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Bible Study Is Death A Sin? - Yes!

th1b.taylor said:
Tim,
I hope you have a good life but I tire of the childish behavior. Repeatedly, several of us have given you the spiritual references and you are either not reading them, are quenching the Spirit or you do not believe the basic truth of Hermeneutics that no scripture, group of scripture nor collection of scripture can be fully and correctly without the light of all scripture shining on it/them. Praying for you.
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Bill, I hope you understand why I am posting a warning to you on this thread. I need to let Tim and the others know that I don't allow your characterization of a Brother as childless, grieving the Spirit, and not interpreting the Scripture correctly. You simply cannot post your personal feelings. Tim is your Brother in Christ. Jesus, in the presence of the Holy Spirit lives in him. What you say to Tim, you are saying to Jesus Who lives in him. You are a good friend of mine and fellow warrior, please be careful in the future how you answer, please, you dried out old corn cob.
 
TimothyW said:
A person can not be born again if they have died. Only a living person can repent of their sins and turn to God for forgiveness. The question "What died in us that needs to be born again?" is not a logical question, nor is a Biblical question. A person does not have to be dead in order to be born again, and being dead would actually prevent a person from being born again.

I asked you many times, and very politely too, to show me where the Bible says that Adam died on the day of his sin, and you haven't done that. I think it is time for all of us to admit that Adam did not die that day, he died later, when he was 930 years old.

But if you are sure that something died in Adam that day, simply show me the scripture support for this and I will believe you. Please forgive my skepticism on this, I insist on having answers from the Bible. Anybody can claim Anything, but the grass withers and the flowers fade. Only the Word of our God will stand forever.
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What died in Adam the day he ate of the forbidden fruit was that Spiritual connection/fellowship he had with God. God cast Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden for now Adam acquired a carnal mind and became an enmity against God losing that Spiritual relationship he had with God in the beginning until sin was found in him, just as sin is found in all of us, and God cast Adam out being that Adam was now Spiritually dead to God and became enmity against Him. This is why we have to be Spiritually born again as explained in the scriptures below for to be carnally minded is death (separating from Gods Spirit) and the flesh can not please God nor is it obedient to God.


John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
 
TimothyW said:
I believe that God resurrects the dead. I believe that when Jesus returns, He will resurrect the dead. Those who have eternal life will then live forever and those who do not have eternal life will not live forever. I'm sorry that doesn't answer your question, but I can't say more than the Bible says. I don't have any special knowledge that isn't written in the Bible. You could investigate the Hebrew term that is translated soul, nepesh. Also check out the Greek term pysche.
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What happened to the thief on the cross next to Jesus after her repented. Jesus told him he would be with Him in paradise. What happened to Stephen? Did the Lord receive his spirit? Did he go to sleep? Did he die?
 
Chopper said:
Bill, I hope you understand why I am posting a warning to you on this thread. I need to let Tim and the others know that I don't allow your characterization of a Brother as childless, grieving the Spirit, and not interpreting the Scripture correctly. You simply cannot post your personal feelings. Tim is your Brother in Christ. Jesus, in the presence of the Holy Spirit lives in him. What you say to Tim, you are saying to Jesus Who lives in him. You are a good friend of mine and fellow warrior, please be careful in the future how you answer, please, you dried out old corn cob.
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Thanks Chopper
 
Ricko said:
What happened to the thief on the cross next to Jesus after her repented. Jesus told him he would be with Him in paradise. What happened to Stephen? Did the Lord receive his spirit? Did he go to sleep? Did he die?
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I believe that the thief died on the cross next to Jesus, and I believe that Stephen died when they stoned him to death. I believe that they will be resurrected with us and will live forever in God's Kingdom.
 
TimothyW said:
I'm sorry about your eyes, I didn't know. I hope your operation goes good.

