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Is faith a condition?

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RJS said:
I am sure JM will not complain if I jump in here being the AV1611 in question.

Tobias Crisp was a minister in the 1600s, his brother was a friend of King Charles I who was executed by Oliver Cromwell.

2Ti 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

What Crisp was arguing, and I agree with him, is that faith is not a condition of salvation. Salvation being a gift (Eph 2:8) includes faith and so faith is a fruit of electing grace and is a grace "which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began". This being so, it is wrong to say that faith causes our salvation or is a condition of it.
Please note the following.

Ephesians 2

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith
–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Hebrews 11

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God
, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Romans 3

28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.


All the scriptures above show that having faith is a condition of salvation. Now it is true that faith is also a gift, but it is a gift which must be made use of to qualify for salvation. Also, a person has to make sure that he abides by the correct definition of ‘having faith’. Having faith correctly has many attributes (including believing in God). However practicing the attributes does not save anyone. A person must have faith correctly to produce all the attributes of faith – which includes believing in God, confessing Christ as Lord, etc. It is the person who has faith correctly, which leads to all the attributes of faith showing in him, who is in fact saved. That is what the following scriptures mean.

(NASB)

James 2


17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
19 You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
 
AVBunyan said:
PDoug - Are you saying your faith produces "justification, santification, righteous works, intelligence, etc."?

Iif so how do you reconcile your statement in light of...
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,

God bless
Please note the following.

(NIV)

Galatians 2


16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

(NASB)

Galatians 2


16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

(Amplified Bible)

Galatians 2


16 Yet we know that a man is justified or reckoned righteous and in right standing with God not by works of the Law, but [only] through faith and [absolute] reliance on and adherence to and trust in Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One). [Therefore] even we [ourselves] have believed on Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the Law [for we cannot be justified by any observance of the ritual of the Law given by Moses], because by keeping legal rituals and by works no human being can ever be justified (declared righteous and put in right standing with God).

(New King James Version)

Galatians 2


16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

(KJV)

Galatians 2


16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Notice how all but the last version of the scripture above, say faith in Jesus. Only the King James Version says the faith of Jesus – which means the faith you have, given to you by Jesus. This is confirmed by the following scripture.

(KJV)

Matthew 9


2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.


Notice how in the scripture above, Jesus declared the sick man’s sins forgiven, on account his and his friends’ faith. Therefore it is an individual's own faith in God, given to him by Christ, which saves him.
 
PDoug said:
Notice how all but the last version of the scripture above, say faith in Jesus. Only the King James Version says the faith of Jesus – which means the faith you have, given to you by Jesus. This is confirmed by the following scripture.
As I mentioned - one has to go to the modern versions to make it man's faith.

Question then - How is the sinner justified?
By your faith in Christ or...
By what Christ did at Calvary?

Your faith cannot justify and that is what the modern versions teach by making it "faith in".

Only God can justify - Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

If one sticks with the AV then Christ's work justifies - If you go with the modern versions then your faith justifies.

I wouldnt' give you a plugged nickel for your faith...or mine.:o

Which is it? I'll stick with the AV, thank you.

God bless
 
AVBunyan said:
As I mentioned - one has to go to the modern versions to make it man's faith.
Not really, the KJV of Mat. 9:2 shows that a man is justified by his own faith.

AVBunyan said:
Question then - How is the sinner justified?
By your faith in Christ or...
By what Christ did at Calvary?

Your faith cannot justify and that is what the modern versions teach by making it "faith in".

Only God can justify - Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

If one sticks with the AV then Christ's work justifies - If you go with the modern versions then your faith justifies.

I wouldnt' give you a plugged nickel for your faith...or mine.:o

Which is it? I'll stick with the AV, thank you.

God bless
God justifies a man who has faith in God. That is all Romans 8:33 means.
 
PDoug said:
Not really, the KJV of Mat. 9:2 shows that a man is justified by his own faith.
The issue is forgiveness of sins prior to Calvary vs. justification after Calvary.

Salvation/Justification after Calvary is different than just forgiveness of sins prior to Calvary. Prior to Calvary sins m ay be forgiven but the person is not justified for that comes after Calvary. Justification carries with it “cleared from all sins†or as it is as though the sinner had never committed a sin. Plus after Calvary under grace the justification is positional and back then it was not. Prior to Calvary there is forgiveness under some instances but after Calvary one gets more than just forgiveness - he also gets justificatioin - Study the variations nof ojustified in an AV.

