Is believing/faith a work ?

[brightfame52]

jethro

and so circumcision of the heart occurs for us in this covenant when we believe in Jesus, the promised seed of Abraham

Incorrect, the circumcision of the heart, which is regeneration, must happen first in order to believe in Jesus, the True Jesus that is !

 

[brightfame52]

Faith is not a work that can not justify. The scriptures are very, very clear that is the very thing that DOES justify. Believing in the promise is clearly distinguished from works of the law as to that which justifies. There is no boast of self-righteousness in believing God's offer of forgiveness and reconciliation through the blood of Christ. Paul is very clear about this.

If you condition salvation on your believing, thats works. Also forgiveness of sins isn't offered, its given to them Christ died for. Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

What you talking about isnt taught by Paul, or Peter, its not even in the scripture.

 

[rogerg]

I think the problem is you're viewing "accompany salvation" in Hebrews 6:10 in terms of 'getting saved'. An event. Instead of that which accompanies the state, or condition of being saved.

Nope. That of 6:10 is not which accompanies salvation, instead, they are works FROM salvation. To be that which accompanies salvation, well, it must accompany salvation, and not an after effect of salvation.

Hebrews 6:7-12
7For land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is tended receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.

9Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so.

11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12Then you will not be sluggish, but will imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.

Again, works FROM salvation: the byproducts of salvation;

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Close but no cigar- that isn't what the other translations teach - not at all - especially since that isn't the gospel message.

Actually, the forgiveness of sin is the gospel (the good news - that's what gospel means).


Acts 13:32-39
32And now we proclaim to you the good news: What God promised our fathers 33He has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus.

38Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nope. That of 6:10 is not which accompanies salvation, instead, they are works FROM salvation. To be that which accompanies salvation, well, it must accompany salvation, and not an after effect of salvation.

Like I say, you're misunderstanding 'salvation' in the passage to mean the event of being saved instead of the state, or condition of already being saved and what accompanies that. In context it's easy to see that the thing that accompanies salvation is a crop useful for whom the land is tended, not barrenness.

Hebrews 6:7-10
7For land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is tended receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.

9Even though we speak like this (about barren land), beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case (fruitfulness)—things that accompany salvation. 10For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so (your fruitfulness).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

To be that which accompanies salvation, well, it must accompany salvation, and not an after effect of salvation.

We see a clear example of what I'm saying here.

Luke 7:49
47...because her many sins have been forgiven, she has loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little.”

50And Jesus told the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

So we can see the obedience of love is indeed the EFFECT of being saved, and accompanies the state of being saved. And so your works, wrought from your salvation, your new righteous nature given to you as a free gift, bear witness to the fact that you are savedm, making your hope sure.

Hebrews 6:9-11
9Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so.

11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

The spiritually blind might be those who have heard a false teacher, missed the way, and joined a cult.

When a person is Powerfully Known by Christ, that person will never, ever choose another way.

John 9:39-41 NLT - "Then Jesus told him, "I entered this world to render judgment--to give sight to the blind and to show those who think they see that they are blind." Some Pharisees who were standing nearby heard him and asked, "Are you saying we're blind?" "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty," Jesus replied. "But you remain guilty because you claim you can see."

Throughout the entire Bible, John chapter 9 . . . all of it . . . is vital as one craves to understand the Gospel. Verses 39-41 are three of the most important verses within our unbelievable Bible.

Anyone who has received sight undergoes a massive reality check and change of life. Imagine how your life would change if you were born blind, only to be given sight halfway through your life? I can only imagine how much a person's life would change if they could all of a sudden "See" after forty years, for example.

Well, that's exactly what happens to the Lord's True Children . . . they Transform . . . and they stay that way just as when a man is circumcised, he stays that way. No man reverts back to the old, shameful foreskin.

What a powerful experience to receive eyesight, but oh my, what a Powerful experience to receive Spiritual Circumcision and the Indwelling Holy Spirit.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Well, I agree that I can't see anybody being able to convince me that the plain words of Hebrews 6:4-6 are somehow supportive of Calvinism. But I'm open.

