Is believing/faith a work ?

[brightfame52]

2 TG

That's how I read the Bible. No one can please God until they are Redeemed from the Curse of the Lord. For, this is the purpose of the Curse . . . to belong to the Devil as his unholy child. To believe, one must be given a new Heart and Spirit. Below is an example from Ezekiel that describes the very core of our Faith:

Correct, until one is regenerate, they are in the flesh, and so being, they cannot please God, which Faith in Christ does Rom 8:8
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The they here can only mean the unregenerate without the Spirit.

Because believers, no matter how carnal they may at times conduct themselves[1 Cor 3], nevertheless because indwelt by the Spirit, Paul says they are not in the flesh Rom 8:9

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

So again, those in the flesh in Rom 8:8 can only refer to the unregenerate !

Ezekiel 36:25-27 KJV - "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Yes this passage surely witnesses to regeneration before Faith. And these are blessings conferred upon all for whom Christ died, the Surety of the Covenant !

 

[brightfame52]

There is a miss-understanding among those who hold God does everything.
He is the Lord of All, He lives as the Father, who knows all. And He waits for His creation to acknowledge their debt to Him. It is in His nature, not to shout His own praise, but in a sense earn it, for creation itself to arise in a song of praise because literally they love Him and Praise Him for who He is.

So you have Israel, who have been commanded to wipe out all the tribes living in Canaan but a group appear, faking they are far off, to get an agreement with Israel to not attack or kill them. Explicit in this deception is the phrase,

"The men of Israel sampled their provisions but did not inquire of the LORD." Jos 9:14

The Lord calls us to seek Him, to find Him, to ask. The Lord has done everything to demonstrate who and what He is, His nature and His terms. For false gods, people will sacrifice their children, build odd poles, have strange and elaborate ceremonies, but the Lord just desires us and honesty.

It is a hard thing to say, but if one thinks the Lord is happy if we do not respond, are passive and ignore the real issues and change, a life and interactions that do not give glory to the Son, then something is wrong.

A light, jewels in a mortal body, shine out, are undeniable.

Someone wrote a chorus about Jesus fighting through to save His people, puts the idea that Jesus keeps people despite who they are and their lostness. But Jesus makes people found, He takes away their lostness so they know they are found. Beside these folk Jesus stands and works His purposes. One is not found until you begin to walk the path and following. God bless you

Sir you lost me with all this !

 

[rogerg]

I don't think anyone argues with that. The point is when salvation starts there are things that are going to accompany that person's salvation from that point forward.

And no one is arguing that those who have been saved don't grow in certain aspects of salvation over time. But....there are also fundamental spiritual "things" that are given, which accompany salvation, that begin WITH salvation, and that they cause, direct, and maintain the human aspects/manifestations of one's salvation - they do not just pop up out of nowhere of themselves.

Anyway, please explain what your point is with all this because we've been going round and round on it
for a while and at a certain point the juice just ain't worth the squeeze.

 

[rogerg]

The obedience of keeping God's commands, particularly the command to love the brethren, is what saved people do. That obedience is what accompanies salvation.

No - that one has been saved alone is why they are obedient. Those saved are given obedience to the faith
as a gift. That they do so, is NOT of themselves, but only of God. Please read closely:

[Rom 1:5-6 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

[1Pe 1:2 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And no one is arguing that those who have been saved don't grow in certain aspects of salvation over time. But....there are also fundamental spiritual "things" that are given, which accompany salvation, that begin WITH salvation, and that they cause, direct, and maintain the human aspects/manifestations of one's salvation - they do not just pop up out of nowhere of themselves.

Anyway, please explain what your point is with all this because we've been going round and round on it
for a while and at a certain point the juice just ain't worth the squeeze.

I was addressing your contention below:

Nope. That of 6:10 (Hebrews 6:10) is not which accompanies salvation, instead, they are works FROM salvation. To be that which accompanies salvation, well, it must accompany salvation, and not an after effect of salvation.

The good deeds that a saved person may do, occur after salvation, they aren't the accompaniments of salvation, but occur afterwards. However, to be an accompaniment of salvation, they must be manifested with salvation, not afterwards

But now you seem to be saying the same thing I was saying?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No - that one has been saved alone is why they are obedient.

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with this. Obedience is the result of becoming a saved, born again person. Obedience is what accompanies salvation. That's what Hebrews 6:9-11 says.

