Is believing/faith a work ?

[Cooper]

I think the language is very clear. It says the thing that is impossible is that the person who has been enlightened can be restored to repentance, and for the reason given.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

But I agree that this is primarily talking about saved, born again people. But surely it would include an unsaved person whom the Spirit of God has enlightened for the purpose of revealing to them the salvation he wants them to receive.

The plain truth is that whoever we are, we can lose our salvation. The words predestined and elect need to be kept in their correct context.
.

 

[rogerg]

I think the language is very clear. It says the thing that is impossible is that the person who has been enlightened can be restored to repentance, and for the reason given.

Not so clear. You need to read 6:9 too and not just stop in the middle. Here:

[Heb 6:9 KJV] 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

"the things that accompany salvation" are the things of verses 4 - 6 (among other things). And because Paul was persuaded of "better things of you" (of the saved), it meant that what he had said in 4 - 6 could not happen to them nor to any of the saved in general. The use of those verses by Paul were not to inform them of the possibility of their falling away, but instead that they could not fall away once saved. That Paul used 4 - 6 as a theoretical proposition and not an actual/possible proposition, was made clear by the phrase "though we thus speak" in 6:9.
Paul was using "what if" logic (so to speak) to make those of 6:9 (and all of the saved) to understand the ironclad promises of God in order to give comfort, confidence and reassurance to them by saying "the things that accompany salvation", which things, all of the saved were/are/will ever be, in possession of.
Salvation is eternal and once given by God it can't be ungiven, hence the word "eternal".

 

[rogerg]

Heb 6:4-6 is talking about the betrayal of Christ by falling away.

Can't happen or God wouldn't have called it "eternal". BTW the "any man" to include all of the saved, meaning
that nothing even a saved person could do that could cause themselves to perish nor to be plucked out of God's hands

[Jhn 10:28 KJV] 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

 

[Cooper]

Not so clear. You need to read 6:9 too and not just stop in the middle. Here:

[Heb 6:9 KJV] 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

"the things that accompany salvation" are the things of verses 4 - 6 (among other things). And because Paul was persuaded of "better things of you" (of the saved), it meant that what he had said in 4 - 6 could not happen to them nor to any of the saved in general. The use of those verses by Paul were not to inform them of the possibility of their falling away, but instead that they could not fall away once saved. That Paul used 4 - 6 as a theoretical proposition and not an actual/possible proposition, was made clear by the phrase "though we thus speak" in 6:9.
Paul was using "what if" logic (so to speak) to make those of 6:9 (and all of the saved) to understand the ironclad promises of God in order to give comfort, confidence and reassurance to them by saying "the things that accompany salvation", which things, all of the saved were/are/will ever be, in possession of.
Salvation is eternal and once given by God it can't be ungiven, hence the word "eternal".

Why are we told to run the race to the end, and why are we warned against falling away if we cannot?
.

 

[Cooper]

Can't happen or God wouldn't have called it "eternal". BTW the "any man" to include all of the saved, meaning
that nothing even a saved person could do could cause them to perish nor to be plucked out of God's hands

[Jhn 10:28 KJV] 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

It is eternal for the faithful, but not for those who fall away.
.

 

[rogerg]

Why are we told to keep on right to the end, and why are we warned against falling away if we cannot?

We, as the saved, are instructed by God throughout the Bible on how to live and behave
in a God and Christ glorifying manner.
However, no one does so perfectly, nor does falling short make anyone unsaved because we
are under grace and not law.

 

[rogerg]

It is eternal for the faithful, but not for those who fall away.

It is eternal for anyone whom God has saved, otherwise, it couldn't/wouldn't
be eternal were dependent upon us to sustain

 

[GodsGrace]

Exactly!

This is for Roger, brightfame52 , Jethro Bodine ,
2nd Timothy Group and anyone else interested in continuing this conversation.

It is too off-topic.
See the new thread in THEOLOGY.

