is really true or not. You do not have to be born again to have the Spirit speak to you through the word of the gospel.

Don't think so. Did you notice the "no man can come to me except it be given him of the Father", and that
"he hath blinded their eyes"? Can a spiritually dead person, spiritually see, hear, or think? No, no more than
a physically dead person can.

[Eph 2:5 KJV] 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Christ's faith is imputed to those whom He has chosen upon salvation. From that, faith, through the fruit of the Spirit, is given them.
Salvation first, from that, faith.

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

There's no question that faith - the supernatural ability to know the gospel you can not see really is true - comes via the Holy Spirit. What is being resisted is the Calvinistic teaching that you have to be born again to be shown that the gospel of Jesus really is true.

See, faith (knowing something is true that you can't see) all by itself is not what saves you. It is faith that is retained in believing that justifies/saves. Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness (Romans 4:3). Believing is a verb. It's the action of believing (through the gift of faith, a noun) that justifies, not simply knowing that the gospel is true. The word of God convicts ALL people who hear it that what they are hearing is true. Inherent in the hearing of the word to everyone who hears it is the faith (a noun) to then believe (a verb) what faith has convicted them is true. Only those who BELIEVE what the Spirit has convicted them of are justified. Just knowing the gospel is true doesn't save anybody. Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Don't think so. Did you notice the "no man can come to me except it be given him of the Father", and that
"he hath blinded their eyes"? Can a spiritually dead person, spiritually see, hear, or think? No, no more than
a physically dead person can.

[Eph 2:5 KJV] 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

You're not understanding what I'm saying. All a person needs is for the Spirit to show them the gospel is true. You don't have to be born again for the Spirit to show you something. And that 'showing' comes with the hearing of the word.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Did you notice the "no man can come to me except it be given him of the Father"

The voice of the Holy Spirit in the hearing of the gospel is how it is given to a person to come to the Father. It's an opening of the heart by the Spirit of God. Some choose to receive and retain what God shows them. Most choose not to and reject what God shows them to be true about the gospel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Until born again, no one can believe: belief is a gift.

Faith is a gift. It is the 'thing' through which a person then believes, if he wants to. It is the person who believes that is then born again by the Spirit, being changed and converted and inhabited by the Spirit. Simply being shown the gospel is true can not save you. You must put your trust in that which is being shown to you to be true. That is when conversion occurs. Simply hearing the gospel and being convicted that it is true does not save anybody. You must receive what you hear to be true in order to be saved.

1 John 2:24
24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father.

The hearing of faith is one thing. Receiving and retaining it in believing is quite another. It is only the believing that are justified. What God shows you to be true through the hearing of the gospel has to remain in you in believing for you to be saved.

 

[rogerg]

You're not understanding what I'm saying. All a person needs is for the Spirit to show them the gospel is true. You don't have to be born again for the Spirit to show you something.

I think that I understand you. But that can only happen to those whom God had chosen to salvation, upon becoming born again - it is from the fruit of the Spirit, not by the intellect of the person. Until and unless someone is given a renewed mind and heart, they cannot believe

[Rom 12:2 KJV] 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

[Tit 3:5 KJV] 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[rogerg]

Faith is a gift. It is the 'thing' through which a person then believes. And it is the person who believes that is then born again by the Spirit, being changed and converted and inhabited by the Spirit.

Disagree. Becoming born again by the Holy Spirit must occur first. From/by that, a person believes

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Disagree. Becoming born again by the Holy Spirit must occur first. From/by that, a person believes

Consider Caiaphas who spoke according to the Spirit and yet crucified the very Jesus he prophesied by the Spirit correctly about (John 11:51). You don't have to be born again to hear from the Spirit and know that what He says is true. Lot's of people know the gospel is true. That ability comes to all with the hearing of the gospel. But few have placed their trust, their believing, in that which they know is true, as evidenced by the fact that they do not live for God.

The fundamental problem with Calvinism is it does not properly distinguish between the gift of faith (a noun—the ability to know something you can't see is true) and the believing (a verb) that one does, or doesn't do, in response to the supernatural enabling of faith that comes with and inhabits the preaching of the gospel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Until and unless someone is given a renewed mind and heart, they cannot believe

No, it isn't until God shows a person that the gospel really is true through the conviction of the Holy Spirit that a person can then believe. You don't have to be born again to be convicted by the Holy Spirit. You only need hear him. And that hearing comes through the message of the gospel. And it is from there that a person chooses to either receive or reject what the Holy Spirit shows them to be true. Most choose to reject it and do not retain the word of the gospel within them and they are lost.

 

[rogerg]

The fundamental problem with Calvinism is it does not properly distinguish between the gift of faith (a noun—the ability to know something you can't see is true) and the believing (a verb) that one does, or doesn't do, in response to the supernatural enabling of faith that comes with and inhabits the preaching of the gospel.

I'm not sure I understand you, but it sounds to me like you contradict yourself. If someone knows that something is true, then they both believe and are believing- knowing it true is believing.
How can anyone not be "believing" what they know true? One is a noun, the other a verb, but
extensions of each other, not unrelated or differentiated. Can anyone make themselves unbelieving of something they truly believe true, or vice versa? We either believe and from that are believing, or we don't and can't

 

[rogerg]

You only need hear him.

Can't hear Him until first born again. That is why I posted [Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]. In them, we are told that
they "could not believe". It is impossible to believe things spiritual until given a mind that can comprehend things spiritual. We are all born as "natural man". We must be saved/born again in order to not be "natural man"

[1Co 2:12-14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[GodsGrace]

Corporate salvation? Says you! Whether you realize it or not you're adding to the verses.
Apparently, you either didn't read them closely enough or don't understand them or refuse to accept them.
How can you possibly misinterpret verses that are so simple and direct? There is no corporate implication there whatsoever.

[Rom 9:16 KJV] 16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[Rom 9:18 KJV] 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

BTW: the "him" is singular

We could go through Romans if you like.
Some scholars believe chapters 9 to 11 should have been in their own letter.

First, I'll go thru the verses you posted.
Interesting how I always address your verses, but you just make comments about mine.
No matter.

Romans 9:16
16So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

It's very simple to understand and agrees with your works idea.
It simply states that it is God that shows us mercy in salvation economy, we cannot work for it.

It is not him (a man) that willeth --- it is not a man that can just will salvation on his own...
Nor of him that runneth --- it is not any man's work that saves him...
But God that sheweth mercy --- but it is God that through His mercy shows us the way to salvation.

Romans 9:18
18So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.

The above is referring to Pharaoh. It could be debated if Pharaoh hardened his own heart or if God did.
But let's go ahead and assume that God did. As I've said a few times now...God HAS CHOSEN some persons for special reasons. Pharaoh is probably one, Judas is another, Mary another, Paul another. This does not mean that everyone is chosen in this manner.

In Exodus 9:16 we're told that God spared Pharaoh (against God's wrath) for a reason:
To show God's power and to spread His fame throughout the earth.

Romans 11:22 explains why God has mercy on some and not on others.
On the Israelites because they would not listen to the gospel message.
When the full number of gentiles comes into the fold, all Israel will be saved.
Romans 11:25-26

The above is clearly a message on corporate salvation, as is all of Chapters 9, 10 and 11.

You might be interested in reading the following:

BibleTrack: Bible Commentary - Romans 9, 10, 11, 12

Bible Track is an online Bible commentary and study site plus a Bible reading plan.

www.bibletrack.org

Romans 9-11: A New View of the Doctrine of Election