Those men in the Gospels (prior to Calvary) had their sins forgiven but were not justified in the sense that Paul uses justified. True justification is where the man is cleared from all sins and sin – he has been declared righteous on t he basis of the merits of another. This was not going on prior to Calvary.


We are back to where we started. Both passages are right for their time periods. Back then their faith let Christ forgive their sins. After Calvary under Paul it is Christ’s faith that truly justifies based upon Calvary. Where do you want to live – under the law prior to Calvary or after Calvary under grace?

God bless
 
AVBunyan said:
The issue is forgiveness of sins prior to Calvary vs. justification after Calvary.

Salvation/Justification after Calvary is different than just forgiveness of sins prior to Calvary. Prior to Calvary sins m ay be forgiven but the person is not justified for that comes after Calvary. Justification carries with it “cleared from all sins†or as it is as though the sinner had never committed a sin. Plus after Calvary under grace the justification is positional and back then it was not. Prior to Calvary there is forgiveness under some instances but after Calvary one gets more than just forgiveness - he also gets justificatioin - Study the variations nof ojustified in an AV.

Those men in the Gospels (prior to Calvary) had their sins forgiven but were not justified in the sense that Paul uses justified. True justification is where the man is cleared from all sins and sin – he has been declared righteous on t he basis of the merits of another. This was not going on prior to Calvary.


We are back to where we started. Both passages are right for their time periods. Back then their faith let Christ forgive their sins. After Calvary under Paul it is Christ’s faith that truly justifies based upon Calvary. Where do you want to live – under the law prior to Calvary or after Calvary under grace?

God bless
Men have always been justified by faith: since Adam till now. (This will of course continue into the future.)

(KJV)

Hebrews 11


1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.
4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken himâ€Â; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;
10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

(KJV)

Romans 4


1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.â€Â
4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
David Celebrates the Same Truth
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.â€Â


As you can see from the scriptures above, men have always been justified by faith. Therefore it is not true that the rules of justification changed after Calvary.
 
That is incorrect as he explains here: http://sovereign-grace.com/933.htm Faith is not accounted as our righteousness but is rather the instrument through which we receive the righteousness of Christ which is what justifies us.

I wasn't saying that faith is righteousness but that our faith in God is accounted to us as righteousness.

I said no more and no less than the Bible itself says:

"For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness." (Romans 4:3-5)

What then do you say to that?
 
You then would disregard the passage I posted [with Greek supporting it] which lists faith as being apart of the gifts of God and the fruit of the Spirit? Or do you believe that God gives all men faith and then withdraws it so they backslide and fall away?

Of course not. God is always faithful, but who says that we have to accept the gift of faith (which is grace to us) and utilize it, and Paul even urged Christians not to recieve the grace of God in vain. We can fail to utilize God's grace. I don't know about you but I stumble sometimes. I have persevered but that is not to say that others can loose their faith. God doesn't force himself on you. It is on our part to believe (actively, not just a past event) but it we falter we can go the opposite direction.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

That is correct the false prophets that John was talking about went out from them but were not of them. There can be those who claim to be saved that are in fact not. However you can also be genuinely saved (I'll explain below) and fall from grace.

With this understanding I have no trouble reading 1 Tim. 4 or Hebrews 6 and seeing where 1 John applies.

As for Hebrews 6:4-6 I do not see how you explain the terminology which desribes what only the believer can have:

4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.


Lets deal with these in order:

Been enlightened:

Well those who are not saved are perishing and have not seen the light of the Gospel. "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. " (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

So being enlightened cannot refer to an unbeliever.

Tasted:

To taste of God or his gifts He first has to call you and grant you grace (as a gift). No one comes to the Son unless drawn by the Father. The Bible says taste and see that the Lord is Good. Wicked unbelievers do not do that. Let's see what else the Bible says about tasting.

"Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander, like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord. " (1 Peter 2:1-3)

We are newborn believers who long for more of what we have already tasted, growing in salvation, if we have tasted the kindness of the Lord. And what does the kindness of the Lord do?

"But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior."

This is clearly something only related with salvation.