Please adhere to the TOS Brighfame52.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is eternal for the faithful, but not for those who fall away.
.

Please see the following thread:

CAN A REFORMED BELIEVER FALL AWAY FROM FAITH?

Calvinists believe in Perseverance of the Saints. This means that once God has chosen a person to save, that person cannot fall away from faith or God's grace, or their relationship with God. Since the NT speaks of situations where saved persons DO fall away, does this mean that calvinism...

christianforums.net

 

[Cooper]

We, as the saved, are instructed by God throughout the Bible on how to live and behave
in a God and Christ glorifying manner.
However, no one does so perfectly, nor does falling short make anyone unsaved because we
are under grace and not law.

Grace and law is the difference between the old and new testaments, and has nothing to do with backsliders.
.

 

[rogerg]

Grace and law is the difference between the old and new testaments, and has nothing to do with backsliders.

Nope, grace is grace - there aren't two types. But did you see wondering's warning?

 

[PeterJens]

Can't happen or God wouldn't have called it "eternal". BTW the "any man" to include all of the saved, meaning
that nothing even a saved person could do that could cause themselves to perish nor to be plucked out of God's hands

[Jhn 10:28 KJV] 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

Are you one of Jesus's sheep? Do you listen to Jesus and follow Him?
Amen.

The sign of Jesus sheep are those who pay careful attention to Him.
Jesus spoke to the jews who were saying tell us plainly that you are the Christ.

Jesus is comparing his disciples to sheep. They cannot be what they are, the elect who demonstrate their reality by listening to Jesus.

Motivation is the key issue. Are the people of God loving others because Jesus told them to or because they love and have been changed? Are they loving to earn approval from Jesus or because they know love flowing from them?

I have to say when I was a child I did not know what these words meant. Now I know. Love is God, it is innate in His approach and what He is trying to achieve. People devalue themselves so badly they think possessions and power define how important they are, rather than the Lord of Lords defines who has real value.

God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

It is ironic, the jews wanted Jesus to say He is the Christ.
Instead He said, "I and the Father are one"

So they picked up stones to stone Him. They wanted an excuse to stone Him, not because they loved Him or wanted to know should they follow Him. But then Jesus showed it is simple to see who knows Jesus and who does not.

Those who speak Jesus's words and do what He did, love people, they know Jesus.

God bless you

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Can't happen or God wouldn't have called it "eternal".

Haha . . . you mean we can't have Temporary Life? :D

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Why are we told to run the race to the end, and why are we warned against falling away if we cannot?
.

Yep. I would say that Paul taught us this principle so that we might know, exactly, who and what we are. If we don't Endure, then we know that our Spiritual Father remains to be Satan. But as long as we are properly Enduring, we have a certain amount of assurance.

That said, I can understand why folks have a different view.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

God said,

They will reverence my son. Mk.12:6

God said this because that is his hearts desire, but,

those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come,let us kill him Mk.12:7

And that's what they did. But the fact that God expected them to respect his Son proves Calvanism wrong.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

God said,

They will reverence my son. Mk.12:6

God said this because that is his hearts desire, but,

those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come,let us kill him Mk.12:7

And that's what they did. But the fact that God expected them to respect his Son proves Calvanism wrong.

I hear what you're saying, but I ask for the following consideration. If we trust the message that Paul allegedly spoke, which is that God put Israel into a "deep sleep" so that they could not respond, it would be conflicting if God, at the exact same time, expected Israel to respect Jesus.

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

Because Paul is specifically referring to modern-day Jews in the above Scripture, and because we know that the Jews in the Mark 12 passage set were from the same general era, we can then know that the Jews of that day were still Spiritually deaf, blind, and unable to walk. We know that the Jews mentioned in the Mark 12 passages are of the modern-day era by going to the end of the story where we find and review the following passage:

Mark 12:12 NLT - "The religious leaders wanted to arrest Jesus because they realized he was telling the story against them--they were the wicked farmers. But they were afraid of the crowd, so they left him and went away."