That's cool. And actually, I am very thankful that you're able to talk about these things without becoming rude. You're rare, and I like it a lot. Thank you so much.

Oh, by the way, I know nothing of Calvanism. I used to decades ago, but it's been so many years of not caring about that stuff that I honestly don't recall one stitch of it . . . and dun't care. haha

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Surely, circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit has been an act of God in the earth since the beginning. The promise of a 'seed' has not changed. The identity of the promised seed is what has been revealed in this New Covenant, and so circumcision of the heart occurs for us in this covenant when we believe in Jesus, the promised seed of Abraham. But circumcision of the heart has always been the result of believing God's promise of a seed, a son who would inherit the blessing on our behalf and liberate us from our enemy the devil and our exile from the blessings of God.

Nice!

 

[rogerg]

So we can see the obedience of love is indeed the EFFECT of being saved, and accompanies the state of being saved. And so your works, wrought from your salvation, your new righteous nature given to you as a free gift, bear witness to the fact that you are savedm, making your hope sure.

No. "wrought from your salvation", is the crux of your post. But that which accompanies salvation isn't "wrought from" salvation- It ACCOMPANIES it: yours, is after the fact and is caused by it; mine, is a part of, and within it. The verse says "accompanies" or it being a part of and within it, not caused by it.
At this point, I think we've pretty much beaten this issue to death, so I'm pretty much done with it.

 

[rogerg]

Like I say, you're misunderstanding 'salvation' in the passage to mean the event of being saved instead of the state, or condition of already being saved and what accompanies that. In context it's easy to see that the thing that accompanies salvation is a crop useful for whom the land is tended, not barrenness.

Salvation begins when one becomes saved.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

That all sounds wonderful! I couldn't agree more with everything you wrote and your ideas of the quoted Scripture. Perfect!

I think if we look at them with normal understanding that any person could see, the idea would be plain,

Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Jn.14:11

It's obvious, our Lord is referring to what he says and what he does, as being sufficent to cause belief.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

jethro



Incorrect, the circumcision of the heart, which is regeneration, must happen first in order to believe in Jesus, the True Jesus that is !

That's how I read the Bible. No one can please God until they are Redeemed from the Curse of the Lord. For, this is the purpose of the Curse . . . to belong to the Devil as his unholy child. To believe, one must be given a new Heart and Spirit. Below is an example from Ezekiel that describes the very core of our Faith:

Ezekiel 36:25-27 KJV - "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Isn't the Gospel of Jesus Christ absolutely incredible?! I love the Mysterious Plan of God.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

That's an interesting double post. I'm not sure how that happened, but ok.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Eze.36 is a great chapter about Jesus,

And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. vs.23

And so,

Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: Eph.1:21

There it is! Thank you Lord Jesus!

 

[PeterJens]

If you condition salvation on your believing, thats works. Also forgiveness of sins isn't offered, its given to them Christ died for. Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

What you talking about isnt taught by Paul, or Peter, its not even in the scripture.

There is a miss-understanding among those who hold God does everything.
He is the Lord of All, He lives as the Father, who knows all. And He waits for His creation to acknowledge their debt to Him. It is in His nature, not to shout His own praise, but in a sense earn it, for creation itself to arise in a song of praise because literally they love Him and Praise Him for who He is.

So you have Israel, who have been commanded to wipe out all the tribes living in Canaan but a group appear, faking they are far off, to get an agreement with Israel to not attack or kill them. Explicit in this deception is the phrase,

"The men of Israel sampled their provisions but did not inquire of the LORD." Jos 9:14

The Lord calls us to seek Him, to find Him, to ask. The Lord has done everything to demonstrate who and what He is, His nature and His terms. For false gods, people will sacrifice their children, build odd poles, have strange and elaborate ceremonies, but the Lord just desires us and honesty.

It is a hard thing to say, but if one thinks the Lord is happy if we do not respond, are passive and ignore the real issues and change, a life and interactions that do not give glory to the Son, then something is wrong.

A light, jewels in a mortal body, shine out, are undeniable.

