Is believing/faith a work ?

[GodsGrace]

there are many, many more I could post, but these should suffice.

[Rom 9:11, 15-16 KJV]
11 (For [the children] being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) ...
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Oh for goodness sake.
Romans 9 to 11 is regarding corporate salvation.
Get up to date Roger.
On a cell now. Will reply later.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Guess you've never heard of John Wesley.
Or Paul.
Or Peter.
Or James.

I'm beginning to get a solid understanding of what this forum is about. And, I don't think that I'm a good fit. To ask such a question is a total slap in the face (from the Ambassador).

Good luck to you. We won't be engaging in the future.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I know this. My question to you is this something the person does as Justified and regenerate, or unregenerate ?

Believing in the blood is something you do in order to be justified/regenerated.

Again it depends if you were already Justified and regenerate, or unregenerate and condemned when you believed in Christ.

If a person is already justified and regenerated before having faith there would be no need to believe in Christ.

I disagree its only the blood of Christ that Justifies a person, and Faith is the fruit of that !

This is what this thread is all about !

As we can see from the passages I posted, we are justified by having faith in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. We don't have faith because we are justified. We are justified because we have faith. That's what the Bible says.


I know that the underlying doctrine that you want to defend is that believing must be something assigned to you without your consent or will involved in any way, because if it was that would make Christianity a self righteous works gospel. But Calvinism fails to understand that believing in Jesus is not included in the works that can not justify, but rather sharply contrasted with the works that can not justify. Believing in the forgiveness of God is the only thing that you do that can indeed justify you. While all other things can not.

The bottom line is, justification can only be secured by having your unrighteousness taken away through the forgiveness of that righteousness and replaced with God's righteousness. Actually trying to be righteous and turning away from your unrighteousness will never secure the right standing with God that can only be secured through the forgiveness of your sin. Justification can only be given as a free gift through the forgiveness of your unrighteousness.

 

[PeterJens]

What did Christ's role as Savior accomplish if God chooses who will be saved?
What would be the reason for the atonement?
Which theory would cover this sacrifice of the Lord?

How are the verses I've stated the WHAT and not the HOW?

They all state HOW we are to believe and behave IF we wish to receive salvation.
By what and how you mean descriptive and prescriptive....
I've showed you how they are PRESCRIPTIVE.

Now, show me how the above verses do not mean what they say by exegeting them, or by explaining how YOU understand them.

It's of no value to tell me I'm wrong...SHOW ME I'M WRONG.

Post some verse that state THE HOW, which is critical to you.
There must be so many if they're that critical....
Thanks.

Scripture is strange in some ways. A lot of what the apostles are sharing is an emotional view of what is significant to them and how they relate to Jesus. It strikes me we build our models which are often complex and involved and then look for scripture to confirm our model.

In acts Paul is saying goodbye to his friends, and they are all weeping because he has said he will never see them again. I feel this intensity and intimacy, yet in church life I have not experienced this. If one is the type of person to never cry or show emotion to this extent, it is just something one cannot relate to.

The gospel is about the heart and its openness, so when talking to closed people, it is just ideas or facts without much impact. As I get older I realise our fragility is more apparent, and we are much less dismissive. It jolts me now when people say "wrong" and "no" and then cannot follow it up.

It was no small thing to find someone saying either they are right or doomed to hell. This is such a polarised place to be when Jesus uses words like forgiveness, not wishing to bruise a blade of grass, gentleness, patience.

In house group last night we talked about our church and how back in the 1980 about, there was a dispute about moving the pews by 6 inches. Inappropriate repression creates some very angry people.

God bless you

 

[rogerg]

Oh for goodness sake.
Romans 9 to 11 is regarding corporate salvation.
Get up to date Roger.
On a cell now. Will reply later.

Corporate salvation? Says you! Whether you realize it or not you're adding to the verses.
Apparently, you either didn't read them closely enough or don't understand them or refuse to accept them.
How can you possibly misinterpret verses that are so simple and direct? There is no corporate implication there whatsoever.

[Rom 9:16 KJV] 16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[Rom 9:18 KJV] 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

BTW: the "him" is singular

 

[Jethro Bodine]

One of the problems that the "church" faces, is that they haven't a clue as to what Grace actually is.

I would contend that what the church hasn't a clue about is what grace actually does.