It seems apparent that the majority of Israel was in a "deep sleep," and if this is True, and there doesn't seem reason to deny it, as being in the "deep sleep" would desperately conflict with the idea that God expected the Jews and Gentiles to respect Jesus.

I hope I've given you something positive to think about.

David

 

[journeymanisnothing]

I hear what you're saying, but I ask for the following consideration. If we trust the message that Paul allegedly spoke, which is that God put Israel into a "deep sleep" so that they could not respond, it would be conflicting if God, at the exact same time, expected Israel to respect Jesus.

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

Because Paul is specifically referring to modern-day Jews in the above Scripture, and because we know that the Jews in the Mark 12 passage set were from the same general era, we can then know that the Jews of that day were still Spiritually deaf, blind, and unable to walk. We know that the Jews mentioned in the Mark 12 passages are of the modern-day era by going to the end of the story where we find and review the following passage:

Mark 12:12 NLT - "The religious leaders wanted to arrest Jesus because they realized he was telling the story against them--they were the wicked farmers. But they were afraid of the crowd, so they left him and went away."

It seems apparent that the majority of Israel was in a "deep sleep," and if this is True, and there doesn't seem reason to deny it, as being in the "deep sleep" would desperately conflict with the idea that God expected the Jews and Gentiles to respect Jesus.

I hope I've given you something positive to think about.

David

I have considered what you're saying years ago and for they very point you made, which is, both can't be true. So the only conclusion is that somewhere, the scriptures aren't being understood properly.

In Rom.11:7, "the elect" Paul is referring to are those who live by faith, because from the beginning until the end, God decided people of faith would be the kind of people he wanted to share eternity with,

the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. Gal.3:8-9

God chose the poor of this world rich in faith Jas.2:5

God chose what the world thinks foolish...God chose what is low and despised in the world, what is regarded as nothing 1Cor.1:27-28

These scriptures show us that it's the type of person our Lord chooses, not the individual. Otherwise, every "poor" person is saved, along with every "foolish, low, despised person regarded as nothing."

In Rom.11:8, Paul is quoting the OT, where loss of eyesight may occur over time because of insincerity of heart,

For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.....And the Lord said: "Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men learned by rote Isa.29:10,13

Rom.11:9 goes on to quote David (Psa.69:22), where he's speaking of those who despise Christ. Nowhere in the NT is the idea that people are compelled to stay in rebellion against God,

whenever they may turn unto the Lord, the vail is taken away. 2Cor.3:16

It's true that people who don't have time for our Savior walk in darkness, but they don't have to stay there,

as I am indeed an apostle of nations, my ministration I do glorify; if by any means I shall arouse to jealousy mine own flesh, and shall save some of them Rom.11:12-14

"By any means", means there are means, or ways of explaining the gospel that may benefit those listening.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

he was also chosen and destined for destruction, for he did not belong to God and never did. Judas is the classic example of tasting the goodness of the Father, and he certainly reaped the benefits of living with Christ for a few years.

And so my point stands. The unsaved person enlightened by the Holy Spirit that you and others insist doesn't exist, because you say you first have to be saved and born again to be enlightened, does in fact exist. And that is basis for my argument that an unsaved person is given enough illumination and enlightenment from the Holy Spirit through the message of the gospel to then be able to make a decision to retain the message of the gospel in believing and be saved or choose to reject it in unbelief and be lost.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus said it Himself:

John 6:37 NKJV - "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."

John 6:39 NKJV - "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

John 6:65 NLT - "Then he said, "That is why I said that people can't come to me unless the Father gives them to me."

Okay, so Hebrews 6:4-6 must be talking about unsaved people then. And so my point stands: Unsaved people can be illuminated and enlightened despite the assertion of Calvinists that they can not be illuminated and enlightened until they are first saved and born again.