What's new
By:
Filters
Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Is believing/faith a work ?

Jethro Bodine said:
Can you explain the contradiction that exists between Calvinism which says unregenerate man is incapable of having spiritual understanding and enlightenment (he must first be born again to have that), and the enlightenment of the unsaved in Hebrews 6:4-6, which even Calvinism says is referring to the unsaved? Remember, Calvinism has to say Hebrews 6:4-6 is talking about the unsaved, and it does, or else it has to concede that born again people can fall away. So you have to explain who these unsaved, yet spiritually enlightened people are in Hebrews 6:4-6. The very people you insist don't exist. You say a person has to be born again, first, and then have the spiritual enlightenment referred to in Hebrews 6:4-6.
Click to expand...
Im not prone to explain anything to you just because you ask me to, since for the most part everything I have explained already you either ignore or dont receive it. So I will pick and choose what I will take time to explain to you, no disrespect.
 
This is just my opinion . . . but . . . who cares about John Calvin and what he taught? Are we to follow and believe Calvin, or would it be wise to consult the Scriptures and the teaching Holy Spirit?

Below is an amazing Scripture reference to the future Vine of Christ. Within it is the principle that I have offered above:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 NLT - "The day is coming," says the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. They broke that covenant, though I loved them as a husband loves his wife," says the LORD. "But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day," says the LORD. "I will put my instructions deep within them, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, 'You should know the LORD.' For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already," says the LORD. "And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins."

The above can only happen if Christ has granted Circumcision of the Heart. What is Circumcised and cut away forever? Yes, the Sinful Nature that causes a person to enjoy the acts and will of the Devil. Once the Sinful Nature is cut away, the Spirit is granted (along with Repentance), and a person will begin to develop Holy Knowledge and an overall change in life behaviors.

If we depend upon the Spirit to lead, guide and change us, then we should be able to close the book on Calvin with the rare exception of re-opening it. We should not depend on Calvin or Martin Luther but the Spirit.
 
Last edited:
brightfame52 said:
Im not prone to explain anything to you just because you ask me to, since for the most part everything I have explained already you either ignore or dont receive it.
Click to expand...
I'm not ignoring what you've wrote. I have found a discrepancy in what you wrote and what Hebrews 6:4-6 says and I was hoping you could clear it up.
 
2nd Timothy Group said:
This is just my opinion . . . but . . . who cares about John Calvin and what he taught? Are we to follow and believe Calvin, or would it be wise to consult the Scriptures and the teaching Holy Spirit?

Below is an amazing Scripture reference to the future Vine of Christ. Within it is the principle that I have offered above:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 NLT - "The day is coming," says the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. They broke that covenant, though I loved them as a husband loves his wife," says the LORD. "But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day," says the LORD. "I will put my instructions deep within them, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, 'You should know the LORD.' For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already," says the LORD. "And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins."

The above can only happen if Christ has granted Circumcision of the Heart. What is Circumcised and cut away forever? Yes, the Sinful Nature that causes a person to enjoy the acts and will of the Devil. Once the Sinful Nature is cut away, the Spirit is granted (along with Repentance), and a person will begin to develop Holy Knowledge and an overall change in life behaviors.

If we depend upon the Spirit to lead, guide and change us, then we should be able to close the book on Calvin with the rare exception of re-opening it. We should not depend on Calvin or Martin Luther but the Spirit.
Click to expand...
Calvin aside, is Hebrews 6:4-6 referring to unsaved people? If it is, then it is describing unsaved, yet enlightened unsaved people, which contradicts everyone's assertion in this thread that you have to first be born again to be spiritually enlightened. And if it is describing saved born again people then one has to concede that saved born again people can fall away. Which should we go with?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Calvin aside, is Hebrews 6:4-6 referring to unsaved people?
Click to expand...