Just a couple of comments, man CAN be made in God's image without being "triune", and God wouldn't have been lying about man being made in God's image. Maybe it just doesn't mean that. You haven't really proven that "made in God's image" really means "made out of three parts". The Bible doesn't specifically say that. Maybe you are right but if you are, you need to firm up the proof on that.

I didn't see why Strongs said "phantom" for image. It just seemed to be thrown into the definition.

I think the resurrection is an important point. If we live forever as spirits, then we don't need to be resurrected in order to have eternal life.
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Timothy, what is the definition of triune, isn't it three in one? There are lots of things in our world that are three in one, and egg is the example that comes to mind first, I know you want Biblical proof so here it is,

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Th 5:23

Bro, phantom is the meaning of the word,

tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.

But look at Strong's conclusion of the usage, a representative figure, that means we are created in the same triune likeness as God, three in one, we can't deny that in our own lives, now can we.

We are taught by Jesus that two or three witness's are sufficient to prove a matter Matt 18:16, De 19:15, 2 Cor 13:1, we have looked at two Gen 1:27 and 1 Th 5:23, according to Jesus that should be enough Biblical proof, to convince you man is a triune being, but we don't need to argue over semantics, an honest evaluation of who we are will show each and every one of us we are comprised of spirit, soul and body, ...it an observable fact that we experience and live with daily.

Do you see it brother?

Blessings
 
Karl said:
Timothy, what is the definition of triune, isn't it three in one? There are lots of things in our world that are three in one, and egg is the example that comes to mind first, I know you want Biblical proof so here it is,

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1Th 5:23

Bro, phantom is the meaning of the word,

tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.

But look at Strong's conclusion of the usage, a representative figure, that means we are created in the same triune likeness as God, three in one, we can't deny that in our own lives, now can we.

We are taught by Jesus that two or three witness's are sufficient to prove a matter Matt 18:16, De 19:15, 2 Cor 13:1, we have looked at two Gen 1:27 and 1 Th 5:23, according to Jesus that should be enough Biblical proof, to convince you man is a triune being, but we don't need to argue over semantics, an honest evaluation of who we are will show each and every one of us we are comprised of spirit, soul and body, ...it an observable fact that we experience and live with daily.

Do you see it brother?

Blessings
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I will admit that it is possible. I still don't think that you have investigated the meaning of the words translated as "soul" enough.
Look at Genesis 2:7
"then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature."
This is a living nepesh, Strong's number 5315. The man became a living soul. It isn't as if God made man from the dust and then gave him a spirit and a soul. God made man and when Adam became alive, Adam became a soul.
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5315.htm

So, then look at all the uses of Nepesh in the Bible in Strongs:
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_5315.htm
Genesis 1:20, 1:21, 1:24, 1:30
Look at how the same word is used for animals.
 
Morning bro,

You're right Timothy, but you have to admit that there is Scriptural proof that man has a spirit 1 Th 5:23 tells us so and you won't believe it unless it's in the Word, ...and there it is, it's not that I'm right, it's for you to see and learn.

The soul is called the seat of our emotions, where our feelings originate, so yes animals and man both have souls, if you have a dog or a cat then you know they can show emotions, ...my cat's emotions range from love, contentment, joy, anger, fear, but, ...animals don't have a spirit, they can't rationalize the way man can, we don't find any animal that has invented something, the have their instincts, but cannot rationalize.

I guess the next point in this discussion is what is the purpose of man's spirit, simply put, it is to guide and direct man's soul, his emotions, notice the order Paul put the three components of man, spirit, soul and body, we are to use our spirit to control our soul and then our soul controls and directs our body, that is the way Adam was created, but how is it today in you and me, it is our body, our five senses that control our soul, the information that we receive through them, you have proved that here in this thread, when a poster said something unkind to you, you received the info through your eyes and your emotions responded in sending a message through the body, your fingers typing a response, revealing how you felt, what your soul was saying about your emotions (and just read many of these threads, it's the same with many who post here), we see pride, anger, disbelief, revenge and on the other side we see joy, thankfulness, love, peace, ...all emotions expressions of how the person is feeling ...so from observation of this very forum is proof that for many their soul is directed and guided by the body, our five senses.

