Is believing/faith a work ?

[Jethro Bodine]

if we read little further down to 6:9, we see that Paul went on to inform those he had addressed in 6 4-6, that the exact things he mentioned in 6:4 - 6 were/are not in the realm of possibility for someone saved:

[Heb 6:9 KJV]
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

No, he didn't say falling away was not in the realm of possibility for them. He said they were convinced the barrenness of thorns and thistles that in the end brings the curse wasn't true of them, for they were indeed bearing the fruit that accompanies salvation. But surely the warning of falling away remains for them for he exhorts them to remain diligent in the things that accompany salvation, making their hope sure.

Hebrews 6:11-12
11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12Then you will not be sluggish, but will imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

But that's not the point. The point is Hebrews 6:4-6 shows us unsaved people can be illuminated by the Holy Spirit and do not have to be born again to be illuminated. despite the assertion of Calvinism that they do.

 

[hawkman]

But that's not the point. The point is Hebrews 6:4-6 shows us unsaved people can be illuminated by the Holy Spirit and do not have to be born again to be illuminated. despite the assertion of Calvinism that they do.

I do believe the Holy Spirit could give an unsaved person an insight of the things of God, but that is about it . Is that what you are saying Jethro Bodine ?

 

[rogerg]

No, he didn't say falling away was not in the realm of possibility for them. He said they were convinced the barrenness of thorns and thistles that in the end brings the curse wasn't true of them, for they were indeed bearing the fruit that accompanies salvation. But surely the warning of falling away remains for them for he exhorts them to remain diligent in the things that accompany salvation, making their hope sure.

No. The good deeds that a saved person may do, occur after salvation, they aren't the accompaniments of salvation, but occur afterwards. However, to be an accompaniment of salvation, they must be manifested with salvation, not afterwards, which accompaniments, bring forth the good deeds a saved person produces.

[Heb 6:4 KJV]
4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I have considered what you're saying years ago and for they very point you made, which is, both can't be true. So the only conclusion is that somewhere, the scriptures aren't being understood properly.

In Rom.11:7, "the elect" Paul is referring to are those who live by faith, because from the beginning until the end, God decided people of faith would be the kind of people he wanted to share eternity with,

the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. Gal.3:8-9

God chose the poor of this world rich in faith Jas.2:5

God chose what the world thinks foolish...God chose what is low and despised in the world, what is regarded as nothing 1Cor.1:27-28

These scriptures show us that it's the type of person our Lord chooses, not the individual. Otherwise, every "poor" person is saved, along with every "foolish, low, despised person regarded as nothing."

In Rom.11:8, Paul is quoting the OT, where loss of eyesight may occur over time because of insincerity of heart,

For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.....And the Lord said: "Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment of men learned by rote Isa.29:10,13

Rom.11:9 goes on to quote David (Psa.69:22), where he's speaking of those who despise Christ. Nowhere in the NT is the idea that people are compelled to stay in rebellion against God,

whenever they may turn unto the Lord, the vail is taken away. 2Cor.3:16

It's true that people who don't have time for our Savior walk in darkness, but they don't have to stay there,

as I am indeed an apostle of nations, my ministration I do glorify; if by any means I shall arouse to jealousy mine own flesh, and shall save some of them Rom.11:12-14

"By any means", means there are means, or ways of explaining the gospel that may benefit those listening.

That all sounds wonderful! I couldn't agree more with everything you wrote and your ideas of the quoted Scripture. Perfect!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

And so my point stands. The unsaved person enlightened by the Holy Spirit that you and others insist doesn't exist, because you say you first have to be saved and born again to be enlightened, does in fact exist. And that is basis for my argument that an unsaved person is given enough illumination and enlightenment from the Holy Spirit through the message of the gospel to then be able to make a decision to retain the message of the gospel in believing and be saved or choose to reject it in unbelief and be lost.

I think that we should throw in the towel and stop going round and round. Neither of us is going to change our position.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I do believe the Holy Spirit could give an unsaved person an insight of the things of God, but that is about it . Is that what you are saying Jethro Bodine ?

Yes, the Holy Spirit gives enough revelation to the unsaved person, and the power to respond to that revelation, for them to be born again. Calvinism insists the unbeliever first becomes born again and then is able to respond to the gospel message. But as I’m showing, the argument that the unbeliever is given spiritual illumination without being born again is the one actually represented in scripture.