Absolutely. All that the Father has given to Christ, He shall lose not one. There is an exception to this list, however, and that exception was Judas Iscariot. That said, he was also chosen and destined for destruction, for he did not belong to God and never did. Judas is the classic example of tasting the goodness of the Father, and he certainly reaped the benefits of living with Christ for a few years. But he was always a "devil."

Acts 1:16 NLT - 16 "Brothers," he said, "the Scriptures had to be fulfilled concerning Judas, who guided those who arrested Jesus. This was predicted long ago by the Holy Spirit, speaking through King David."

John 6:70-71 NLT - "Then Jesus said, "I chose the twelve of you, but one is a devil." He was speaking of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, one of the Twelve, who would later betray him."

John 17:12 NLT - "During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me. I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold."
 
Jethro Bodine said:
And if it is describing saved born again people then one has to concede that saved born again people can fall away.
Click to expand...

Jesus said it Himself:

John 6:37 NKJV - "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out."

John 6:39 NKJV - "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

John 6:65 NLT - "Then he said, "That is why I said that people can't come to me unless the Father gives them to me."
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Yes, in man's natural day to day condition he neither understands nor cares about spiritual things. It's when God calls a person and they have a visitation of the Spirit revealing spiritual things to them that they are able to see and understand spiritual truth. And it is from this place of spiritual enlightenment that man is given the choice to either believe and receive and retain what God is showing him, or reject it and cast it away in unbelief. Perhaps you're not aware that Calvinism does in fact acknowledge this enlightenment of the unsaved, whether it realizes it or not:

Hebrews 6:4-6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

Remember, in Calvinism, the insistence is that in this passage this tasting and enlightening of the Spirit is that of an unsaved person. But an enlightening that you are saying does not, and can not occur in the unsaved, and that you must be made born again and saved before this enlightening of the Spirit can happen.
Click to expand...

Well, no disrespect intended, but I think you've come to exactly opposite interpretation than the
one intended by Paul. Paul used Heb 6: 4 - 6 as a hypothetical to demonstrate that it is NOT possible to
fall away after having been saved and being given the Holy Spirit -- that it can never happen.
How do we know this? Because if we read little further down to 6:9, we see that Paul went on to inform those he had addressed in 6 4-6, that the exact things he mentioned in 6:4 - 6 were/are not in the realm of possibility for someone saved:

[Heb 6:9 KJV]
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

So, in teaching those whom he was addressing, he used that hypothetical as an object to demonstrate, that for those saved, the eventuality of falling away (of 4 - 6) because they were saved, could never happen to them.
He goes on to inform them that he used a hypothetical because in 6:9 he said (and this is important), "though we speak thus", meaning (and I'm paraphrasing) "that even though I used that particular construct, it was intended as demonstration, not notification".

When Paul tells us that in being "ordained to eternal life", it being eternal, well, it is eternal, and therefore, it cannot be lost or taken away. Should your interpretation of those verses be correct, then it could be.

[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
 
rogerg said:
Think I might have to disagree with you a little on this one, 2nd Timothy Group. I believe v 6:9 makes clear
they were saved
Click to expand...

I hear you, however, verses 4 - 6 are about "they" and "them" where verse 9 is about "you."

"They" and "them" were still held by the captivity of the Devil and not yet been set free by Christ. For, when a person is freed by Christ, they have been given the Divine Nature which cannot be overthrown and are thus Spiritually Enabled.

Romans 8:2 NLT - "And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death."

Freed from what? Death, and anyone who is subject to this "death" remains held captive by the Devil to do his will and is unable to escape on their own. Jesus is the Master behind those who receive Circumcision of the Heart, the process that sets a person free from the captivity of the Devil.

2 Peter 1:4 NIV - "Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires."

If a person "falls away," then they have not escaped corruption; they have not escaped the captivity of the Devil, and he remains their Spiritual Father.