 

[PeterJens]

Sir you lost me with all this !

If I lost you, then clearly these ideas or perspective is new to you.

The Lord is very meek, even quiet. It is strange to think of the Lord of all creation is in one sense always at peace, always content, not needing to be grandiose or boastful. The Lord is, as His own name "I am" defines. He is the ultimate reference point, the beginning and end of all things. In one sense all of life is experienced up close and personal, yet with an eternal perspective we can stand and see what matters.

We are called to be like Him, to follow His example, to be declarers as He is of the gospel.
Now if we can become like Him, follow His example as Paul did, then we will know the freedom He walked in.

This gospel is very hard for people to accept, because they spend most of their lives trying to control their responses and feelings and literally feeling out of control and scared to let go. But Jesus calls us to know Him, to let ourselves feel, to work through who we are and arrive with Him in eternity.

I know this for many is like another world, for some the person they are is a construction of who they think they should be and have never allowed themselves to be who they are.

God bless you

 

[rogerg]

But now you seem to be saying the same thing I was saying?

Huh? No, I most definitely am not saying what you're saying? Don't see how you came to that conclusion. I am saying there are spiritual things that accompany salvation. There is also fruit FROM, or as a result of, salvation caused by that which accompanied salvation. Did you see the verses I included in my prior post?

 

[rogerg]

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees with this. Obedience is the result of becoming a saved, born again person. Obedience is what accompanies salvation.

The verses I posted say that obedience is a fruit of salvation not that it accompanies salvation - hence the "FOR obedience" in v5: it is not through nor by us, but rather, exclusively FROM the grace and apostleship GIVEN by God, and therefore, those whom God saves will/must become obedient to the faith because it is God who makes it so. Is that what you believe?

[Rom 1:5-6 KJV]
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

[1Pe 1:2 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

[brightfame52]

If I lost you, then clearly these ideas or perspective is new to you.

The Lord is very meek, even quiet. It is strange to think of the Lord of all creation is in one sense always at peace, always content, not needing to be grandiose or boastful. The Lord is, as His own name "I am" defines. He is the ultimate reference point, the beginning and end of all things. In one sense all of life is experienced up close and personal, yet with an eternal perspective we can stand and see what matters.

We are called to be like Him, to follow His example, to be declarers as He is of the gospel.
Now if we can become like Him, follow His example as Paul did, then we will know the freedom He walked in.

This gospel is very hard for people to accept, because they spend most of their lives trying to control their responses and feelings and literally feeling out of control and scared to let go. But Jesus calls us to know Him, to let ourselves feel, to work through who we are and arrive with Him in eternity.

I know this for many is like another world, for some the person they are is a construction of who they think they should be and have never allowed themselves to be who they are.

God bless you

You talking about the works of man !

 

[brightfame52]

rogerg

The verses I posted say that obedience is a fruit of salvation not that it accompanies salvation - hence the "FOR obedience" in v5: it is not through nor by us, but rather, exclusively FROM the grace and apostleship GIVEN by God, and therefore, those whom God saves will/must become obedient to the faith because it is God who makes it so. Is that what you believe?

Hey Roger, not that I agree with that other poster, but I think its okay to say that all evangelical obedience, Faith, Repentance etc. do accompany Salvation. I believe regeneration is an aspect of Salvation. So when we believe the Truth, or Obey the Truth its evidence we have been born again or regenerated. So I guess what I am saying for those things to be the fruit of Salvation is not different in saying they accompany Salvation. If there is a big difference Im open for correction.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The verses I posted say that obedience is a fruit of salvation not that it accompanies salvation

Hebrews 6:19-11 says it accompanies salvation. Now what?

What is the significance of your argument anyway, just so I understand?

 

[rogerg]

So I guess what I am saying for those things to be the fruit of Salvation is not different in saying they accompany Salvation. If there is a big difference Im open for correction.

What I wanted to point out brightfame52, is that I think what you mention above is once removed from that which accompanies salvation. What I was trying to demonstrate was the verses' references to obedience (as an example) -- that obedience is actually from/by the "grace and apostleship" which does accompany salvation, obedience is not directly from it. I probably could have done a better job of explaining it though. I guess in a sense the argument could be made that if God gives the things that accompany salvation which results in certain actions (of the saved) occurring, then it might be said, in a sense, that He also gave their results too - kind of like the offspring of a seed, but the point under discussion (as I recall it), was not results of salvation, but rather what directly accompanies it.
Anyway, the way I see it, is that there are certain fundamental spiritual things given at salvation
which cause of all of their Christian spiritually oriented actions and results. Please observe the "for obedience" below.

