Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?

[Eugene]

Jesus is speaking of Satan being their spiritual fathers, their god and not the physical seed of Satan

Hi Royff, and thanks for the reply. If that be the case, what do you think of all who believe on Jesus becoming the children of God?
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Are you sure we can't assume those following the flesh are not children of the devil?

 

[Royff]

We become children of God through adoption, for anyone claim to be the seed of God is to claim equality with God,that's blasphemy. There is only one that is begotten of God, that the Son of God who is the essence of all that the Father is. I know for sure that I am not all that the Father is, I am a created being. if you mean that they are children of Satan by procreation from a physical seed,my answer is, no they are not the physical seed of Satan but the spiritual seed of Satan. Satan himself was an angel of heaven, they are of a different order than mankind, they weren't given within them a seed producing after his king. In other words,he cannot procreate, he just does have reproductive organs.

Now there is another group of beings somewhere among the stars that seems to be genetically similar to man in DNA make-up. These beings left their first estate willingly to have sex with the women of the earth, they seem to be physical beings with the ability to reproduce in their after their on kind. Many confuse these beings with the fallen spirit beings or angels of heaven. But Genesis does not state that these being were from heaven. the bible simply state that sons of God left their abode to have sex with women.

Now many claim that because the bible states that they are called son of God they must be angels of heaven, but the bible make no such claim. the Lord have spirit sons of God and also physical sons, Jesus became a physical son of God. We once we are born again are called physical sons of God. we don't know how many other physical sons God may have among the stars who have the life reproducing seed in them. But it seems the these beings are of a different make-up of Lucifer and his angels. Remember, the Lord said He has other sheep that of not of this fold. that after identifying both Jew and Greek as being this one fold, so there is some other fold the seems to be other than ours. I'm not preaching this as gospel, but putting all scripture together, it seems tome that God may have some other physical beings that is not of this fold.

 

[Eugene]

We become children of God through adoption, for anyone claim to be the seed of God is to claim equality with God,that's blasphemy.

Hi again Royff, I'll just paste an excerpt from a study of Ephesians - The Exaltation of the Sons of God - by A.S. Copley

"God marked us out for sonship - the first and basic spiritual blessing. Some teachers would rob us of the enjoyment of it, by belittling its meaning. Therefore, let us consider the original word (huiothesian), here translated "adoption of children." It is from "huios" meaning "a son"; and from "tithemi" meaning "to place, put, set, fix, determine, plant." It signifies to place or fix as sons. The Diagiott renders it "sonship," which expresses it correctly. The phrase, "adoption of children," does not state the exact fact. By the new birth we receive "the Spirit of His (God's) Son," which certainly means far more than adoption - Galatians 4:6. Most emphatically, we are not adopted into God's family. We are born into it, by being "born of God" - I John 5:1. An adopted child is only added; and partakes in no sense of the natures of the parents. A child who is born of his parents, partakes of the natures and dispositions of the parents. Believers on Christ are made "partakers of the divine nature" (II Peter 1:4), and "are made partakers of Christ" (Hebrews 3:14). Otherwise, they could not be heavenly or spiritual."

As sons, heirs, and joint heirs IF so be we suffer with Jesus. Rom 8:17

 

[Corn Pop]

How long does the destruction last?


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

• These shall be punished with everlasting destruction

JLB

One verse says from the presence of the Lord and another verse says in the presence of the Lord and the Holy Angels.

Is it in the presence of the Lord or away from the presence of the Lord.

 

[reba]

Questions for Christians (Q&A)
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[WIP]

I have unlocked this thread now that it has been moved to the appropriate forum.

 

[JLB]

One verse says from the presence of the Lord and another verse says in the presence of the Lord and the Holy Angels.

Is it in the presence of the Lord or away from the presence of the Lord.

You would need to post each scripture that you are referring to, so we all can examine the verse and it’s context.

The two scriptures that I think you are referring to, use to different Greek words for presence.

IOW words I can witness an event in my presence (1) without being at the event taking place, in its presence (2).


Example.: Abraham’s Bosom


Abraham was present and witnessed the torment of the rich man, without being there with him in his presence to be effected by the fire.



JLB

 

[JLB]

It is the destruction that is eternal, there is no resurrection from this destruction. Where as in the destruction of the physical body in the first death, even though the physical body was destroyed it is resurrected. But in this second death its the soul that is destroyed for the soul there is no resurrection, this death is eternal, the flames of God that destroys the soul is eternal flame. Our God is a consuming eternal fire, but the soul of man is not eternal but is consumed by this eternal flame of the Lord. It is the flame that is eternal, not what's consumed by it.