Partakers of the Holy Spirit:

Need I even go any further. An unbeliever by no means can become a partaker of the Holy Spirit. They do not have the Holy Spirit in them and cannot partake of Him. Peter says, "For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust." The people in Hebrews had already escaped the corruption in the world and had become partakers of the Divine Nature, the Holy Spirit.
 
Been enlightened:

Well those who are not saved are perishing and have not seen the light of the Gospel. "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. " (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

So being enlightened cannot refer to an unbeliever.

There is never a time when “being enlightened†refers to being born again, it’s a general knowledge of God shared in the Gospel message [Heb. 10:26; John 1:9; 2 Cor. 4:4-6]. In early Christian writings, profession of faith and baptism was sometimes termed ‘enlightenment.’†Is it possible to be partakers of the Holy Spirit and not be born again? Yes.

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

As for “tasted the heavenly gift,†you need to go a little deeper to get the full meaning, the english doesn’t cut it. The Greek means, “to taste, to try the flavour of†and “by implication to eat.†It’s my contention; this passage is in reference to the Lord’s Supper and here’s why: The word “metochos†is translated as partake and means “ to participant.†This, in the context of Christ's one time sacrifice [chp. 10] is in referance to the Church and the Lord's Supper. This is not the same word used in Hebrews 2 which is “koinoneo†and means to share, speaking of sharing in the death of Christ and refers to “brethren.†To participant in the physical Church is not the same thing as sharing in the death of Christ, the words behind the English help straighten things out.

~JM~
 
The context of Hebrews is not that they would lose their salvation – the issue is spiritual blessings promised to them. They were pursuing a spiritual rest – the rest promised to them by God if they finished faithfully. Nowhere do they lose their salvation.
If they got to such a point then God would not grant them repentance and they would lose that spiritual rest.

Israel was pursuing a land and the blessings that went along with the promised land. The saint’s blessings are not physical but spiritual and they are in heaven – Ephesians 1.

Learn to differentiate between what is meant for the nation of Israel and what is promised and meant for the body of Christ.

God bless
 
AVBunyan said:
The context of Hebrews is not that they would lose their salvation – the issue is spiritual blessings promised to them. They were pursuing a spiritual rest – the rest promised to them by God if they finished faithfully. Nowhere do they lose their salvation.
If they got to such a point then God would not grant them repentance and they would lose that spiritual rest.

Israel was pursuing a land and the blessings that went along with the promised land. The saint’s blessings are not physical but spiritual and they are in heaven – Ephesians 1.

Learn to differentiate between what is meant for the nation of Israel and what is promised and meant for the body of Christ.

God bless
I don’t understand. Wasn’t Cain found to be wicked because he lacked faith, and Abel was found to be pleasing to God because he had faith? Wasn’t Abraham pleasing to God because he had faith, while the world in general, at the time, was not, because it didn’t have faith? So how were things different from the way are today? Haven’t men always been justified by faith?

Also, aren’t men who have faith today pursuing spiritual rest like all other men throughout history? Isn’t it written throughout the Old Testament that if a righteous man turns away from righteousness he will lose his salvation - the same as the way things are today? How then are things different today than they were from the time of Adam? You said Israel was pursuing a physical promised land. But weren't these the faithless people of Israel - rather than the true faithful people of Israel? Didn’t God all the while mean that the Jerusalem the Messiah would deliver Israel to, is the one referred to in Revelation? Isn’t this the Jerusalem, everyone who has faith will go to live in?

As I said before, per Hebrews 11:1-10 and Romans 4:1-8, men are justified by faith today, the same as they have always been.
 
PDoug said:
All the scriptures above show that having faith is a condition of salvation.

Not at all. All they show is that a saved man will have faith, they do not make salvation dependant upon faith.

PDoug said:
Now it is true that faith is also a gift, but it is a gift which must be made use of to qualify for salvation.

Crisp notes:

But some will say, though Christ be a gift, yet he is a gift upon condition.

I answer, I cannot say but there is a flat contradiction, to say he is g gift, and yet conditions required. What are the conditions in a covenant, but a mere bargain and sale? I will do this, and thou shalt do that; do this, and thou shalt have that: what difference is there between this, and a bargain and sale? That God should require conditions of men, is but to receive Christ's upon bargain and sale; but Christ must be really and actually a gift. When the king gives a pardon to a thief, what are the conditions?

