Is Calvinism Self Defeating?

[Free]

One of the main problems with the anti-Calvinist/pro-free will argument, as I see it, is that every unsaved person is a slave to sin, the flesh, and the devil (Rom 6:17, 20; 7:5, 18, 25; 8:8; 2 Cor 4:4; etc.). They prefer the darkness to the light, and evil over good (John 3:19-20); "no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside" (Rom 3:11-12, ESV). It seems that absolutely no one can choose salvation, in the least because they simply don't want to.

As such, in order for anyone to "choose" salvation, God must first do a work upon the heart by the Holy Spirit. And, yet, we know that most people will not be saved, including many who hear the gospel. So, it strongly appears then, that God, according to the non-Calvinist, is choosing in real-time who gets saved and who doesn't. How is that ultimately any different than if he chose those who would be saved before the beginning of the world?

 

[Iconoclast]

One of the main problems with the anti-Calvinist/pro-free will argument, as I see it, is that every unsaved person is a slave to sin, the flesh, and the devil (Rom 6:17, 20; 7:5, 18, 25; 8:8; 2 Cor 4:4; etc.). They prefer the darkness to the light, and evil over good (John 3:19-20); "no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside" (Rom 3:11-12, ESV). It seems that absolutely no one can choose salvation, in the least because they simply don't want to.

As such, in order for anyone to "choose" salvation, God must first do a work upon the heart by the Holy Spirit. And, yet, we know that most people will not be saved, including many who hear the gospel. So, it strongly appears then, that God, according to the non-Calvinist, is choosing in real-time who gets saved and who doesn't. How is that ultimately any different than if he chose those who would be saved before the beginning of the world?

Hello Free,
Truly the fall into sin and death was a devastating event.
Yet we are told God has an eternal purpose that He has made known to the Church.
Eph3:
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

We see this in scripture revealed both from the Divine side and from our point of view.
This is where much of the confusion comes in.

Salvation happens in real-time. From our point of view, we repent and believe.
In reality, the Spirit has quickened our dead Spirit to life.
2tim1:9
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

We know salvation is a great mercy. We all would have gone into second death aart from such a mercy.
Trust our Perfect, Holy, God ,to save all He has purposed to save. We are told it is a Great multitude who in and of themselves would never have come to God.
No matter how people view it, the number of the elect are fixed and certain from the Divine side. We do not know who, so we preach to all.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Calvinism makes sense to me because of real world observations…

 

[GodsGrace]

Calvinism makes sense to me because of real world observations…

You're allowed.
But don't you think a person should at least know what calvinism teaches?
Maybe they should stop fighting someone that tells them what it is by replying that it is not.
Maybe they should explain what they think it is, or at the very least, which parts of calvinism they ascribe to?

I mean, you know I know Catholic doctrine.
But do I call myself a Catholic?
No.
Because I don't agree with it.

Some here like to be anti-arminians (whatever that is, but the non-calvinist get bunched up together).
But, they won't admit to calvinist doctrine either...

Why do you think that is?

 

[GodsGrace]

Calvinism makes sense to me because of real world observations…

I forgot to ask you what those real-world observations are.

 

[GodsGrace]

One of the main problems with the anti-Calvinist/pro-free will argument, as I see it, is that every unsaved person is a slave to sin, the flesh, and the devil (Rom 6:17, 20; 7:5, 18, 25; 8:8; 2 Cor 4:4; etc.). They prefer the darkness to the light, and evil over good (John 3:19-20); "no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside" (Rom 3:11-12, ESV). It seems that absolutely no one can choose salvation, in the least because they simply don't want to.

We are born depraved.
Every christian agrees.
But where is it stated that man is unable to seek God?

Take a look.

What Does the Bible Say About Seeking God?

Bible verses about Seeking God

www.openbible.info

As such, in order for anyone to "choose" salvation, God must first do a work upon the heart by the Holy Spirit. And, yet, we know that most people will not be saved, including many who hear the gospel. So, it strongly appears then, that God, according to the non-Calvinist, is choosing in real-time who gets saved and who doesn't. How is that ultimately any different than if he chose those who would be saved before the beginning of the world?

God never chooses who will be saved...not in any time.
Not before the world began and not in real time.

I've said this before and I think to you - what is it about this that is not understandable?
God give enough grace - mercy - to everyone on earth to make them be enabled to be aware of God and choose God for salvation IF THEY SO WILL. Not everyone will choose to be saved for various reasons.

If God does the choosing many verses of Paul's make no sense.
Paul states that faith comes by hearing the word of God - he doesn't say that God will decide for you.
In many verse it says that IF we believe in Jesus we WILL be saved. IF is conditional - it's conditioned on whether or not we want to do something.

God FOREKNEW who would be saved, Romans 8:28...
He didn't PICK who would be saved and who would be lost.
Could you explain to me how that's justice?
How would a just God do that?
Shouldn't a just God give to EVERY single person the same opportunity to be saved?

And when the bible speaks of CHOOSING, doesn't this imply free will?

 

[Robert Pate]

We are born depraved.
Every christian agrees.
But where is it stated that man is unable to seek God?

Take a look.

What Does the Bible Say About Seeking God?

Bible verses about Seeking God

www.openbible.info

God never chooses who will be saved...not in any time.
Not before the world began and not in real time.

I've said this before and I think to you - what is it about this that is not understandable?
God give enough grace - mercy - to everyone on earth to make them be enabled to be aware of God and choose God for salvation IF THEY SO WILL. Not everyone will choose to be saved for various reasons.

If God does the choosing many verses of Paul's make no sense.
Paul states that faith comes by hearing the word of God - he doesn't say that God will decide for you.
In many verse it says that IF we believe in Jesus we WILL be saved. IF is conditional - it's conditioned on whether or not we want to do something.

God FOREKNEW who would be saved, Romans 8:28...
He didn't PICK who would be saved and who would be lost.
Could you explain to me how that's justice?
How would a just God do that?
Shouldn't a just God give to EVERY single person the same opportunity to be saved?

And when the bible speaks of CHOOSING, doesn't this imply free will?

You ask a lot of good questions. If God is not just, how can we trust him. Is it possible to have saving faith in a God that is unjust? I don't think so.

 

[GodsGrace]

You ask a lot of good questions. If God is not just, how can we trust him. Is it possible to have saving faith in a God that is unjust? I don't think so.

Amen to that!
Paul states in 2 Tim 2:13 that God remains faithful to Himself.
This means that whatever God does, He must do within His nature...
He cannot do something that is against His nature.

The bible teaches us that God is a loving, merciful and just God.
If God does not show love, mercy and justice, How is He remaining faithful to Himself?
He's NOT. And so we could not trust Him.

It would be a sad day when we cannot trust God to be just on our judgment day or even in our everyday life.

Could you imagine going through life not knowing how you will fare because God never made known to mankind what His rules are for salvation?!

I really fail to understand how anyone sees this God in scripture.
I credit it all to careful and slow indoctrination.

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvinism makes sense to me because of real world observations…

We are born depraved.
Every christian agrees.
But where is it stated that man is unable to seek God?

Take a look.

What Does the Bible Say About Seeking God?

Bible verses about Seeking God

www.openbible.info

God never chooses who will be saved...not in any time.
Not before the world began and not in real time.

I've said this before and I think to you - what is it about this that is not understandable?
God give enough grace - mercy - to everyone on earth to make them be enabled to be aware of God and choose God for salvation IF THEY SO WILL. Not everyone will choose to be saved for various reasons.

If God does the choosing many verses of Paul's make no sense.
Paul states that faith comes by hearing the word of God - he doesn't say that God will decide for you.
In many verse it says that IF we believe in Jesus we WILL be saved. IF is conditional - it's conditioned on whether or not we want to do something.

God FOREKNEW who would be saved, Romans 8:28...
He didn't PICK who would be saved and who would be lost.
Could you explain to me how that's justice?
How would a just God do that?
Shouldn't a just God give to EVERY single person the same opportunity to be saved?

And when the bible speaks of CHOOSING, doesn't this imply free will?

We are born depraved.
Every christian agrees.
But where is it stated that man is unable to seek God?

Take a look.

What Does the Bible Say About Seeking God?

Bible verses about Seeking God

www.openbible.info

God never chooses who will be saved...not in any time.
Not before the world began and not in real time.

I've said this before and I think to you - what is it about this that is not understandable?
God give enough grace - mercy - to everyone on earth to make them be enabled to be aware of God and choose God for salvation IF THEY SO WILL. Not everyone will choose to be saved for various reasons.

If God does the choosing many verses of Paul's make no sense.
Paul states that faith comes by hearing the word of God - he doesn't say that God will decide for you.
In many verse it says that IF we believe in Jesus we WILL be saved. IF is conditional - it's conditioned on whether or not we want to do something.

God FOREKNEW who would be saved, Romans 8:28...
He didn't PICK who would be saved and who would be lost.
Could you explain to me how that's justice?
How would a just God do that?
Shouldn't a just God give to EVERY single person the same opportunity to be saved?

And when the bible speaks of CHOOSING, doesn't this imply free will?

 

[Iconoclast]

@ Wondering

I want you to explain your version of events now. If you do not mind I will post your posted ideas, then question it.
W...you say this
God never chooses who will be saved...not in any time.

W...you say this
1]Does God choose anything ? if so, what?

2] God sends Jesus to die on the cross.

Does He do anything else?

3] Here is a dead sinner....what happens?
How does the the sinner come to life?

Then you say
[Not before the world began and not in real time.]

What does this verse mean? You said not before the world began, so what is 2 tim1:9 saying exactly?
9 Who hath saved us, [w....in what way?]

and called us [who did God call? you say He calls no one!]

with an holy calling, [A holy calling] For who?

not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, [what purpose]?


which was given us ] [who is the us in your theology]

in Christ Jesus [who is IN CHRIST jESUS]?

before the world began, [WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN?]

 

[Christ_empowered]

Billy graham. I live in the Bible Belt. The man was a living legend. After hearing his rather impressive sermons…

How many were saved stayed in the faith were changed by Jesus and left this world in Christ?

In terms of just numbers probably a whole lot. Percentage? Probably tiny. Think about it…

 

[Iconoclast]

wondering
God FOREKNEW who would be saved, Romans 8:28...
He didn't PICK who would be saved and who would be lost.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY....foreknew?

How did He foreknow?

Is God an interested onlooker?

He does not do anything, just waits?

Those who never hear the gospel, explain what happens to them please?

Is God just in your theology? How so? How is justice correct in your scheme?

You say God is not fair if He chooses? So...you are saying the dead sinner chooses.
I saw that list of verses you posted saying seek....most all of them were to believers seeking God in prayer.

 

[Robert Pate]

Amen to that!
Paul states in 2 Tim 2:13 that God remains faithful to Himself.
This means that whatever God does, He must do within His nature...
He cannot do something that is against His nature.

The bible teaches us that God is a loving, merciful and just God.
If God does not show love, mercy and justice, How is He remaining faithful to Himself?
He's NOT. And so we could not trust Him.

It would be a sad day when we cannot trust God to be just on our judgment day or even in our everyday life.

Could you imagine going through life not knowing how you will fare because God never made known to mankind what His rules are for salvation?!

I really fail to understand how anyone sees this God in scripture.
I credit it all to careful and slow indoctrination.

I would not want to go to heaven if the God of Calvinism is there. The God of Calvinism is divisive and unjust, who can trust him? The God of the Bible is not the God of Calvinism. It is easy to have faith in the God of the Bible, not so with the Calvinist God.

 

[Iconoclast]

I would not want to go to heaven if the God of Calvinism is there.

Well then, prepare to enjoy the second death...because He is there.

The God of Calvinism is divisive and unjust, who can trust him?

Those who understand scripture trust him.

The God of the Bible is not the God of Calvinism.

You are going to be surprised.

It is easy to have faith in the God of the Bible, not so with the Calvinist God.

 

[Iconoclast]

wondering
look slowly at post 30 and 32 respond line by line

 

[GodsGrace]

@ Wondering

I want you to explain your version of events now. If you do not mind I will post your posted ideas, then question it.
W...you say this
God never chooses who will be saved...not in any time.

Let me be more clear.
God DOES choose who will be saved, but based ON SOMETHING.
God FOREKNEW who would desire to be saved from the beginning of time because for God there is no time.
It's just one long line with no breaks. It's as if He's on a mountain and looking down into the valley and He sees everything happening all at once. It's a little like He could hear everyone praying all at the same time.
He truly is sovereign and mighty and powerful.
However, unlike in the reformed faith that does not know why God picked some and not others, we can know HOW to be picked by God. By believing on the name of Jesus, His Son.

Acts 16:31 The jailor was told to believe on the name of Jesus and he would be saved.
Romans tells us that we come to faith by hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17
and
Hebrews 11:6
without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
And Hebrews 11:6 even confirms that man is ABLE to seek God...something calvinism will not admit.
Many verses about this too BTW.

W...you say this
1]Does God choose anything ? if so, what?

2] God sends Jesus to die on the cross.

Does He do anything else?

3] Here is a dead sinner....what happens?
How does the the sinner come to life?

I believe that God can choose anything He wants to, but He has given us a plan to save ourselves. This plan does not change and was from the beginning.
God probably choses Judas, Pharaoh, Mary.
God definitely caused the circumstances that were going to cause the death of Jesus.
God does have rules though. If God didn't, there would be chaos in the world. The fact that we can RELY on God is what causes us to trust Him and believe what He tells us in His book, the bible.

A sinner is dead spiritually, but he is not brain dead !
He can still hear and think and come to decisions. Choosing Christianity is just another decision that one makes.
God gives grace to everyone because He wishes that none should perish. 1 Timothy 2:4 God wishes that all men should come to the knowledge of Him. God loves the world, why wouldn't He? Do we create a garden and then stamp it to death? No. We water it and take care of it - like God does to us, His creation. He prepared a whole world for us in the Garden because God loves His best creation.
Some call this prevenient grace. Just enough to let us take notice, and then it's up to each individual to accept God's invitation to salvation or to reject it. God leaves that decision to us. This DOES NOT mean that we save ourselves as I've heard ad infinitum. We cannot save ourselves - only God can save us.

Acts 17:30
"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
Paul preached repentance and belief. Apparently Paul believed every person could come to believe...
Acts 20:21
21solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jesus also believed person could come to Him:
John 5:40
And you will not COME TO ME, that you may have life.

Then you say
[Not before the world began and not in real time.]

I wasn't referring really to TIME, but that God does not choose, not ever.
He gives to us the ABILITY for us to choose HIM.
With prevenient grace.
Sorry for the confusion...

What does this verse mean? You said not before the world began, so what is 2 tim1:9 saying exactly?
9 Who hath saved us, [w....in what way?]

2 Timothy 1:9 NASB
8Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
9who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
10but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

God has saved us, but He lets us know how.
God has called Paul and Timothy with a holy calling, a calling is something that we are called TO DO,
they were called to preach. And this calling is HOLY - set apart to do God's work.
Not for their works because they deserved this callinig, but because it served God's purpose.
God calls us to service, this is determined, not our salvation but our calling and purpose.
The grace we need for our purpose was granted through Jesus from all eternity.

and called us [who did God call? you say He calls no one!]

I don't think I EVER said God calls no one!
He calls EVERYONE 2 Tim 2:4
Not everyone replies with a Yes.

with an holy calling, [A holy calling] For who?

not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, [what purpose]?


which was given us ] [who is the us in your theology]

in Christ Jesus [who is IN CHRIST jESUS]?

before the world began, [WHAT HAPPENED BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN?]

I think I answered all these questions up above where I posted the verse in Timothy.

(nice to talk when we're calm!)

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering
God FOREKNEW who would be saved, Romans 8:28...
He didn't PICK who would be saved and who would be lost.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY....foreknew?

Everyone believes God is sovereign and knows everything.
God always knew everything that would happen.
But KNOWING something will happen is different than CAUSING something to happen.
God ALWAYS KNEW who would want to be saved and who would not.
From the beginning of time.

How did He foreknow?

Is God an interested onlooker?

Because He's God!
These questions seem silly to me Iconoclast...

He does not do anything, just waits?

God is a creator.
He is always doing something.
God upholds the universe.
If He stopped upholding the universe, it would just end.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Those who never hear the gospel, explain what happens to them please?