Someone wrote a chorus about Jesus fighting through to save His people, puts the idea that Jesus keeps people despite who they are and their lostness. But Jesus makes people found, He takes away their lostness so they know they are found. Beside these folk Jesus stands and works His purposes. One is not found until you begin to walk the path and following. God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

Absolutely. All that the Father has given to Christ, He shall lose not one. There is an exception to this list, however, and that exception was Judas Iscariot. That said, he was also chosen and destined for destruction, for he did not belong to God and never did. Judas is the classic example of tasting the goodness of the Father, and he certainly reaped the benefits of living with Christ for a few years. But he was always a "devil."

Acts 1:16 NLT - 16 "Brothers," he said, "the Scriptures had to be fulfilled concerning Judas, who guided those who arrested Jesus. This was predicted long ago by the Holy Spirit, speaking through King David."

John 6:70-71 NLT - "Then Jesus said, "I chose the twelve of you, but one is a devil." He was speaking of Judas, son of Simon Iscariot, one of the Twelve, who would later betray him."

John 17:12 NLT - "During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me. I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold."

A simple proposition to you. Let me suggest salvation has 20 steps. Each one needs to be completed properly for salvation to exist, and within each is the promise of fulfilment and encouragement to continue.

One can say the process has begun, if one is halfway through, and still not complete, with the hope of its perfection. There is a definitive point where tasting the eternal relationship has taken place, and the door out is much worse than it would be if the path had never started, but it is there.

There are not simple words or summaries that can clearly describe the process or walk, other than all who are saved walk it. There is the eternal touching the mortal, and eternal life is given, as in the eternal is there to be taken and fulfilled but not yet actually realised, as in Jesus has not returned, the final resurrection of the dead has not happened so it is still a promise.

Stepping back from eternity the Lord knows who will walk the path and find Jesus, and it is clear in those who reach maturity. But until that point is reached much is still up to debate.

What I will oppose is the idea that people have arrived, that discipleship is getting into the club and then you just belong, which simply denies the walk and derails salvation and who Jesus is. It is why I will witness to this walk and call people as Jesus does, as an ambassador to follow Him and His ways.

God bless you

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

There are not simple words or summaries that can clearly describe the process or walk, other than all who are saved walk it.

Sure there are! I'm sorry, and I mean it, that our "pastors" and "teachers" have not shown the world these ultra-clear passages. In fact, when I first found them, I have to admit that I was pretty angry.

I highly recommend that all read the [entire] Bible with the question in mind . . . "What is necessary for Salvation?"

To begin this study, it is imperative that a person read the Bible in a timeline, chronological order so that they can actually learn the Story of God . . . AKA, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

It is in His nature, not to shout His own praise

I am sorry to say this, but as I have catalogued each Scripture that outlines the Power of God through the entire Bible, it became very clear that the single most important concept that we can gleen from the Bible is His Power.

Perform a cross reference check on the below Scripture and discover how many times the Lord says essentially this same phrase . . . "Then they will know that I am the Lord!"

Ezekiel 29:9 NKJV - "And the land of Egypt shall become desolate and waste; then they will know that I am the LORD, because he said, 'The River is mine, and I have made it."

Ezekiel 30:8 NKJV - "Then they will know that I am the LORD, When I have set a fire in Egypt And all her helpers are destroyed."

Consistently, God discusses His Almighty Power, and He is not shy in doing so. If we can come to acknowledge the Lord's Almighty Power, perhaps then a person might begin to feel genuine "fear of the Lord." This is not a terrifying fear, but a fear of reverence and respect. A person who comes to know this fear also experiences the Lords assurance and safety is His Right Hand of Salvation.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Salvation begins when one becomes saved.

I don't think anyone argues with that. The point is when salvation starts there are things that are going to accompany that person's salvation from that point forward. Hebrews 6:10-11 identified that for the Hebrews as being "your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so." John echoes this sentiment in 1 John 5:1-2. The obedience to love others, particularly the church, is what accompanies salvation.

1 John 5:1-2
1...everyone who loves the Father also loves those born of Him. 2By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments.

The obedience of keeping God's commands, particularly the command to love the brethren, is what saved people do. That obedience is what accompanies salvation.