On the other hand, man was created to have his spirit guide and direct his soul 1 Th 5:23 and that would be the emotions the body revealed, ...and his spirit was in communication with God, so actually it is God, through His Holy Spirit, telling our spirit how to direct and guide our soul, and what our the emotions of a Holy Spirit guided spirit in man, love, manifested by joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness and self-control (there it is, control of the body).

But, how many people do you see or know that manifest these emotions of the Holy Spirit on a daily basis, 24/7, only one that I know of, our Lord Jesus Christ, the perfect Man, He lived a perfect life, He was/is our role model as to how we are to live and the story of His Transfiguration is the Scriptural proof that He had lived a perfect sinless life, ...something you or I can't even dare to think or speak of.

It's taken some time, and I thank you for your patience, but there is the proof, man's spirit is dead, it died the day Adam rebelled, it could no longer have communion with God, no longer in direct communication with what God wanted for man, why, because,

You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, and can not look upon vexation. Hab 1:13

man had sinned and God is too Holy to live with sin, just look at how God dealt with man, with a few exceptions, until His Son, the Word, became flesh and dwelt among us, for the most part He was hidden, spoke through intermediaries, wrote on tablets of stone for man to read, ...and that is why Jesus said you and I need to be born again to have communion with God , we need our spirits and souls cleansed by the blood and regenerated so that we can receive info from the Holy Spirit as to how to guide and direct our souls and have communion with God the Father and to be able to worship Him in spirit and Truth.

Blessings
 
Hi Tim, I have looked at this thread only to moderate, but I do have a question. Are you dichotomous in your doctrine? And is Karl trichotomous?
 
TimothyW said:
I believe that the thief died on the cross next to Jesus, and I believe that Stephen died when they stoned him to death. I believe that they will be resurrected with us and will live forever in God's Kingdom.
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Jesus told the thief he would be with in Him in Paradise that day. That was 2000 years ago. Did he meet Jesus in paradise that day?
 
Chopper said:
Hi Tim, I have looked at this thread only to moderate, but I do have a question. Are you dichotomous in your doctrine? And is Karl trichotomous?
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I am Biblical in my doctrine, I believe Karl is too. I don't know whether that means that a man is made up of one part, two parts, three parts, or thousands of parts all working together. I'm leaning towards that last one. I got into this because of the question, "Did Adam die that day or not?" At some point that is not a theological question but a forensics question. Does the Bible say that Adam died the day he ate fruit with his wife? If the Bible doesn't say that Adam died that day, then we have no evidence that he did.
 
Karl said:
Morning bro,

You're right Timothy, but you have to admit that there is Scriptural proof that man has a spirit 1 Th 5:23 tells us so and you won't believe it unless it's in the Word, ...and there it is, it's not that I'm right, it's for you to see and learn.

The soul is called the seat of our emotions, where our feelings originate, so yes animals and man both have souls, if you have a dog or a cat then you know they can show emotions, ...my cat's emotions range from love, contentment, joy, anger, fear, but, ...animals don't have a spirit, they can't rationalize the way man can, we don't find any animal that has invented something, the have their instincts, but cannot rationalize.

I guess the next point in this discussion is what is the purpose of man's spirit, simply put, it is to guide and direct man's soul, his emotions, notice the order Paul put the three components of man, spirit, soul and body, we are to use our spirit to control our soul and then our soul controls and directs our body, that is the way Adam was created, but how is it today in you and me, it is our body, our five senses that control our soul, the information that we receive through them, you have proved that here in this thread, when a poster said something unkind to you, you received the info through your eyes and your emotions responded in sending a message through the body, your fingers typing a response, revealing how you felt, what your soul was saying about your emotions (and just read many of these threads, it's the same with many who post here), we see pride, anger, disbelief, revenge and on the other side we see joy, thankfulness, love, peace, ...all emotions expressions of how the person is feeling ...so from observation of this very forum is proof that for many their soul is directed and guided by the body, our five senses.