Peradventure the thief can do his king service, if his life he spared; but if his life be spared upon service doing, it is not a gift, but a bargain, as much as to make contract, thus, do such a piece of service, then life is yours. I say it derogates from the nature of a gift, that there should be a condition required; and the gospel, that is, Christ given over to men, cannot be said to be freely given over to them, if man must buy him: mistake me not, I speak not all this while against holiness and righteousness, that becomes a people to whom Christ is a way; for holy and righteous they shall be; Christ will make them holy, and put his spirit into them, to change their hearts and to work upon their spirits; but this is not the condition required to partake of Christ; Christ himself gives himself, and then he bestows these things when he is given.

I say, Christ is given to men first, before they do any thing in the world; and all they do, they do by Christ present in them; "I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life that I now live, I live by the faith of the Son of God." We do not so much live, but by the life of Christ, which is life in us. All the actions of life proceed from the soul, now present; how then comes the actions of the soul to be a condition to partake of the soul, that gives life, and, by its presence, works such actions? Christ is the soul of every believer, that animates, and acts the believer in all things whatsoever; must not this life, Christ, be put into a believer, before he can actuate life, which is a stream springs from that life? how then can this be a condition to receive, to have Christ, when Christ is first come, by whom these things; that are called conditions, are afterwards wrought, he himself being present to work them?

So, say I, God bestows Christ upon men to be a way to bring them to the Father; he is an absolute and free gift: there is no other motive that Christ should be any one's saviour, than merely the good pleasure of the Father, the bowels of God himself; "Not for thy sake, but for my own sake; not for thy sake, thou art a rebellious and stubborn people, but for my own sake." Here is the freeness of Christ, to a person coming to him, when be comes merely for God's sake; and God merely upon his good pleasure will do it, because he will; "He hath mercy upon whom he will have mercy, and whom he will, he hardeneth: it is not in him that willeth, (saith Paul, Rom. ix.) nor in him that runneth, but in God that sheweth mercy."

So that Christ becomes a way unto them, not out of their will, not out of their disposition, not out of their holy walkings, but out of that mercy that proceeds out of the mere will of God; his own good pleasure is the only fountain and spring of it. Beloved, I beseech you, seriously ponder and consider, that the gospel is therefore called the gospel, because it is glad tidings unto men; and so the angel interpreted it, "Behold, I bring glad tidings." Why glad. tidings? In this respect glad, the poor sinner, he is a broken creature; nay more, he is a dead creature, "Ye, who were dead in trespasses and sins." That life now is reached out unto such a person, that is a dead person; herein it is plain, that there comes forth that grace from the Lord, that a creature being dead, who can act nothing towards life, yet he shall receive life.

"The time is coming that the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear it, shall live," John v. 25. How come they by life! is there any action of theirs towards life? They are dead; it is the voice of the Son of God puts life into their dead souls; and it is glad tidings, that though the creature can do nothing, (John xv. 5. Isaiah xxvi. 12) yet Christ brings enough with him from the fountain of the Father, to bestow upon them, to bring them to him. To show you a plain scripture, that Christ becomes a way to the Father, merely as a free gift, without any thing in man required, look into Isaiah Iv. 1, "Ho, every one that thirsteth," that is, every one that hath a mind, "come to the waters, he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come and buy wine and milk without money, and without price," saith the prophet; and then he falls upon an objurgation in the next verse; "Wherefore spend ye money for that which is not bread, and labour for that which satisfies not? Eat that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness: incline your ear, hearken, and your soul shall live; I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David?

Here is the closure of all; dost thou thirst, that is, hast thou a mind really to Christ, that Christ should say really to thy soul, I ant thy salvation? It may be thou dost suspect, saying within thyself, Christ is not my portion; I am not fit for Christ; I am a great sinner, I must be holy first: this is bringing a price to Christ; but you must come without money, and without price: and what is this to come without money, and without price? It is nothing but to take the offer (Rev. iii.18. John vii. 37) of Christ, these waters of life, to take them merely and simply as a gift brought, and this is a sure mercy indeed: these are the sure mercies of David, when a man receives the things of Christ, only because Christ gives them; not in regard to any action of ours, as the ground of taking them; I mean, in regard of any action of ours, that we must bring along with us, that must concur that we may partake of this gift. Hosea xiv.