Titus 2:11
11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to everyone. 12It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age

I know there's a learning curve as we all grow up into the grace of God, but the condition of the church today indicates to me that, overall, it doesn't have the grace of God in salvation to know that it teaches us to live holy and godly lives. Instead, grace is just a 'have your cake and eat it too' theology of the unconverted. In other words, they think it's a license to purposely sin with eternal impunity. Ultimately, only the unconverted, unfamiliar with the grace of God in salvation, think that. Their disobedient, ungodly lives being the evidence of their unconverted, unsaved state.

When someone truly receives the forgiveness of their sin it changes them. It has consequence. They become new and different people who do new and different things. Love for God in the obedience of God's commands is the sign that you have and value the forgiveness of God, just as Jesus said that was true for the woman who washed his feet with her tears in Luke 7:44-50. The 'Christian' who does not obey God's commands has forgotten about the forgiveness of sin they received (2 Peter 1:9). The gospel has slipped from their hearts. They have fallen away from grace. If they ever really received it to begin with.

 

[GodsGrace]

Scripture is strange in some ways. A lot of what the apostles are sharing is an emotional view of what is significant to them and how they relate to Jesus. It strikes me we build our models which are often complex and involved and then look for scripture to confirm our model.

In acts Paul is saying goodbye to his friends, and they are all weeping because he has said he will never see them again. I feel this intensity and intimacy, yet in church life I have not experienced this. If one is the type of person to never cry or show emotion to this extent, it is just something one cannot relate to.

The gospel is about the heart and its openness, so when talking to closed people, it is just ideas or facts without much impact. As I get older I realise our fragility is more apparent, and we are much less dismissive. It jolts me now when people say "wrong" and "no" and then cannot follow it up.

It was no small thing to find someone saying either they are right or doomed to hell. This is such a polarised place to be when Jesus uses words like forgiveness, not wishing to bruise a blade of grass, gentleness, patience.

In house group last night we talked about our church and how back in the 1980 about, there was a dispute about moving the pews by 6 inches. Inappropriate repression creates some very angry people.

God bless you

Hi Peter
Of course.
Being Christian requires that we live our Christianity and not just talk about it.
Now, some here will not like the word Requires, but actually all Jesus spoke of was how we are to behave in the Kindom. Right here, right now. He spoke of salvation only a couple of times. The rest of His ministry was spent on teaching us how... To get to heaven, and how to live in a pleasing manner to God.

I come across some that claim Christianity but fail to demonstrate it.

Belief is action.
No action, no belief.
Or, at least the kind Jesus would want.

 

[PeterJens]

Believe me . . . I don't. I don't attend today's modern-day "church." Why? Because "it" hasn't a clue as to what the actual Gospel is. Totally . . . utterly . . . clueless just as were the Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the law 2000 years ago.

I have two friends who feel the same way about 90% of the people who go to their own church.
A clue to the actual Gospel, Jesus and his behaviour.

In a house group one lady shared how she found it difficult to witness about Jesus.
My friend got angry and claimed they were denying Jesus and left the group.

They did not see a believer struggling with sharing love and faith in a meaningful way and not being trite.
I have had people who have gone to bible college, know all the verses yet do not know love or openness or how to get alongside another and just help them.

Isolating oneself from others testifies to not coping with interactions rather than love and truth conquering all.
It is easy to build theological castles, much harder to help saints struggle with real issues day to day.

God bless you

 

[rogerg]

Good luck to you. We won't be engaging in the future.

I know how you feel because I often feel the same but reconsider your decision because your input is needed.
Don't perceive it as only a dialogue just between you and wondering, instead, think of your posts as an opportunity to inform and edify many others, even though you may not be aware of them.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I would contend that what the church hasn't a clue about is what grace actually does.

I hear you. When I say that the "church" doesn't understand what Grace is, my point also includes the Effectual Power of Grace. Note that I use italicized lettering on specific Words . . . and that is because they are incredibly Holy Words. Grace is one of the single most important Words throughout the entire Bible.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Isolating oneself from others testifies to not coping with interactions rather than love and truth conquering all.
It is easy to build theological castles, much harder to help saints struggle with real issues day to day.

I read your entire post and heard what you're saying. However, I don't feel that I am isolating myself from the "church." What I would like to do is find a house group (and yes, I currently attend one such group) who understands the Gospel, and we then split into teams of two end begin going to the fallen "church" and begin proselytizing. The idea is to bring the Gospel to the fallen church just as the Apostle Paul first when to the Jewish synagogues and temples.