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Revelation 14:9-11

Not rest day or night.
Torment last forever.



JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

1. In the Book of Genesis, the Lord explained the meaning of death to Adam that would be the result if he ate of the forbidden fruit. In that explanation, the Lord informed the man that he would return to the dust from which he came, for dust he is and to dust he will return. In this there is no mention of the man suffering in eternal flames without a moments relief, surely, a loving Father would warn His child of this most terrible fate if it were true.

Since the Lord made no mention of this terrible fate of the unrepentant sinner, how is it that the sinner that the Lord said was mortal has now become immortal and live throughout all eternality even though it’s in hell. At what point did the mortal man became immortal spirit? I know that the Word of God doesn’t contradict itself, but something is not adding up here!

That is actually a good question with a simple answer. but first one must consider the truths about God:

1. Omnipotence Isa44:24, Jude 24-25, John 10:17-18, Psalm 147:5
2. Omniscience Isa 46:9-10, 40:13-14, Psa 39:4, 139:1-3, 139:15-16, Job 21:22, Psalm 147:4-5, and more
3. Omnipresence Gen. 1:31-2;1, 1Chr 28:9, Job 37:16, Psa 37:13-15, Rom 11:33 and more

That third one is what we need here. There is no place God is not present nor is there any time if we could Time Travel.

Consider this, the bible teaches us there is not a single thing that Jesus did not create. (John 1:1-3) Not only the world we live on but the Time Space Continuum everything exists was also given, a gift from our God YHVH! His Word, when or if studied with Prayer and in the presence of the Holy Spirit, explains to us that YHVH does not live, only, within our Tims/Space Continuum when we consider it, He created from where that here exists. I have no idea where YHVH is from nor how it all works, that requires the Faith He has given to me and to everyone of us to believe.

Now, if I can think about it, God sending people into the Eternal Lake of Fire! First and simplest to see with Bible Study, God does not condemn anyone to te Lake of Fire, just as He did not, as the Calvinist believes, that would mean God is a capricious being and that is not true!

But that begs the question, "How could He otherwise have written the Lamb's Book of Life? This is where the basic knowledge 7ou thought I would never shut up about comes in. There is no limit to God! Time means nothing to Him and before I or you surrendered our destiny to Him, He had already been there and watched us surrender and then how we lived our lives.

I pray this helps.

 

[Jim Parker]

In the Book of Genesis, the Lord explained the meaning of death to Adam that would be the result if he ate of the forbidden fruit. In that explanation, the Lord informed the man that he would return to the dust from which he came, for dust he is and to dust he will return. In this there is no mention of the man suffering in eternal flames without a moments relief, surely, a loving Father would warn His child of this most terrible fate if it were true.

Since the Lord made no mention of this terrible fate of the unrepentant sinner, how is it that the sinner that the Lord said was mortal has now become immortal and live throughout all eternality even though it’s in hell. At what point did the mortal man became immortal spirit? I know that the Word of God doesn’t contradict itself, but something is not adding up here!

You are partially correct.
The LORD made no mention of eternal torment AT THAT TIME.
But it is found in scripture later.
First: The resurrection.
All of mankind will be raised from the grave. They will be raised immortal (in body and soul) and they will be raised incorruptible. (In destructible)
1 Cor 15:52-54 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
Second: There are two "places" in which a person may spend eternity; "heaven" (The kingdom of God) or hell.
Mat 25:46 And these (those who showed no mercy) will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

So, according to Jesus, all of mankind will either join Him in the kingdom of God or join the devil in hell.
And, according to Paul, at the resurrection, all of mankind will be raised from the grave immortal and indestructible.
So, the risen person will either be in heaven for eternity or in hell for eternity.

And, you are correct, the Father is loving and does not want any of His creation to suffer eternal torment.
He he also a loving father who does not force us to love Him nor does He impose His will on us. We have free will to choose to accept the gift of eternal life or to reject it and suffer the second death. (2Pe 3:9)
People go to hell because they choose to reject God as God and try to be a god in their own right. That was the temptation of the devil in the Garden (Gen 3:5) and the choice of serving God as God or oneself as one's own god continues to be the basis of all sin until today.

iakov the fool

 

[chessman]

according to Paul, at the resurrection, all of mankind will be raised from the grave immortal and indestructible.