4. Christ speaks there thus to his people, "I will heal their backslidings; I will love them freely;" that is, I will love them for mine own sake. Rom..iii. 23, 94, the apostle speaks excellently concerning this free grace of God bestowed in Christ upon them; "For all have sinned and come short of tho glory of God, being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ." Mark, brethren, first he takes off all creatures, and.all flint a creature can do, "all have sinned and crone short or the glory of God;" then he shows bow we should partake of justification, namely, freely through Christ. Rom. v. The apostle speaks at large concerning the participation of Christ, to be our Christ of mere free gift, where he makes a large comparison of our participation of sin from Adam, and of our participatiou or life from Christ; and still in every passage, speaking of participating of life from and by Christ, he comes in with these expressions of gift, and that it comes freely. Rom. v. 15, "But not as by the transgression of one, so is the free gift; for if through the transgression of one, many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man Christ, hath abounded tmto many."

There is grace, and the gift by grace; so running in this expression in the 17th verse, he saith, "For if by the offence of one, death reigned by one much more they which receive abundance of grace, and of the gift of righteousness, shall reign in life by one Jesus Christ." Still, I say, observe it, that we partake of life in Christ, and by Christ; and it runs altogether upon this strain, that it comes by mere gift.
 
Hi RJS... I seperated your notes into paragraphs (taking out nothing, of course) so that it may be easier for members to read.

Peace,
Vic
 
Rom 12:3 ... God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

I believe that this is what Jesus was teaching in the parable of the talents. God gives each and every one a measure of faith. It is up to us what we do with it. The measure of faith, can be put in doctors, retirement plans, savings accounts, a career, or a relationship with a spouse. Your measure of faith can be put into drugs or alcohol. It can be put into a false religion. It can be put into abilities achieved through education, or an inheritance. Barns full of grain. It can be put into an yourself, and your ability to lie cheat and steal to achieve your goals. Your faith in any of these things can grow and your faith become stronger. With the measure of faith that we have been given, we can put it into any of these world systems. Faith can also be put into occult things and witchcraft, astrology, psychology, or the devil himself.

This measure of faith can be distributed between these things.

Or you can take the measure of faith that God has given to you and put it into Him. When one comes to the cross, and confesses faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, the faith that was once in one of the worlds systems is transferred. For some, it might be in a percentage. I believe Jesus taught that when He spoke of how some would produce 30, 60, or 100 fold. This, I believe would apply to those who believe in Jesus Christ for salvation, but will choose to believe their financial advisor over what the Word of God teaches about finances, or will continue in some other worldly practice.

As the new believer learns more about the love and power of God, and begins to believe more and more about His providence and protection, then more and more of that faith is transferred to God.

When someone makes the decision to believe that God is right - all the time - and totally sells out to Him, then 100% of that measure of faith is in Him. This is not blind faith. This is not someone who believes that they now have a free ride. This is someone that will trust God with all things. Faith to believe that they have eternal life, and heaven awaits. But also believe that God is active in every detail of their life now. Someone who believes that God provides. God heals. God protects. God restores. God delivers. God leads. This is someone who also believes that God uses their faith. God will take the believer and put them in places where He can best use them.

Jesus taught that the one who has, more will be given. When God finds a believer that is sold out, He is going to find that place where a need exist and put the two together. He gives us the desires of our heart. That proverb does not say that He gives us anything that we want. It says that He puts the desires in our heart. If He wants to use you to lead others to Him, He will put the desire in your heart for others to be saved.

The more we recognize our own sinfulness, and the more that we trust God, then the more faith we have to ask Him to purge from us things that do not please Him. We can trust Him when we go through times of pruning. And we can ask Him about the circumstances that we are enduring, knowing that He is faithful to allow us to know if we are being chastised for some wrongdoing, or if we are being pruned so that we can bear more fruit.

We can trust Him to put us in difficult situations and be with us in them. We know that the same verses that we have applied and believed on for small problems will also work against the mountains. And we know that the same faith that we have seen work against the mountains will apply in the small problems.

Is faith conditional? Scripture tells us that without faith it is impossible to pleas God. The just shall live by faith. Faith produces.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Hbr 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The conditions of faith come to us as an if/then statement, even when it is not spelled out as such in Scripture.
 
RJS said:
Not at all. All they show is that a saved man will have faith, they do not make salvation dependant upon faith
You must be joking. Please note the following.