But this is why the Heart of the Gospel must be understood as it revolves around the Spiritual Circumcision of the Curse of the Lord. The previous sentence is the very core and context of the entire Bible . . . what are we Redeemed from and how are we Redeemed? Further, who offers this Redemption?

So, let us look at physical circumcision since it points to Spiritual Circumcision. Have you ever heard of a man who wanted to revert back to the ugly, diseased prone foreskin? Who has had their foreskin replaced after having it cut away? Who desires that piece of flesh to be sewn back on; keeping in mind that this is the flesh that caused Adam so much shame! But when circumcision is performed, a man is clean, protected from disease, and is in overall . . . better health and condition. Who would turn against that? Who would revert back to sickness after having been granted health?

Do you see how these things are all talking about the same "thing"?

Please hear this: The entire Bible revolves around Spiritual Circumcision; therefore, anytime that most Holy Word is used, we must, absolutely must pay attention.

Respectfully,

David
 
2nd Timothy Group said:
"They" and "them" were still held by the captivity of the Devil and not yet been set free by Christ. For, when a person is freed by Christ, they have been given the Divine Nature which cannot be overthrown and are thus Spiritually Enabled.
Click to expand...
Hmmm. That was exactly my point. Maybe I wasn't clear enough

2nd Timothy Group said:
If a person "falls away," then they have not escaped corruption; they have not escaped the captivity of the Devil, and he remains their Spiritual Father.
Click to expand...
I was saying that once saved, they can't fall away - and they were saved. That, I think, is the exact point Paul was trying to make that once saved always saved. One cannot be indwelt by the Holy Spirit (as in the hypothetical in
6: 4-6) and yet fall away. That would be impossible, don't you think?

2nd Timothy Group said:
Please hear this: The entire Bible revolves around Spiritual Circumcision; therefore, anytime that most Holy Word is used, we must, absolutely must pay attention.
Click to expand...
David, one of us is definitely not understanding the other. If you would, so that I understand your
perception of my post, please take a minute and say back to me what you think my point was. Thx.
 
rogerg said:
That was my point: not that the saved can fall away but that they couldn't fall away, and Paul was using that hypothetical to demonstrate/illustrate that - not that he was saying they could but that they couldn't
Click to expand...

Beautiful. Where did our paths get crossed? Hard to say . . . but what I do know is that this issue is common in Christian forums.

Tons of Chiefs and very few Indians.
 
rogerg said:
That was my point: not that the saved can fall away but that they couldn't fall away, and Paul was using that hypothetical to demonstrate/illustrate that - not that he was saying they could but that they couldn't
Click to expand...
The stony ground [unregenerate] hearers fall away because they had no root in them, meaning no Christ, no Grace. Jesus describes such here Matt 13:20-21

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Now describing the same stony ground hearer Lk 8:13

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

So if they fall away because of persecution, which was the situation in Hebrews, Jesus said they never were saved, they were never regenerated, ecause regeneration accompanies Salvation.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Yes, in man's natural day to day condition he neither understands nor cares about spiritual things. It's when God calls a person and they have a visitation of the Spirit revealing spiritual things to them that they are able to see and understand spiritual truth. And it is from this place of spiritual enlightenment that man is given the choice to either believe and receive and retain what God is showing him, or reject it and cast it away in unbelief. Perhaps you're not aware that Calvinism does in fact acknowledge this enlightenment of the unsaved, whether it realizes it or not:

Hebrews 6:4-6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

Remember, in Calvinism, the insistence is that in this passage this tasting and enlightening of the Spirit is that of an unsaved person. But an enlightening that you are saying does not, and can not occur in the unsaved, and that you must be made born again and saved before this enlightening of the Spirit can happen.
Click to expand...
Great point Jethro.
 
brightfame52 said:
Im not prone to explain anything to you just because you ask me to, since for the most part everything I have explained already you either ignore or dont receive it. So I will pick and choose what I will take time to explain to you, no disrespect.
Click to expand...
Modus operandi.

