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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?
- Thread starter Royff
- Start date
I believe my spirit was eternal, in the past.
However, since eternity precludes time, past or present but is perpetually now, it’s hard to put into words.
If you are asking me personally about any recollection of being in my mother’s womb or of any existence I may have had in the past, the answer is no.
I’m doing good to remember events of last week.
If you are asking me what the scriptures say.
There are two verses that come to mind about this subject.
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:29
By saying foreknew, the Holy Spirit is saying God knew me, when I was predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.
So a good question might be: When was I predestined.
Possibly before the foundation of the world.
On the other hand, Zechariah says.
The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1
The Lord forms the spirit of man within him.
For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
Psalm 139:13
Form does not necessarily mean create.
JLB
Oh but Paul does.
Which verse shows us that people cast into the everlasting fire, cease to exist?
chessman
Member
Thanks for answering my first question, but I wish you hadn’t failed to answer my other two.
Do you believe He foreknew the number of hairs on your head?
Do you believe your hairs were eternal, in the past?
Which scholarly translation has a 2 Thess 1:9 translation that uses “eternal death”?
Everyone who is called by My name, And whom I have created for My glory, Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”
Isaiah 43:7 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Isaiah 43:7&version=NASBDo you believe that everyone created for His glory, God also formed?
How long does this verse say the destruction will last?
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Thessalonians 1:9
And again
46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46
JLB
I wasn’t referring to 2 Thessalonians 1:9
Edited
How long does this scripture say the punishment of destruction lasts?
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Thessalonians 1:9
again
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Revelation 14:9-11
- the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night,
How long does the smoke of their torment ascend?
again
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46
How long does this scripture say the punishment lasts?
JLB
Last edited by a moderator:
P
PrayingMantisRcutiepie
Guest
There you have it!
Though you'll encounter the stictarians, as I call them, who insist that's not that simple. It's something more. They have that kind of idea that God is this tyrant and they have to be this terrified supplicant bowing slave all their lives in order to qualify when they're dead for everything God promised in scripture.
But, that doesn't make sense because what scripture promises is overcome by what scripture doesn't say when strictarians put in their three cents.
I think too often we have it backwards. God didn't create mankind and then lay down the law saying, "Obey or else." It wasn't necessary because until the fall, mankind trusted God completely for everything. Then mankind decided gave in to the temptation presented by Satan and decided he/she no longer needed God for everything. Mankind condemned mankind to hell. God doesn't force us to seek out our own desires but He does provide a way out when temptation presents itself as Scripture says....
6 Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play.” 8 We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. 9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents, 10 nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come. 12 Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
1 Corinthians 10:6-13 ESV
Just adding to the conversation.
Did the rich man get burned up in the fire, where he ceased to exist?
Please consider this.
How long does this scripture say the punishment of destruction lasts?
These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Thessalonians 1:9
again
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Revelation 14:9-11
- the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night,
How long does the smoke of their torment ascend?
again
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:46
How long does this scripture say the punishment lasts?
JLB
chessman
Member
Your hairs, on your head; do you believe they were eternal in the past? (simple question)
Your hairs on your physical body; Do you believe your hairs (your physical hair on your physical head on your physical body) were eternal, in the past? (Simple question).
If you believe God foreknew the number of your hairs and your hairs were not eternal in the past, then I don’t see how God foreknowing you (hairs and all) implies an eternally past “you” (spirit or body). I mean after all, you are His creature.
WRT what Paul wrote to the Thessalonian church in 2 Thess 1:9, I asked you why you use a phrase Paul doesn’t use in the passage we were discussing
Your response was
I’m sure I am mistaken about many things. However, my two question(s) not being answered by you is not a mistake.
In discussion of 2 Thess 1:8-9 you said
Why, when every translation of this passage I am aware of clearly says “eternal destruction”?
Not to mention that the other question you haven’t answered was
In support of your stated belief that your spirit was past eternal, you mentioned these two passages
then claimed about them; “Form does not necessarily mean create”so I simply asked you another simple and straightforward question about your claim in light of what another Scripture does state: If you also don’t want to answer this question then I understand your reasons for believing that your spirit is past eternal to be weak and unsupported by any Scripture:
Simple question.You’ve presented no Scriptural support for believing that your spirit is past eternal. And furthermore, outside of a person being in Christ, what Scripture is there to claim a person’s spirit, soul and/or body is future eternal?
Sure. This isn’t the scripture I am trying to use to somehow over rule what the plain and clear scriptures say about the eternal destruction and torment and punishment of the disobedient. In fact I’ve not presented any Scripture to “over rule” any other Scripture. But I have asked you why you’d change eternal destruction into eternal death.
For ever.
Now please answer my question, does this Scripture say their destruction lasts forever or does it say their spirit lasts forever?
Forever.
Forever.
How long does something that's destroyed last?
“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH SOUL AND BODY IN HELL” (Matthew 10:28).
- de·stroy
[dəˈstroi]
VERB
destroyed (past tense) · destroyed (past participle)
If the destruction is everlasting, the it continues forever.
If the punishment is everlasting, then it continues forever.
We certainly know the fire is everlasting.
JLB