On the other hand, man was created to have his spirit guide and direct his soul 1 Th 5:23 and that would be the emotions the body revealed, ...and his spirit was in communication with God, so actually it is God, through His Holy Spirit, telling our spirit how to direct and guide our soul, and what our the emotions of a Holy Spirit guided spirit in man, love, manifested by joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness and self-control (there it is, control of the body).

But, how many people do you see or know that manifest these emotions of the Holy Spirit on a daily basis, 24/7, only one that I know of, our Lord Jesus Christ, the perfect Man, He lived a perfect life, He was/is our role model as to how we are to live and the story of His Transfiguration is the Scriptural proof that He had lived a perfect sinless life, ...something you or I can't even dare to think or speak of.

It's taken some time, and I thank you for your patience, but there is the proof, man's spirit is dead, it died the day Adam rebelled, it could no longer have communion with God, no longer in direct communication with what God wanted for man, why, because,

You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, and can not look upon vexation. Hab 1:13

man had sinned and God is too Holy to live with sin, just look at how God dealt with man, with a few exceptions, until His Son, the Word, became flesh and dwelt among us, for the most part He was hidden, spoke through intermediaries, wrote on tablets of stone for man to read, ...and that is why Jesus said you and I need to be born again to have communion with God , we need our spirits and souls cleansed by the blood and regenerated so that we can receive info from the Holy Spirit as to how to guide and direct our souls and have communion with God the Father and to be able to worship Him in spirit and Truth.

Blessings
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Spirit issues are difficult to work through. I still don't believe that Adam's spirit died that day. There are things about the spirit and about the Holy Spirit that I don't understand, and I think that none of us understand. Somehow, we have the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit. How does that happen? I believe that if we can have the Holy Spirit, then Adam would also have had the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit doesn't die, He is God. I don't understand HOW the Holy Spirit can be God, but I am accepting that on faith.

I don't agree that God was not in communion with Adam after the fall. The Bible records that God spoke with Adam. There is more to this than just that God turned away from Adam. God didn't. I mentioned the sacrifice for Adam's sin before and you guys thought it was funny, but consider it more carefully. I believe the reason that Adam didn't die that day was because God provided a substitute for him. The Bible is full of stories like this, the innocent animal that was killed as a substitute for Adam and Eve, the animal that God provided as a substitute for Isaac, the animal that Able sacrificed and the reason Cain's sacrifice of plants was not acceptable to God, the scapegoat in Moses' time, right up to the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross. The sacrifice of the innocent as a substitute for the sinner.
 
I'd like to reply a very simple belief of mine on this subject. When Adam sinned, the death that God told him would happen was Spiritual (separation from God) and physical (when he died physically). When Adam was created, I believe that the Holy Spirit entered Adams heart makeup. When Adam sinned, the Holy Spirit left him. When God supplied an animal for clothing, in the background He forgave Adams transgression on the basis of the animal's shed blood. In a sense, Adam died spiritually because the Holy Spirit left His indwelling. The fact that Adam was forgiven, the Holy Spirit could come upon Adam for a given task that God wanted done.

Adam was alive physically, but dead spiritually because of the absence of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Adam, later on died physically and was buried. Adam was "generated" by the indwelling Holy Spirit. When Adam sinned, he ceased being generated by the Holy Spirit. That is why we must be re-generated by the Holy Spirit at Salvation.
 
Timothy bro, there are things I don't understand either, like how to post multiple quotes, dear reba explained it to me, but it's just over my head, I'll respond to what you have said in blue.

Timothy said:

Spirit issues are difficult to work through.