Answer what you think you know the answer to.
And ignore the rest.

You're a great overseer brightfame52.

You're supposed to be setting a good example.
 
rogerg said:
Well, no disrespect intended, but I think you've come to exactly opposite interpretation than the
one intended by Paul. Paul used Heb 6: 4 - 6 as a hypothetical to demonstrate that it is NOT possible to
fall away after having been saved and being given the Holy Spirit -- that it can never happen.
How do we know this? Because if we read little further down to 6:9, we see that Paul went on to inform those he had addressed in 6 4-6, that the exact things he mentioned in 6:4 - 6 were/are not in the realm of possibility for someone saved:

[Heb 6:9 KJV]
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

So, in teaching those whom he was addressing, he used that hypothetical as an object to demonstrate, that for those saved, the eventuality of falling away (of 4 - 6) because they were saved, could never happen to them.
He goes on to inform them that he used a hypothetical because in 6:9 he said (and this is important), "though we speak thus", meaning (and I'm paraphrasing) "that even though I used that particular construct, it was intended as demonstration, not notification".

When Paul tells us that in being "ordained to eternal life", it being eternal, well, it is eternal, and therefore, it cannot be lost or taken away. Should your interpretation of those verses be correct, then it could be.

[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Click to expand...
I think the language is very clear. It says the thing that is impossible is that the person who has been enlightened can be restored to repentance, and for the reason given.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.

But I agree that this is primarily talking about saved, born again people. But surely it would include an unsaved person whom the Spirit of God has enlightened for the purpose of revealing to them the salvation he wants them to receive.
 
rogerg said:
Well, no disrespect intended, but I think you've come to exactly opposite interpretation than the
one intended by Paul. Paul used Heb 6: 4 - 6 as a hypothetical to demonstrate that it is NOT possible to
fall away after having been saved and being given the Holy Spirit -- that it can never happen.
How do we know this? Because if we read little further down to 6:9, we see that Paul went on to inform those he had addressed in 6 4-6, that the exact things he mentioned in 6:4 - 6 were/are not in the realm of possibility for someone saved:

[Heb 6:9 KJV]
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

So, in teaching those whom he was addressing, he used that hypothetical as an object to demonstrate, that for those saved, the eventuality of falling away (of 4 - 6) because they were saved, could never happen to them.
He goes on to inform them that he used a hypothetical because in 6:9 he said (and this is important), "though we speak thus", meaning (and I'm paraphrasing) "that even though I used that particular construct, it was intended as demonstration, not notification".

When Paul tells us that in being "ordained to eternal life", it being eternal, well, it is eternal, and therefore, it cannot be lost or taken away. Should your interpretation of those verses be correct, then it could be.

[Act 13:48 KJV]
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Click to expand...
Heb 6:4-6 is talking about the betrayal of Christ by falling away.
It is warning people that what they have in Jesus is heaven, and we are counted innocent in our sin, before we are enlightened, so our innocence is removed if we then choose to reject Christ.

This is both the wisdom of grace and its limitations. It is exemplified in an addict who says they will never do something again, yet continues to betray all who know them, until they are finally rejected, and often end up dead.

Hebrews is telling us though it breaks our hearts, we can do little for such folk.

"ordained to eternal life" is the destination of those who stay faithful.
A marathon runner is not a marathon runner if they do not complete the marathon. You can compete and have a badge to say you tried, but to the Lord that literally means nothing.

They say that a musician grows an extra bit of brain to enable them to play an instrument. Put another way you cannot just turn up and play an instrument first time, you have to change through repetition and trial. A trained soldier has to learn many skills to win a battle, it is not just putting on armour.

We are called to dwell on Gods law, His nature, His will, His intentions. This is because by doing this we begin to see the creation as He sees it, and His will becomes our desire. When you get married you know your partner well, but not in everything, and much is still to explore and grow into. To say your marriage is set at your wedding is foolishness.

God bless you
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top