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Predestination

I know.
This is a tough nut to crack.
We're very set in our ways.

Re the choosing of the pizza.
Don't you believe that God predestined Everything as the confession states?
Wouldn't that include your pizza topping?
God has "ordained " whatsoever comes to pass. you confuse the terms and jump from a biblical usage, to a secular usage.
To say God ordained my pizza topping would be correct, and would include my choice as a free moral agent to have half mushroom, half extra cheese.
To say it was predestined would be I want to order that exact pizza, but angelic beings come and force me to order pepperoni because of a fatalistic determinism, that is not the same as God's eternal purpose being providentially unfolded. God in love works all things together for the good of His children, it is not an impersonal determinism as Muslims believe. a loving God loves all who are IN Christ. to be outside of Christ is to remain outside of His love and under His wrath.
 
God has "ordained " whatsoever comes to pass. you confuse the terms and jump from a biblical usage, to a secular usage.
To say God ordained my pizza topping would be correct, and would include my choice as a free moral agent to have half mushroom, half extra cheese.
To say it was predestined would be I want to order that exact pizza, but angelic beings come and force me to order pepperoni because of a fatalistic determinism, that is not the same as God's eternal purpose being providentially unfolded. God in love works all things together for the good of His children, it is not an impersonal determinism as Muslims believe. a loving God loves all who are IN Christ. to be outside of Christ is to remain outside of His love and under His wrath.
Pastor has said human will versus Gods will in like manner
 
God has "ordained " whatsoever comes to pass. you confuse the terms and jump from a biblical usage, to a secular usage.
To say God ordained my pizza topping would be correct, and would include my choice as a free moral agent to have half mushroom, half extra cheese.
To say it was predestined would be I want to order that exact pizza, but angelic beings come and force me to order pepperoni because of a fatalistic determinism, that is not the same as God's eternal purpose being providentially unfolded. God in love works all things together for the good of His children, it is not an impersonal determinism as Muslims believe. a loving God loves all who are IN Christ. to be outside of Christ is to remain outside of His love and under His wrath.
What does ordained and predestined mean exactly.
 
What does ordained and predestined mean exactly.
Simple answer-ordained
Whatsoever comes to pass,has been ordained to come to pass, or it would never happen. Not one molecule moves without it's movement being ordained by God.
predestined is used of the elect being predestined to be conformed to the Image of the Son. elct men being restored image bearers, 1 cor 15;
5 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
 
Pray is a good work, ordained for us as a means of grace to enable us to persevere in the faith.
CL... I do believe in election and predestination but it is not a fatalistic scheme.
The living God has set out a path for our sanctification as well as our glorification.
We go through trials and tribulations as a part of that path. It is not just like the Arminian osas!
1689 conf.

Chapter 17: Of The Perseverance of the Saints​

1._____ Those whom God hath accepted in the beloved,
effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit,
and given the precious faith of his elect unto,
can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace,
but shall certainly persevere therein to the end,
and be eternally saved,
seeing the gifts and callings of God are without repentance,
whence he still begets and nourisheth in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality;
and though many storms and floods arise and beat against them,
yet they shall never be able to take them off that foundation and rock which by faith they are fastened upon;
notwithstanding, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan,

the sensible sight of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them,
yet he is still the same,
and they shall be sure to be kept by the power of God unto salvation,
where they shall enjoy their purchased possession,
they being engraven upon the palm of his hands, and their names having been written in the book of life from all eternity.
( John 10:28, 29; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19; Psalms 89:31, 32; 1 Corinthians 11:32; Malachi 3:6 )
2._____ This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father, upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and union with him, the oath of God, the abiding of his Spirit, and the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace; from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.
( Romans 8:30 Romans 9:11, 16; Romans 5:9, 10; John 14:19; Hebrews 6:17, 18; 1 John 3:9; Jeremiah 32:40 )

3._____ And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.
( Matthew 26:70, 72, 74; Isaiah 64:5, 9; Ephesians 4:30; Psalms 51:10, 12; Psalms 32:3, 4; 2 Samuel 12:14; Luke 22:32, 61, 62 )

Calvin says that faith is an absolute non-factor in predestination.
That is clear.

"Second, faith is not the cause of God’s election. God does not foresee ahead of time that we will believe and then choose us on that basis. “To make faith the cause of election is altogether absurd and utterly at variance with the words of the apostle [Paul]” (Calvin’s Calvinism, 45)."

You have not answered if you agree or not ?
If there is some reason you would rather not say please indicate so, so I do not have to waste time repeating the question .

Thank You .
 
Calvin says that faith is an absolute non-factor in predestination.
That is clear.

