Is believing/faith a work ?

[Jethro Bodine]

You didn't read what I posted about demons and salvation?

I haven't read all my alerts yet. I'm a working stiff, so I don't have a lot of free time to post. So I do it when I can.

 

[rogerg]

That comprehension of things spiritual, which in this case is the way of salvation through Jesus, comes with the preaching of the word. You don't have to be born again to hear the Holy Spirit. You just need to hear the Holy Spirit! And He speaks when God calls unsaved people to the gospel through the preaching of the gospel.

1 John 5:10
10Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within him; whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given about His Son.

You can see that everyone hears the testimony of the Holy Spirit. Some believe it, cherishing it and retaining it in their heart, while others reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit, in effect calling the Holy Spirit a liar. You have to understand what is being testified to in order to be guilty of being a liar when you reject it.

No. Please read the following carefully:

[1Co 2:13-14 KJV]
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[rogerg]

I haven't read all my alerts yet. I'm a working stiff, so I don't have a lot of free time to post. So I do it when I can.

Oh okay. Then no problem - my fault I didn't consider that.

 

[Cooper]

The word 'faith' in Hebrews 11:1 is a noun. You can verify that here.

Hebrews 11 :: King James Version (KJV)

Hebrews 11 - Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

www.blueletterbible.org

Just click on the parse button next to the word 'faith' in that verse.

Nouns you can touch, hold and see
Can you add a banana to my smoothie?
That’s his favorite book.
Eugene stores the wood in the garage.

Faith is unseen. It cannot be held, touched, smelled or seen.
From Hebrews 11:1
NowG1161 faithG4102 isG2076 the substanceG5287 of things hoped for,G1679 the evidenceG1650 of thingsG4229 not seen.

FAITH G4102 πι´στις pistis pis’-tis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:-assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. (Not a noun)

Total KJV occurrences: 244

I believe (faith) my ladder (noun) will hold me.
.

 

[Free]

Nouns you can touch, hold and see
Can you add a banana to my smoothie?
That’s his favorite book.
Eugene stores the wood in the garage.

Not necessarily.

"Most of us have been taught that a noun is a word that refers to a person, place, or thing. While this is true, it is helpful to think of thing as a broad category; a thing does not have to be something that you can hold in your hand (a mountain, a place, and a feeling can all be things)."

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/what-is-a-noun

BTW, you also missed "smoothie," Eugene," and "garage" as nouns.

Faith is unseen. It cannot be held, touched, smelled or seen.
From Hebrews 11:1
NowG1161 faithG4102 isG2076 the substanceG5287 of things hoped for,G1679 the evidenceG1650 of thingsG4229 not seen.

FAITH G4102 πι´στις pistis pis’-tis
From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:-assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. (Not a noun)

Total KJV occurrences: 244

I believe (faith) my ladder (noun) will hold me.
.

In addition to the above, "faith" is a noun--"Noun Feminine"

https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/pistis.html

 

[Cooper]

Stop the world, I want to get off.
.

 

[brightfame52]

jethro

Faith is the conviction that the gospel really is true. And it comes to the unsaved through the hearing of the gospel.

This is only partially accurate which makes it doubly dangerous. Yes Faith is the conviction that the Gospel is True, the True Gospel that is, but it comes as Good News to the saved, not the unsaved. The Gospel is the Power of God unto them that are saved 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Only the saved, regenerated have spiritual hearing ears.

Believing is retaining the word of the gospel about Jesus that you heard and trusting in it, relying on the blood of Christ to protect you from the judgment and wrath of God.

Yes, but its the Truth about Jesus, its called the word of Truth, not a lie mixed with truth. Also again one believes because they have been saved and not to get saved, if one isn't already saved when they hear it, then it cannot be the Gospel of their Salvation

Few people believe what God has shown them to be true about Jesus.

Aint that the Truth !

Only those people who know and believe (trust) in the gospel are justified and born again through that believing.