 

[rogerg]

Calvinism insists the unbeliever first becomes born again and then is able to respond to the gospel message. But as I’m showing, the argument that the unbeliever is given spiritual illumination without being born again is the one actually represented in scripture.

Really? Then how do you interpret this verse (amongst many other similar verses)?

[Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

 

[Cooper]

Yes, the Holy Spirit gives enough revelation to the unsaved person, and the power to respond to that revelation, for them to be born again. Calvinism insists the unbeliever first becomes born again and then is able to respond to the gospel message. But as I’m showing, the argument that the unbeliever is given spiritual illumination without being born again is the one actually represented in scripture.

And the spiritually blind? What of them?
.

 

[brightfame52]

Now understand, . If faith, repentance, gospel obedience, are the work of man, or the productions of natural man’s own efforts, then his salvation is the fruit of his own labour , his work,

However If faith, repentance, gospel obedience, are the gifts of God of His grace, then it is absurd , to consider them as conditions on the part of man and then his salvation is of grace.25

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And the spiritually blind? What of them?
.

They exist. But it isn't until God calls the spiritually blind unbeliever that his blindness is illuminated for a time in order for him to see what God wants him to believe in. The person who retains the word of that illumination in them in believing is saved through that belief. The person who doesn't retain the word of that illumination is eventually turned back over to the darkness he prefers and is lost.

1 John 2:24-26
24...let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.

26I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Really? Then how do you interpret this verse (amongst many other similar verses)?

[Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Salvation is by the remission of sin. That's what the verse is saying. You can read it in these many versions of the Bible and see that's clearly what the understanding of the verse is: https://biblehub.com/luke/1-77.htm

That's the good news of the gospel. Instead of being saved through the futile effort of keeping the works of the law salvation is granted to a person as a free gift through the forgiveness of their sin. The unrighteousness of that person being washed away by the blood of Christ. The unrighteousness that once separated a person from God, now washed away by the blood, is then replaced with the righteousness of God. The Holy Spirit being the down payment of that righteousness in a person—a promise of payment in full at the resurrection.

You probably know all this in principle, but I'm sharing this to show that's what Luke 1:77 is all about. Salvation is the result of having your sins forgiven through faith and confidence in the blood of Christ to forgive them, not by first being regenerated/born again so you can then believe and receive the gospel, as Calvinism teaches.

 

[Cooper]

They exist. But it isn't until God calls the spiritually blind unbeliever that his blindness is illuminated for a time in order for him to see what God wants him to believe in. The person who retains the word of that illumination in them in believing is saved through that belief. The person who doesn't retain the word of that illumination is eventually turned back over to the darkness he prefers and is lost.

1 John 2:24-26
24...let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.

26I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.

The spiritually blind might be those who have heard a false teacher, missed the way, and joined a cult.
.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No. The good deeds that a saved person may do, occur after salvation, they aren't the accompaniments of salvation, but occur afterwards. However, to be an accompaniment of salvation, they must be manifested with salvation, not afterwards, which accompaniments, bring forth the good deeds a saved person produces.

[Heb 6:4 KJV]
4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

I think the problem is you're viewing "accompany salvation" in Hebrews 6:10 in terms of 'getting saved'. An event. Instead of that which accompanies the state, or condition of being saved.

The condition of being saved is accompanied by the "work and the love you have shown for His name" (Hebrews 6:10). The obedience of love, particularly for the body of Christ, accompanies the genuinely saved person, while the 'field' of the unsaved person is barren of that fruit and bears only thorns and thistles. A useless field that, in the end, will be burned. An obvious illustration of how fruitless, barren, and unsaved unbelievers, exposed to the grace of God via the Holy Spirit, but unresponsive to it, will go to the lake of fire at the end of the age.

Hebrews 6:7-12
7For land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is tended receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.

9Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so.

11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12Then you will not be sluggish, but will imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think that we should throw in the towel and stop going round and round. Neither of us is going to change our position.

Well, I agree that I can't see anybody being able to convince me that the plain words of Hebrews 6:4-6 are somehow supportive of Calvinism. But I'm open.

As I said, if the enlightened, but lost people in that passage are unbelievers then it proves that God does indeed grant spiritual enlightenment to unbelievers that Calvinism says you can only have if you are first born again. And, if the enlightened in the passage are born again saved people then it proves born again saved people can fall away which Calvinism says can not happen. There is no way that I can honestly make the passage mean born again people can't fall away, rather than it mean it's impossible for fallen born again people to come back to repentance. The sentence structure simply doesn't allow it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The spiritually blind might be those who have heard a false teacher, missed the way, and joined a cult.
.