Those who are primed to receive the Gospel are those in the fallen "church." Let's go!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I know how you feel because I often feel the same but reconsider your decision because your input is needed.
Don't perceive it as only a dialogue just between you and wondering, instead, think of your posts as an opportunity to inform and edify many others, even though you may not be aware of them.

I appreciate that, Roger. However, I have Wondering on Ignore, just as a Moderator would suggest that I do if reason and ration are not on the table . . . and they apparently are not. So, as the world turns.

 

[PeterJens]

Hi Peter
Of course.
Being Christian requires that we live our Christianity and not just talk about it.
Now, some here will not like the word Requires, but actually all Jesus spoke of was how we are to behave in the Kindom. Right here, right now. He spoke of salvation only a couple of times. The rest of His ministry was spent on teaching us how... To get to heaven, and how to live in a pleasing manner to God.

I come across some that claim Christianity but fail to demonstrate it.

Belief is action.
No action, no belief.
Or, at least the kind Jesus would want.

"To get to heaven" is an interesting phrase. I realised the Lords prayer asks that Gods will is done on earth as it is in heaven. We seem to be missing walking with Jesus today is bringing heaven to earth. Often it is assumed heaven or the new earth will be so different. I was struck we have this wrong. Life will continue without the stumbling blocks, but still life. When people leave Jesus they are leaving heaven, not some failed half try doomed to defeat, but heaven realised here and now.

It is why falling away is so serious and so difficult. If one cannot cope with Jesus as is, it will not change in the future. Either you learn the blessing and limitations of life, or you face judgement and rejection. The insane thing is the blessings in Christ are infinite and eternal, going on without end, it is our vision and experience that limits this.

It is why in part I spend less time now on these "theological" debates because they are actually emotional trauma put into christian speak rather than open hearts seeking resolution.

God bless you

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

It is why in part I spend less time now on these "theological" debates because they are actually emotional trauma put into christian speak rather than open hearts seeking resolution.

I'll accept this as sound advice. Thank you, PJ! :D

 

[brightfame52]

jethro

Believing in the blood is something you do in order to be justified/regenerated.

Okay, this is works

If a person is already justified and regenerated before having faith there would be no need to believe in Christ.

Thats absurd, a saved person should believe in who saved them.

As we can see from the passages I posted, we are justified by having faith in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. We don't have faith because we are justified. We are justified because we have faith. That's what the Bible says.

More works

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

If a person is already justified and regenerated before having faith there would be no need to believe in Christ.

Hmmm . . . what did Paul say about those from times past? The below passages are Keystone passages of the entire Bible. They are completely, totally, and utterly important as they relate to the True Gospel of Christ.

When will the "church" begin quoting these Scriptures?

Romans 3:25-26 NLT - "For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus."

Those in times past had to wait for the Day of Christ . . . to believe that Jesus shed His Blood to be made Right with God. Note that this passage does not say that we are made right with God by putting Faith into the blood of Christ. And more . . .

"Colossians 2:12 NLT - "For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead."

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Romans 3:25-26 NLT - "For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus."

... Note that this passage does not say that we are made right with God by putting Faith into the blood of Christ.

But it does. Reread them and you can see that's exactly what they're saying.

Abraham is our example of how a person is credited righteousness by believing God's word about a son. If we are not made right with God through having faith in God's word about Jesus and his blood then how are we made right with God? That way has to be consistent with the way Abraham was made righteous, for that is the very example Paul uses to illustrate righteousness through faith. He was made righteous by having faith in God's word. That is how a person is justified.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

No Jesus didnt tell them they had a choice. In fact one can only repent if God grants it them 2 Tim 2:25-26

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Now ask why it matters how the gospel is presented.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

But it does. Reread them and you can see that's exactly what they're saying.

If we are not made right with God through having faith in the blood of Christ how are we made right with God?

I'm sorry, my friend, but I don't know what else I can offer if the Word of God isn't enough.

That said, I do appreciate your ability to discuss these things with kindness in your heart. Thank you!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm sorry, my friend, but I don't know what else I can offer if the Word of God isn't enough.

I was just going by the very passage you posted. Note the red:

Romans 3:25-26 NLT - "For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus."