Is Calvinism Self Defeating?

[Iconoclast]

emptation of the devil through the serpent. 8 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event, i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity, but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…” Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for responding.....W...do not get mad, but maybe I am not making it clear either you are not understanding me, or not getting it. Foreknowledge of persons, does not equal...omniscience.

I don't get mad. I'm trying to figure out what you think I'm not understanding but all I get is flack - not from you.
What do you mean that foreknowledge of persons does not equal omniscience?
Omniscience means to know everything. God has perfect knowledge about everything since He created it!
I'm talking about FOREKNOWLEDGE....
Knowing something before it happens.
This is different.
Maybe this is the problem, we use the same words but they mean something different to each "side".

Of course God is omniscient...that is not in view. I can go over this post line by line if you want me to.

Of course you should go over it line by line, when you have the time.
It took me some time to post all that stuff - if you do the same I'll understand you better.

The scenerio you suggest has more holes than a piece of swiss cheese.

Please tell me why.
What I wrote is what is believed by mainline Christianity.

God has never given every person the same chance, then or now.

Well, THIS would be why the God of calvinism is not a just God.
The bible teaches that God is NOT a respecter of persons...this means that He treats everyone the same.
Where does it state in the NT that God does NOT give everyone the same chance?
Acts 10:34-35
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
Romans 2:11
...for God shows no partiality.
1 Peter 1:17
And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds,

Look at what scripture says:
1. God shows no partiality but treats each person the same.
2. The man who does what is right and fears Him is welcome to Him.
3. God, as Father, judges impartially according to each one's deeds.

How could you not accept what is plainly written?

The light descibed in Rom.1 is not enough to save,,,,,I will go line by line if you want, let me know

I will show where you did, and I will show or react to error ....ie, a couple of days ago I think you posted that Christians worshipped the same God as a JW??? We do not.

Romans 1:19 states that each man has no excuse because God has made Himself known to all.
That means that there is enough light.

Yes, please show me where I'm wrong and react to error.
Thanks.

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't get mad. I'm trying to figure out what you think I'm not understanding but all I get is flack - not from you.

wondering
HelloW,
I am glad we are communicating at a higher and more edifying level than in our first exchanges.
I am not here to hurt but to help. When things get hostile and escalate I can do that more readily than calming down and offering my verses. I have been doing this for a while and should know better by now, but there are times I drift.
I do not have thin skin like many I see who come on message boards and want to spew out venom, then when you answer them directly, they run to a moderator to report and censor the person.
I had recently posted to a brother along this line.
Any dead fish can float down the stream. I prefer people who are animated and engaged in reference to scripture...then dead and useless. Just be honest.

What do you mean that foreknowledge of persons does not equal omniscience?
Omniscience means to know everything. God has perfect knowledge about everything since He created it!

Agreed,,,all things

I'm talking about FOREKNOWLEDGE....
Knowing something before it happens.
This is different.
Maybe this is the problem, we use the same words but they mean something different to each "side".

Yes...here is a difference.If you look back I have said this like a broken record.
here maybe this will help you;

The Foreknowledge of God by A.W. Pink | Titus Institute

titusinstitute.com

Now the word "foreknowledge" as it is used in the New Testament is less ambiguous than in its simple form "to know." If every passage in which it occurs is carefully studied, it will be discovered that it is a moot point whether it ever has reference to the mere perception of events which are yet to take place.

The fact is that "foreknowledge" is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions;
instead, it always has reference to persons.

It is persons God is said to "foreknow," not the actions of those persons.


In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.

The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, "Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse it will be seen that the apostle was not there speaking of God’s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Person crucified: "Him (Christ) being delivered by," etc.

The second occurrence is in Romans 8;29,30. "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image, of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called," etc. Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts but the persons themselves, which is here in view.

 

[Robert Pate]

wondering
HelloW,
I am glad we are communicating at a higher and more edifying level than in our first exchanges.
I am not here to hurt but to help. When things get hostile and escalate I can do that more readily than calming down and offering my verses. I have been doing this for a while and should know better by now, but there are times I drift.
I do not have thin skin like many I see who come on message boards and want to spew out venom, then when you answer them directly, they run to a moderator to report and censor the person.
I had recently posted to a brother along this line.
Any dead fish can float down the stream. I prefer people who are animated and engaged in reference to scripture...then dead and useless. Just be honest.