I'm sure that's entirely possible. Unbelievers have various reasons why they have not embraced the truth of the gospel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

John 15:16 NKJV - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

Even in non-Calvinistic theology Jesus does the calling and appointing/choosing. The difference is non-Calvinists understand the timing of his calling is in the scope of his providence, not ours, but the choice to respond positively or negatively to it is ours.

 

[brightfame52]

jethro

. Salvation is the result of having your sins forgiven through faith and confidence in the blood of Christ to forgive them, not by first being regenerated/born again so you can then believe and receive the gospel, as Calvinism teaches.

This is works. Forgiveness of sins is freely given to any and all sinners Christ died for. Thats it. Now how do we know who those sinners are ? Those who the Spirit regenerates and gives the Gift of Faith to believe in Jesus !

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is impossible, for Circumcision of the Heart was taking place well before the Day of Christ. If not, the Old Testament Saints could not have written and sung about their Salvation. Jesus wasn't quite alive as of yet.

Ephesians 4:5-6 NLT - "There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father, who is over all and in all and living through all."

The Old Testament path to Salvation is exactly the same as it is in the New Testament. Therefore, it is imperative that we study the Old Testament Saints to figure these things out.

Surely, circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit has been an act of God in the earth since the beginning. The promise of a 'seed' has not changed. The identity of the promised seed is what has been revealed in this New Covenant, and so circumcision of the heart occurs for us in this covenant when we believe in Jesus, the promised seed of Abraham. But circumcision of the heart has always been the result of believing God's promise of a seed, a son who would inherit the blessing on our behalf and liberate us from our enemy the devil and our exile from the blessings of God.

 

[rogerg]

Salvation is by the remission of sin. That's what the verse is saying. You can read it in these many versions of the Bible and see that's clearly what the understanding of the verse is: https://biblehub.com/luke/1-77.htm

You probably know all this in principle, but I'm sharing this to show that's what Luke 1:77 is all about. Salvation is the result of having your sins forgiven through faith and confidence in the blood of Christ to forgive them, not by first being regenerated/born again so you can then believe and receive the gospel, as Calvinism teaches.

Close but no cigar- that isn't what the other translations teach - not at all - especially since that isn't the gospel message. Observe the words "knowledge" and "by" (also "through" and "in") in the below verses.
Their point is that one must be forgiven (saved) and born from above first, and only by/from that having occurred, do they receive the knowledge of salvation. The knowledge of the spiritual truth of the gospel is only from salvation. And until that knowledge is given by God, they are unable to understand salvation. It would be a logical impossibility for what you're saying to be correct; that is, for someone to know the requirements you state are necessary (faith and confidence in the blood of Christ) they would have to know them before knowing them. In other words, they would have to already know, what they needed to learn.

[Luk 1:77 NKJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people By the remission of their sins,
[Luk 1:77 NKJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people By the remission of their sins,
[Luk 1:77 NIV] 77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins,
[Luk 1:77 ESV] 77 to give knowledge of salvation to his people in the forgiveness of their sins,
[Luk 1:77 CSB] 77 to give his people knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins.
[Luk 1:77 NASB20] 77 To give His people [the] knowledge of salvation By the forgiveness of their sins,
[Luk 1:77 NASB95] 77 To give to His people [the] knowledge of salvation By the forgiveness of their sins,
[Luk 1:77 LSB] 77 To give to His people [the] knowledge of salvation By the forgiveness of their sins,
[Luk 1:77 NET] 77 to give his people knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins.
[Luk 1:77 RSV] 77 to give knowledge of salvation to his people in the forgiveness of their sins,
[Luk 1:77 ASV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people In the remission of their sins,
[Luk 1:77 YLT] 77 To give knowledge of salvation to His people In remission of their sins,

There are a few more, but you should be able to get the idea from the above.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

jethro



This is works. Forgiveness of sins is freely given to any and all sinners Christ died for. Thats it. Now how do we know who those sinners are ? Those who the Spirit regenerates and gives the Gift of Faith to believe in Jesus !

Faith is not a work that can not justify. The scriptures are very, very clear that is the very thing that DOES justify. Believing in the promise is clearly distinguished from works of the law as to that which justifies. There is no boast of self-righteousness in believing God's offer of forgiveness and reconciliation through the blood of Christ. Paul is very clear about this.