Nope, Paul doesn’t say ‘all of mankind’ will be raised from the grave immortal and indestructible. Paul said “we”, “brothers“ will be raised, “changed” immortal.

Now I say this, brothers: that flesh and blood are not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor does decay inherit undecayability. Behold, I tell you a mystery: we will not all fall-asleep. But we will all be changed— ...​

1 Corinthians 15:50-51 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:50-51&version=DLNT

 

[Butch5]

In the Book of Genesis, the Lord explained the meaning of death to Adam that would be the result if he ate of the forbidden fruit. In that explanation, the Lord informed the man that he would return to the dust from which he came, for dust he is and to dust he will return. In this there is no mention of the man suffering in eternal flames without a moments relief, surely, a loving Father would warn His child of this most terrible fate if it were true.

Since the Lord made no mention of this terrible fate of the unrepentant sinner, how is it that the sinner that the Lord said was mortal has now become immortal and live throughout all eternality even though it’s in hell. At what point did the mortal man became immortal spirit? I know that the Word of God doesn’t contradict itself, but something is not adding up here!

No, eternal torment is not a Biblical concept. It's been drawn from a few misunderstood passages and some poor translating. As you pointed out God told Adam he was dust and would return to it.

 

[rstrats]

Jim Parker,
re: "And, you are correct, the Father is loving and does not want any of His creation to suffer eternal torment."


Which is why scripture never says that is to be anyone's fate (with the possible exception of the devil as the KJV has it).

BTW, does the supreme being have any involvement in the creation of a person, and if so, does He know whether or not He will be casting the person into the lake of fire sometime in the future?

 

[OzSpen]

Nope, Paul doesn’t say ‘all of mankind’ will be raised from the grave immortal and indestructible. Paul said “we”, “brothers“ will be raised, “changed” immortal.

Now I say this, brothers: that flesh and blood are not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor does decay inherit undecayability. Behold, I tell you a mystery: we will not all fall-asleep. But we will all be changed— ...​

1 Corinthians 15:50-51 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:50-51&version=DLNT

chessman,

That do you think Jesus meant when he said:

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned (John 5:28-29).

Oz

 

[chessman]

chessman,

That do you think Jesus meant when he said:



Oz

Exactly what He said (twice in the same chapter for clarity). The other time in this chapter (as well as all other references to the lost’s final judgment/punishment/condemnation), He made abundantly clear what He means by condemnation. It’s death, destruction, a second death, destruction of the body and soul in Hell, etc.

Truly, truly, I say to you that the one hearing My word and believing the One having sent Me has eternal life. And he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.​

...​

Do not be marveling- at this, because an hour is coming in which all the ones in the graves will hear His voice, and will come out— the ones having done the good things to a resurrection of life; the ones having practiced the bad things to a resurrection of judgment.​

John 5:24,28-29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 5:24,28-29&version=DLNT

 

[OzSpen]

Exactly what He said (twice in the same chapter for clarity). The other time in this chapter (as well as all other references to the lost’s final judgment/punishment/condemnation), He made abundantly clear what He means by condemnation. It’s death, destruction, a second death, destruction of the body and soul in Hell, etc.

Truly, truly, I say to you that the one hearing My word and believing the One having sent Me has eternal life. And he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.​

...​

Do not be marveling- at this, because an hour is coming in which all the ones in the graves will hear His voice, and will come out— the ones having done the good things to a resurrection of life; the ones having practiced the bad things to a resurrection of judgment.​

John 5:24,28-29 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=John 5:24,28-29&version=DLNT

chessman,

I cannot agree with this position for the following reasons:

Whether one accepts the story of the rich man and Lazarus as an actual event or a parable (Luke 16: 19-30 NIV), the truth is that under the Old Covenant (this story was reported prior to Christ's crucifixion), this gives a clear statement of what happened to the rich man after death when he was in Hades:

In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham,have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire (Lk 16: 23-24 NIV).​

​

After death, the rich man (unbeliever) had to be conscious to be able to have 'looked up and saw Abraham', 'called to him' and 'I am in agony in this fire'. One has to do a lot of exegetical wriggling to get out of the fact that at death, under the Old Covenant, both the believer and unbeliever were conscious and in a 2 compartment Hades.