Agreed,,,all things

Yes...here is a difference.If you look back I have said this like a broken record.
here maybe this will help you;

The Foreknowledge of God by A.W. Pink | Titus Institute

titusinstitute.com

Now the word "foreknowledge" as it is used in the New Testament is less ambiguous than in its simple form "to know." If every passage in which it occurs is carefully studied, it will be discovered that it is a moot point whether it ever has reference to the mere perception of events which are yet to take place.

The fact is that "foreknowledge" is never used in Scripture in connection with events or actions;
instead, it always has reference to persons.

It is persons God is said to "foreknow," not the actions of those persons.


In proof of this we shall now quote each passage where this expression is found.

The first occurrence is in Acts 2:23. There we read, "Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." If careful attention is paid to the wording of this verse it will be seen that the apostle was not there speaking of God’s foreknowledge of the act of the crucifixion, but of the Person crucified: "Him (Christ) being delivered by," etc.

The second occurrence is in Romans 8;29,30. "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image, of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called," etc. Weigh well the pronoun that is used here. It is not what He did foreknow, but whom He did. It is not the surrendering of their wills nor the believing of their hearts but the persons themselves, which is here in view.

God is no respecter of persons, Acts 10:34. You want to believe that he is, because it fits with your Calvinist religion.

God foreknew that Jesus would be the savior of the whole world. All that trust in Christ as their savior have been predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.

 

[GodsGrace]

God is no respecter of persons, Acts 10:34. You want to believe that he is, because it fits with your Calvinist religion.

God foreknew that Jesus would be the savior of the whole world. All that trust in Christ as their savior have been predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.

You know RP,
I come to realize that Iconoclast believes this!
He sees a difference between the word PREDESTINE and the word ORDAIN.

In his view PREDESTINE is action by God directed toward men,
and ORDAIN is action by God directed toward events.

I found this to be very interesting and I look forward to his reply to your post above.

Here's my post to him so you could confirm what I've stated:
post 277

Predestination

I know. This is a tough nut to crack. We're very set in our ways. Re the choosing of the pizza. Don't you believe that God predestined Everything as the confession states? Wouldn't that include your pizza topping? God has "ordained " whatsoever comes to pass. you confuse the terms and jump...

christianforums.net

 

[Iconoclast]

God is no respecter of persons, Acts 10:34. You want to believe that he is, because it fits with your Calvinist religion.

God foreknew that Jesus would be the savior of the whole world. All that trust in Christ as their savior have been predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son.

Another verse you cannot explain, and the cart before the horse idea.
What do you mean by God foreknew? Explain how that takes place?

 

[GodsGrace]

Another verse you cannot explain, and the cart before the horse idea.
What do you mean by God foreknew? Explain how that takes place?

Wait a minute I.
YOU said that predestination refers to men and it specifically refers (among other things) that men are PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of the Son.

Are you changing?
I thought we had agreed on this.

 

[JLB]

All false religions substitute works and obedience for faith.

Actually scripture teaches us that the full name for a living, active faith is the obedience of faith.


But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26


Faith without the corresponding action or “work” of obedience is dead, inactive or dormant, because it is incomplete.

Just as a body without a spirit is dead, and therefore inactive and unable to function, because it is incomplete.



Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:21-22


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


This is why we are called to obey the Gospel.


But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17





JLB

 

[Iconoclast]

Wait a minute I.
YOU said that predestination refers to men and it specifically refers (among other things) that men are PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of the Son.

Are you changing?
I thought we had agreed on this.

Nothing changed

 

[GodsGrace]

Nothing changed

No Iconoclast...
PLEASE read what I wrote....

Or just answer this question:

DECREE means that God before the beginning, had already decided all that was to happen, take place, events in history, etc.

PREDESTINE means that God predestined the person He elects (the saved) to be conformed to the image of His Son.


Is that what you believe?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No Iconoclast...
PLEASE read what I wrote....

Or just answer this question:

DECREE means that God before the beginning, had already decided all that was to happen, take place, events in history, etc.

PREDESTINE means that God predestined the person He elects (the saved) to be conformed to the image of His Son.


Is that what you believe?

It ought to be said that if one believes God predestined the person he elects for Heaven then he predestines others for hell. There is no accepting one without the other. In addition, Saying "predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son" has the problem that if a person is NOT conformed to the image of his son, it looks like they were not so predestined. We have then a measure by which to see if they are among the Elect. Are they like Jesus? If not, then it follows that they are not so predestined.

 

[Robert Pate]

Another verse you cannot explain, and the cart before the horse idea.
What do you mean by God foreknew? Explain how that takes place?

God foreknew that Jesus would be the savior of the world and those that trust in Jesus are predestinated to be conformed to his image, Romans 8:29.