Not True. Only them that are already Justified by Christs Blood, and regenerated by His Spirit will believe the True Gospel of their Salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

jethro

That comprehension of things spiritual, which in this case is the way of salvation through Jesus, comes with the preaching of the word.

No, the preaching of the Gospel is external, it comes as a spoken word, but comprehension is internal, in the mind, heart and affections and its provided by the Spirit working inwardly. He gives the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, Paul prays for it Eph 1:17

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

You don't have to be born again to hear the Holy Spirit.

Wrong Jesus implies one must have ears to hear what the Spirit says to His Church Rev 2:7


He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

when God calls unsaved people to the gospel through the preaching of the gospel.

God only calls the saved through the preaching of the Gospel 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those God chose to salvation, sanctified by the Spirit, are called by the Gospel !

1 John 5:10
10Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within him; whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given about His Son.

This confirms what I am saying, those who have the Spirit in them, they are receiving the Spiritual Testimony of Gospel understanding it is Truth

The Spirit witnesses to our spirit of the things of God Rom 8:16

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

1 Cor 2:11,12

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Things reported to us in the Gospel !

You can see that everyone hears the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

Not true, only those whom He dwells in hears His Testimony Spiritually.

Some believe it, cherishing it and retaining it in their heart,

Yes, the saved, the regenerate

while others reject the testimony of the Holy Spirit, in effect calling the Holy Spirit a liar.

Yes the unregenerate, the lost

You have to understand what is being testified to in order to be guilty of being a liar when you reject it.

They understand it naturally with a unrenewed spiritually dead mind and heart, and count it foolishness. 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish[lost] foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

 

[rogerg]

jethro



No, the preaching of the Gospel is external, it comes as a spoken word, but comprehension is internal, in the mind, heart and affections and its provided by the Spirit working inwardly. He gives the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, Paul prays for it Eph 1:17

That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:



Wrong Jesus implies one must have ears to hear what the Spirit says to His Church Rev 2:7


He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.



God only calls the saved through the preaching of the Gospel 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those God chose to salvation, sanctified by the Spirit, are called by the Gospel !



This confirms what I am saying, those who have the Spirit in them, they are receiving the Spiritual Testimony of Gospel understanding it is Truth

The Spirit witnesses to our spirit of the things of God Rom 8:16

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

1 Cor 2:11,12

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Things reported to us in the Gospel !



Not true, only those whom He dwells in hears His Testimony Spiritually.



Yes, the saved, the regenerate



Yes the unregenerate, the lost



They understand it naturally with a unrenewed spiritually dead mind and heart, and count it foolishness. 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish[lost] foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Great job, brightfame52, but unfortunately, I don't think they will be able to take to heart nor truly perceive that which you've posted but there's always a hope.

 

[Free]

Stop the world, I want to get off.
.

Why do you say that?

 

[brightfame52]

Great job, brightfame52, but unfortunately, I don't think they will be able to take to heart nor truly perceive that which you've posted but there's always a hope.

Hey Thanks Roger, but I am indebted to grace for whatever truth I am able to share. Also, sometimes the Truth of the Gospel is primarily meant to be only a witness Matt 24:14

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end com

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Stop the world, I want to get off.
.

I'm ready to roll into Heaven as well. Let's go!!

 

[GodsGrace]

jethro



This is only partially accurate which makes it doubly dangerous. Yes Faith is the conviction that the Gospel is True, the True Gospel that is, but it comes as Good News to the saved, not the unsaved. The Gospel is the Power of God unto them that are saved 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Only the saved, regenerated have spiritual hearing ears.



Yes, but its the Truth about Jesus, its called the word of Truth, not a lie mixed with truth. Also again one believes because they have been saved and not to get saved, if one isn't already saved when they hear it, then it cannot be the Gospel of their Salvation



Aint that the Truth !



Not True. Only them that are already Justified by Christs Blood, and regenerated by His Spirit will believe the True Gospel of their Salvation.