Robert Peterson had pursued extensive research into the nature of hell. His assessment, with which I agree, is:

I reject annihilationism and believe in endless punishment for three main reasons. First, traditionalism is the historic view of the Christian church. Second, endless punishment fits better than annihilationism with other scriptural teachings. Third, and most importantly, five biblical passages constrain my belief in eternal conscious punishment: Matthew 25:41, 46; Mark 9:42–48; 2 Thessalonians 1:5–10; Revelation 14:9– 11; and Revelation 20:10, 14–15.​

​

Jesus declares in Matthew 25:41 that the destiny of the unsaved is “the eternal fire prepared for the devil.” Matthew 25:46 uses the same adjective, eternal, to describe the fates of the lost and saved: “eternal punishment” and “eternal life.” Jesus depicts “hell” as a place “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:47–48). Paul’s reference to “eternal destruction” in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, indicates a figurative devastation that the damned will experience forever in hell, separated from the Lord’s royal presence. Revelation 14:10, where we read that the impenitent “will be tormented with burning sulfur,” depicts the hellfire imagery as agony, not annihilation. John speaks of everlasting torment when he adds, “and the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever” (v. 11). John’s description of Satan’s fate in Revelation 20:10 as being placed in “the lake of fire and sulfur” and being “tormented day and night for ever and ever” signifies everlasting pain, a fate that lost human beings share (Rev. 20:15) [The Dark Side of Eternity: Hell as Eternal Conscious Punishment (CRI)].​

​

Oz

 

[chessman]

this gives a clear statement of what happened to the rich man after death when he was in Hades:

Okay, but this was a story (parable or not) describing their consciousness after their first death in Hades and Paridise respectively and before ther final judgment, not after the Rich man’s final judgment and punishment, his second death (being cast into Hell) where God is able to destroy both the body and soul.

One has to do a lot of exegetical wriggling to get out of the fact that at death, under the Old Covenant, both the believer and unbeliever were conscious and in a 2 compartment Hades.

It’s not my position that after the first death either those loved by God (as depicted by Lazarus) or the wicked (as depicted by the rich man) are unconscious (under either the old or new covenant). I agree, it takes a complete disregard of Scripture (not to mention daily observations) to believe God has raised those in Hades, finally judged them wicked and cast them into Hell where He’s able to destroy both their body and soul as wicked and destroy them.

I reject annihilationism and believe in endless punishment for three main reasons.

What’s your definition of annihilationism? Does the belief in the destruction of both the body and soul by God sound like annihilationism to you? It may be that your idea of annihilation (like Mr. Peterson’s whom I’ve read) isn’t really what annihilationism believes. For example, no well studied annihilationist (or ECT believer for that matter) I know of believes that the Rich Man had been raised from the dead, judged and sentenced to his final punishment in Jesus’s story.

What’s your definition of the final and everlasting punishment of the post-judged wicked?

Does destruction of both the body and soul as they are cast into Hell work as a Biblical definition?

Or is their final punishment - conscious non-destruction of the body and/or soul?

 

[chessman]

I cannot agree with this position for the following reasons:

BTW, none of your reasoning addressed my exegetical point.

“Truly, truly, I say to you that the one hearing My word and believing the One having sent Me has eternal life. And he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.​

...

Do not be marveling- at this, because an hour is coming in which all the ones in the graves will hear His voice, and will come out— the ones having done the good things to a resurrection of life; the ones having practiced the bad things to a resurrection of judgment.”​

What do you think about Jesus teaching in the above two passages in comparison? If in one passage a person who is not raised to judgment (i.e. a saved person with eternal life) but rather is raised to life. And in the other passage the saved person with eternal life, does not come into judgment (i.e. has passed from death to life). Doesn’t that sound like those raised to judgment are raised to die a second death?

​

 

[Butch5]

In the Book of Genesis, the Lord explained the meaning of death to Adam that would be the result if he ate of the forbidden fruit. In that explanation, the Lord informed the man that he would return to the dust from which he came, for dust he is and to dust he will return. In this there is no mention of the man suffering in eternal flames without a moments relief, surely, a loving Father would warn His child of this most terrible fate if it were true.

Since the Lord made no mention of this terrible fate of the unrepentant sinner, how is it that the sinner that the Lord said was mortal has now become immortal and live throughout all eternality even though it’s in hell. At what point did the mortal man became immortal spirit? I know that the Word of God doesn’t contradict itself, but something is not adding up here!

When Christians began mixing Greek Philosophy with Christianity.

 

[Jim Parker]

re: "And, you are correct, the Father is loving and does not want any of His creation to suffer eternal torment."
Which is why scripture never says that is to be anyone's fate (with the possible exception of the devil as the KJV has it).

From the KJV:
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, ...

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whore mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.