Tim, today, for us, everything is spiritual, look at Paul's prayer for the Colossians and us,

For this cause we also, since the day we heard, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that you might be filled with the knowledge of His will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding, Col 1:9

Just do a word search on the word spiritual in the NT, it's clear, we who are born again are to consider ourselves spiritual creatures rather than physical, i.e., die to to the old carnal nature, put on the new man, also, may I suggest you start a journal, write down all of the things the Lord speaks to you in your daily reading of His Word, include also the things you don't understand and write down what you think it means, then pray and ask for wisdom, James 1:5 it might be that day or the next, or next week or next month or maybe next year or maybe even ten years, but the Lord will answer your prayer and when He does you will see and understand and what you thought was difficult will be as clear as day.


I still don't believe that Adam's spirit died that day.

Then what is dead in you and me that needs to be born again? Remember we are conceived in sin and born sinners, exactly like all of our great grandfather Adam's children,

And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years and fathered a son in his own likeness, after his own image. And he called his name Seth. Gen 5:3

Look at how the Holy Spirit inspired that to be written, it's backwards, showing the fall of man, in Gen 1:26 it was image first and then likeness, here it is likeness first and image second, man was no longer created (by procreation) in the image of God.

There are things about the spirit and about the Holy Spirit that I don't understand, and I think that none of us understand.

Yes we can, in fact it's our privilege to search out the matter, it's one way we can show our love and worship Father, by so doing we are showing Him we are not just loving Him for the bennies, but are seriously interested in getting to know Him and learn about Him, also it will protect us in this time of great deception and apostasy sweeping through the church.

Somehow, we have the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit. How does that happen?

Again, take a look in the mirror, do you resemble your father, yes, we all do because it's passed to us through the genes in his sperm, that is how we have the Holy Spirit, ...through His sperm,

...having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the living Word of God, and abiding forever. 1Pe 1:23

The corruptible seed is a reference to our first birth and the sperm of our father that entered into our mothers ovum (egg), the incorruptible seed is the sperm of the Holy Spirit, but what is the ovum? And where would the womb be, so to speak in us? Peter tell us the ovum or egg is the Word of God, and then he records for us what the specific verses the Lord used, Is 40:6-8

For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower thereof falls away: 1Pe 1:24

Then he tells us that particular verse, spoken at the precise chosen time by the Father, illuminated, "Let there be light," him and us to our sinful state is the Gospel,

But the word of the Lord endures for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.1Pe 1:25,

When did this occur in the life of Peter?

When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord. Luke 5:8,

but John tells us that they could not be born again at that time of transition because the Holy Spirit had not yet been given,

This is the way every born again child of God is born again and receives the Holy Spirit and just like we know who our father and mother are we will know our Spiritual Father is, the Holy Spirit and the verse the Father used to conceive us, like Peter taught us, ...and the date of when we were born again, for myself it was/is the same as Peter, Is 40:6-8 and it was at a Wednesday night Bible Study around 9 PM in July of '86,

...we all stand before Father naked in our sin, just like Adam and Eve afraid and embarrassed, knowing because we are sinners destined for Hell, it's at that moment, if, like you said, the soil (our heart) has been properly prepared, the good news of the Gospel, Jesus died for my sins, as it is written, was buried, and rose again the third day, as it is written, becomes meaningful to us and we have the opportunity to chose to receive or reject Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

Brother this is getting way to long, sorry, I have to leave, so I will wait for you response and respond to it later,

Blessings
 
Ricko said:
Abel's sacrifice was acceptable because he offered it in faith.
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Think deeper. You think that I'm wrong because you have a different belief than I do. You ASSUME that I am wrong. Yes, Cain didn't offer his sacrifice in faith. You are right about that. It was ALSO the wrong sacrifice, because Cain didn't understand that the wages of sin is death. He didn't realize the seriousness of sin.

I'm getting nowhere in this discussion. Believe that Adam died that day if y'all want to. Whatever. Just know that the BIBLE doesn't say that Adam died that day. Not that it matters to anyone what the BIBLE has to say.
 
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