"Second, faith is not the cause of God’s election. God does not foresee ahead of time that we will believe and then choose us on that basis. “To make faith the cause of election is altogether absurd and utterly at variance with the words of the apostle [Paul]” (Calvin’s Calvinism, 45)."

You have not answered if you agree or not ?
If there is some reason you would rather not say please indicate so, so I do not have to waste time repeating the question .

Thank You .
Cl,
It might take time, but I will never draw back from a question.
I was busy getting some auto parts and grocery.Tried to get into a few conversations but they did not progress to gospel opportunity today.
Over all the quote I can agree with in that what is predestined as far as our sanctification is God directly working in us.
We are called to the obedience of faith ,yes
But the action on God's part is certain, not a faith issue in my judgment.
 
Pretty sure you do not understand the matter at hand.
lol
Just the opposite
Skandelon said:
:laugh:

I was going to listen to it until you said that!!!
;)
Skan,

i was working in a warehouse going through college when i first heard this sermon....it starts out slow...by the title I was thinking this seems odd....it has been one of the most stunning messages i have ever heard....and it taught me that everything in scripture has a divine purpose....

Give it a good listen...let me know what you think....I listened to it a few times each year since, and still learn from it.
How he ties it back to the cross, is masterful...I believe God given wisdom
if several in here get to listen ..we could do a thread on it,,,it speaks to many areas of our life and understanding.



 
lol
Just the opposite
Skandelon said:

Skan,

i was working in a warehouse going through college when i first heard this sermon....it starts out slow...by the title I was thinking this seems odd....it has been one of the most stunning messages i have ever heard....and it taught me that everything in scripture has a divine purpose....

Give it a good listen...let me know what you think....I listened to it a few times each year since, and still learn from it.
How he ties it back to the cross, is masterful...I believe God given wisdom
if several in here get to listen ..we could do a thread on it,,,it speaks to many areas of our life and understanding.



Not interested in Skan.
 
Jethro,
Did you see the following?


Please check it out.
It's ALL FOR YOU!
I did.
Why does Catholic theology have to be so complicated and drawn out?! It's too overthought for me. I like the simplicity of the gospel I have learned over the years. I'm blessed and edified by short and concise truths. I'm turned off by long, overthought and complicated theologies.

No offense to anyone. Thank you, Mungo, for taking the time and effort to post.
 
Simple answer-ordained
Whatsoever comes to pass,has been ordained to come to pass, or it would never happen. Not one molecule moves without it's movement being ordained by God.
predestined is used of the elect being predestined to be conformed to the Image of the Son. elct men being restored image bearers, 1 cor 15;
5 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
I don't know what 1 Cor 15 has to do with your explanation of ordain and predestine.

Here's what you wrote:

Whatsoever comes to pass,has been ordained to come to pass, or it would never happen. Not one molecule moves without it's movement being ordained by God.
predestined is used of the elect being predestined to be conformed to the Image of the Son.


OK, so ORDAINED means what has been ordained to come to pass (or it would never happen).
And, you say, predestined is used of the elect being conformed to the image of the Son.


I agree 100% with what predestine means in the NT.
However, ordained means exactly the same thing.
If God had not ordained something, then it would never happen.

I'm not getting the terms mixed up between the biblical and the secular.
Predestine means the same.

IOW, you can't make up your own definition of words.
Here's how The Confession described the word ORDAIN:



God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;a yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,
Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter III
Paragraph 1


It states that God ORDAINED whatsoever comes to pass....
this is the same as saying that God predestined everything that will happen.

So PREDESTINE could apply only to men...OK
BUT ORDAIN means exactly the same as predestine.
If God ORDAINS something to happen - it most surely will.

So you can't take one word and let it be the reason we don't understand each other.
When I say God predestined, I mean ordained. It's the same!

OR

No matter how you want to use words:

GOD ORDAINED EVERYTHING.
GOD PREDEESTINED ALL MEN.

No matter how you turn it, GOD ORDAINED AND PREDESTINED EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE before the beginning of time.

So,, in affect, God ordered everything that was to happen and ordered everyone to either heaven or hell according to the good pleasure of His will.

No matter what words one wishes to use, it's God that is the first cause of everything.
 
I did.
Why does Catholic theology have to be so complicated and drawn out?! It's too overthought for me. I like the simplicity of the gospel I have learned over the years. I'm blessed and edified by short and concise truths. I'm turned off by long, overthought and complicated theologies.

No offense to anyone. Thank you, Mungo, for taking the time and effort to post.
Mungo will never see this.
But you should speak to him when you want to know the truth about it.
I'm more simple, like you, but he does get into the detail.
 
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