Those who never hear the gospel are saved or not saved according to
Romans 1:19-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Cornelius was a God-fearing man and had never heard the gospel.
God is everywhere. Man has no excuse because God has always revealed Himself, even before there was a gospel - which is only 2,000 years ago, but man existed for thousands of years before this.

Is God just in your theology? How so? How is justice correct in your scheme?

You say God is not fair if He chooses? So...you are saying the dead sinner chooses.
I saw that list of verses you posted saying seek....most all of them were to believers seeking God in prayer.

You say ALMOST all of them....I didn't have time to pick them out.
If only 1 or 2 said man can seek God, then it means man CAN seek God.
Otherwise the bible would be lying and would be unreliable.

As to a just God...you know this is something that really bothers me.
YES, God is just in unreformed theology.

Here's why:
Because God gives to EVERY MAN the same opportunity to be saved.
This is just.
In reformed theology God picks some and passes others by, thus not giving them THE SAME OPPORTUNITY to be saved. This is unjust.

If you don't see it, I can explain other ways - but it's really simple.
JUSTICE means to give to each man what HE DESERVES.
By God choosing - is God giving to each man what he deserves?
NO.

To some sinners He gives heaven.
And to some sinners He gives hell.
BASED ON NOTHING that we can know.
How is that justice??
God did not give to each man what each man deserved.

As every other denominations sees it:
God offers Himself - now through Jesus -
If we say yes, we are saved. We "deserve" salvation because we believe in Jesus, His Son.
If we say no, we are not saved, but it is the person that turned down the opportunity, so God is just in not saving that person.

That's the best I can do.

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering
look slowly at post 30 and 32 respond line by line

I believe I did.

 

[Iconoclast]

Everyone believes God is sovereign and knows everything.
God always knew everything that would happen.
But KNOWING something will happen is different than CAUSING something to happen.
God ALWAYS KNEW who would want to be saved and who would not.
From the beginning of time.


Because He's God!
These questions seem silly to me Iconoclast...


God is a creator.
He is always doing something.
God upholds the universe.
If He stopped upholding the universe, it would just end.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.


Those who never hear the gospel are saved or not saved according to
Romans 1:19-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Cornelius was a God-fearing man and had never heard the gospel.
God is everywhere. Man has no excuse because God has always revealed Himself, even before there was a gospel - which is only 2,000 years ago, but man existed for thousands of years before this.


You say ALMOST all of them....I didn't have time to pick them out.
If only 1 or 2 said man can seek God, then it means man CAN seek God.
Otherwise the bible would be lying and would be unreliable.

As to a just God...you know this is something that really bothers me.
YES, God is just in unreformed theology.

Here's why:
Because God gives to EVERY MAN the same opportunity to be saved.
This is just.
In reformed theology God picks some and passes others by, thus not giving them THE SAME OPPORTUNITY to be saved. This is unjust.

If you don't see it, I can explain other ways - but it's really simple.
JUSTICE means to give to each man what HE DESERVES.
By God choosing - is God giving to each man what he deserves?
NO.

To some sinners He gives heaven.
And to some sinners He gives hell.
BASED ON NOTHING that we can know.
How is that justice??
God did not give to each man what each man deserved.

As every other denominations sees it:
God offers Himself - now through Jesus -
If we say yes, we are saved. We "deserve" salvation because we believe in Jesus, His Son.
If we say no, we are not saved, but it is the person that turned down the opportunity, so God is just in not saving that person.

That's the best I can do.

Thanks for responding.....W...do not get mad, but maybe I am not making it clear either you are not understanding me, or not getting it. Foreknowledge of persons, does not equal...omniscience.
Of course God is omniscient...that is not in view. I can go over this post line by line if you want me to.
The scenerio you suggest has more holes than a piece of swiss cheese.
God has never given every person the same chance, then or now.
The light descibed in Rom.1 is not enough to save,,,,,I will go line by line if you want, let me know

I believe I did.

I will show where you did, and I will show or react to error ....ie, a couple of days ago I think you posted that Christians worshipped the same God as a JW??? We do not.

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe I did.

Thanks for responding as best you can.