The saved don't need the good news.
They have already received it and accepted it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Great job, brightfame52, but unfortunately, I don't think they will be able to take to heart nor truly perceive that which you've posted but there's always a hope.

Who is "they " ?

 

[GodsGrace]

If you believe God predestines individuals to salvation, then you're calvinist in theology.

The NT does not support calvinism.

This is why it was not heard of before 1,500AD

Do you believe man has free will?

rogerg
I don't think you ever answered the above.
Do you believe man has free will?
This would go a long way in understanding your theology.

 

[brightfame52]

The saved don't need the good news.
They have already received it and accepted it.

Lol, thats backwards, the saved are the only ones the Gospel is good news to. If you received a communication informing you that were saved and a heir of eternal life and will be spending eternity with God in Glory, wouldnt that be good news to you ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Can't hear Him until first born again. That is why I posted [Jhn 12:37-40 KJV]. In them, we are told that
they "could not believe". It is impossible to believe things spiritual until given a mind that can comprehend things spiritual. We are all born as "natural man". We must be saved/born again in order to not be "natural man"

[1Co 2:12-14 KJV]
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Yes, in man's natural day to day condition he neither understands nor cares about spiritual things. It's when God calls a person and they have a visitation of the Spirit revealing spiritual things to them that they are able to see and understand spiritual truth. And it is from this place of spiritual enlightenment that man is given the choice to either believe and receive and retain what God is showing him, or reject it and cast it away in unbelief. Perhaps you're not aware that Calvinism does in fact acknowledge this enlightenment of the unsaved, whether it realizes it or not:

Hebrews 6:4-6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

Remember, in Calvinism, the insistence is that in this passage this tasting and enlightening of the Spirit is that of an unsaved person. But an enlightening that you are saying does not, and can not occur in the unsaved, and that you must be made born again and saved before this enlightening of the Spirit can happen.

 

[GodsGrace]

Lol, thats backwards, the saved are the only ones the Gospel is good news to. If you received a communication informing you that were saved and a heir of eternal life and will be spending eternity with God in Glory, wouldnt that be good news to you ?

If you've won the lottery...
Is it good news to you when you're informed that you've won the lottery?
No. Because you already know it.

The good news is for the UNSAVED.
The good news is that they can become saved through the sacrifice of Jesus and through obeying our Lord.

If a person is ALREADY saved,
how is it good news to them that they are saved?

This problems exists Bright, because the reformed have the ordo salutis backward.
Not the rest of Christianity.

Could you show me how the following proves that salvation comes FIRST and THEN faith...

Ephesians 2:8
8God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

It is God's goodness that saves us
WHEN WE BELIEVED.

When we believe,
God saves us.

First we believe,
Then we are saved.

Both faith and salvation are gifts from God.
Offered from the beginning of time, including those in the OT.

Would you be able to show how it's the opposite using the grammar in the above verse?
(or any other verse for that matter).

 

[brightfame52]

jethro

Yes, in man's natural day to day condition he neither understands nor cares about spiritual things.

That condition lasts as long as a man hasnt been born again, and made Spiritual.

It's when God calls a person and they have a visitation of the Spirit revealing spiritual things to them that they are able to see and understand spiritual truth.

Thats the New Birth, now a person is no longer a natural person.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

jethro



That condition lasts as long as a man hasnt been born again, and made Spiritual.



Thats the New Birth, now a person is no longer a natural person.

Can you explain the contradiction that exists between Calvinism, which says unregenerate man is incapable of having spiritual understanding and enlightenment (he must first be born again to have that), and the enlightenment of the unsaved in Hebrews 6:4-6, which even Calvinism says is referring to the unsaved? Remember, Calvinism has to say Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about the unsaved, or else it has to concede that born again people can fall away. So you have to explain who these unsaved, yet spiritually enlightened people are in Hebrews 6:4-6. The very people you insist don't exist, and can't exist, because you have to be born again first to have that enlightenment. You say a person has to be born again, first, and then have the spiritual enlightenment referred to in Hebrews 6:4-6.