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I'm curious about one of my posts being deleted, as I received a notification of such an action. Was it because I did something wrong?

Thank you to whoever can answer my question. I've never seen this before at any other forum.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

What I wanted to point out brightfame52, is that I think what you mention above is once removed from that which accompanies salvation. What I was trying to demonstrate was the verses' references to obedience (as an example) -- that obedience is actually from/by the "grace and apostleship" which does accompany salvation, obedience is not directly from it. I probably could have done a better job of explaining it though. I guess in a sense the argument could be made that if God gives the things that accompany salvation which results in certain actions (of the saved) occurring, then it might be said, in a sense, that He also gave their results too - kind of like the offspring of a seed, but the point under discussion (as I recall it), was not results of salvation, but rather what directly accompanies it.
Anyway, the way I see it, is that there are certain fundamental spiritual things given at salvation
which cause of all of their Christian spiritually oriented actions and results. Please observe the "for obedience" below.

Please allow me to read this a few more times.

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

Now the way I understand this verse is that God chose Paul to the be the instrument by which by His Preaching, many Gentiles will become obedient to the Faith or converted.

Much like Acts 26:17-18

17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

 

[rogerg]

Hebrews 6:19-11 says it accompanies salvation. Now what?

I'll try this again. Certain things accompany salvation. Those things are what brings forth the fruit of salvation, but the fruit of salvation is not that which accompanies salvation: instead, that which accompanies it, produces it. I tried to explain this in a prior post. Grace and apostleship accompany salvation, they result in obedience which is their fruit. You're confusing "accompany" with "fruit". See the following verse. Does it make sense to you?

[Rom 1:5 KJV] 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

What is the significance of your argument anyway, just so I understand?

That's exactly what I just asked you in a prior post. As far as I'm concerned, you're the one who began, and is continuing this dialogue, not me. So, as this is getting both tiring and boring, and since the original reason has been lost, unless you can think of a good reason not to, let's consider it over - I'm sure it will raise its head again sometime in the future.

 

[rogerg]

Now the way I understand this verse is that God chose Paul to the be the instrument by which by His Preaching, many Gentiles will become obedient to the Faith or converted.

Christ, not Paul

[Rom 1:3-5 KJV]
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

 

[rogerg]

Much like Acts 26:17-18

17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,

18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Christ's faith accompanies salvation. How do we know that? Because Christ tells us in V18, that it is "by faith that is in me" - in other words, by the faith that exists within (not towards) Christ Himself and so is not of the person. That faith is one of the things that accompanies salvation in order to "turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God", is its fruit.

[Act 26:18 KJV] 18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

 

[brightfame52]

roger

Christ's faith accompanies salvation.

Sure because the Holy Spirit accompanies Salvation and Faith is a fruit of Christs Spirit

That faith is one of the things that accompanies salvation in order to "turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God", is its fruit.

Agreed. Most certainly Christ is the source of our Faith and Repentance, He gives them Acts 5:31

31 Him[Christ] hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Heb 12:2
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The word author is the same greek word prince in Acts 5:31 So He gives both when He quickens with the New Birth

 

[PeterJens]

You talking about the works of man !

Thank you for this response. It has taken me sometime to put your approach into the language I use.
A work of God is a believer praising Jesus. A work of God is a follower of Jesus loving their enemy.

The miracle is the door being opened in our hearts, the slave being set free, those bound finding they are able to do what was impossible.

Without these works of God in our lives we do not know the Lord. It is not difficult to stop feeling a particular way about someone else, once you begin to see you are just like them, which an emphasis here or there that different. What makes this possible is knowing Jesus love us. This reality in our hearts transforms everything.

Sinners are not happy folk, are not choosing their bondage and slavery. But what happens if you project religion on top of this slavery? You get a faith without power or change, a walk that is no different than unbelievers. Unbelievers often say faith is a crutch to make life more able to cope with, rather than Jesus is the fountain of life, so to be without Him is to be dead.

the LORD, is my strength and my song; he has become my salvation.
Isaiah 12:2

God bless you