Ephesians 2

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith
–and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God–
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Hebrews 11

6 And without faith it is impossible to please God
, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Romans 3

28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

John 3

16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.â€Â


Doesn’t Ephesians 2:8-9 say that the means by which a man is saved is through faith? If I tell you the means by which you obtain a ticket is through a particular service, doesn’t that mean a condition is placed upon how you may obtain the ticket? If Hebrews 11:6 says that a person cannot please God without having faith, doesn’t that mean that a person must meet the condition of having faith to please God? If Romans 3:28 says that a man is justified by faith, doesn’t that mean that unless he meets the condition of having faith, he will not be justified? Finally, if John 3:16 and John 3:36 say whoever believes in the Son will not perish, but whoever does not believe in the Son will perish, doesn’t that believing in the Son is the condition for salvation?

Now even if we were to say that Crisp is correct about a saved man will have faith, wouldn’t that mean that a man who does not have faith will not be saved?

Crisp notes:

But some will say, though Christ be a gift, yet he is a gift upon condition.

I answer, I cannot say but there is a flat contradiction, to say he is g gift, and yet conditions required. What are the conditions in a covenant, but a mere bargain and sale? I will do this, and thou shalt do that; do this, and thou shalt have that: what difference is there between this, and a bargain and sale? That God should require conditions of men, is but to receive Christ's upon bargain and sale; but Christ must be really and actually a gift. When the king gives a pardon to a thief, what are the conditions?
If a great big judgment is coming up around the corner, and I make available special tickets to anyone who wants them, and I say, “Because you by nature are incapable of acting righteously, take these special tickets, so that you will be deemed righteous by the judge, and so that they will cause you to act righteouslyâ€Â; why would it be unreasonable to consider these tickets gifts? Should God force his sons to accept his gifts? Where would free will be in such a scenario?


Peradventure the thief can do his king service, if his life he spared; but if his life be spared upon service doing, it is not a gift, but a bargain, as much as to make contract, thus, do such a piece of service, then life is yours. I say it derogates from the nature of a gift, that there should be a condition required; and the gospel, that is, Christ given over to men, cannot be said to be freely given over to them, if man must buy him: mistake me not, I speak not all this while against holiness and righteousness, that becomes a people to whom Christ is a way; for holy and righteous they shall be; Christ will make them holy, and put his spirit into them, to change their hearts and to work upon their spirits; but this is not the condition required to partake of Christ; Christ himself gives himself, and then he bestows these things when he is given.

I say, Christ is given to men first, before they do any thing in the world; and all they do, they do by Christ present in them; "I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me; and the life that I now live, I live by the faith of the Son of God." We do not so much live, but by the life of Christ, which is life in us. All the actions of life proceed from the soul, now present; how then comes the actions of the soul to be a condition to partake of the soul, that gives life, and, by its presence, works such actions? Christ is the soul of every believer, that animates, and acts the believer in all things whatsoever; must not this life, Christ, be put into a believer, before he can actuate life, which is a stream springs from that life? how then can this be a condition to receive, to have Christ, when Christ is first come, by whom these things; that are called conditions, are afterwards wrought, he himself being present to work them?

So, say I, God bestows Christ upon men to be a way to bring them to the Father; he is an absolute and free gift: there is no other motive that Christ should be any one's saviour, than merely the good pleasure of the Father, the bowels of God himself; "Not for thy sake, but for my own sake; not for thy sake, thou art a rebellious and stubborn people, but for my own sake." Here is the freeness of Christ, to a person coming to him, when be comes merely for God's sake; and God merely upon his good pleasure will do it, because he will; "He hath mercy upon whom he will have mercy, and whom he will, he hardeneth: it is not in him that willeth, (saith Paul, Rom. ix.) nor in him that runneth, but in God that sheweth mercy."

So that Christ becomes a way unto them, not out of their will, not out of their disposition, not out of their holy walkings, but out of that mercy that proceeds out of the mere will of God; his own good pleasure is the only fountain and spring of it. Beloved, I beseech you, seriously ponder and consider, that the gospel is therefore called the gospel, because it is glad tidings unto men; and so the angel interpreted it, "Behold, I bring glad tidings." Why glad. tidings? In this respect glad, the poor sinner, he is a broken creature; nay more, he is a dead creature, "Ye, who were dead in trespasses and sins." That life now is reached out unto such a person, that is a dead person; herein it is plain, that there comes forth that grace from the Lord, that a creature being dead, who can act nothing towards life, yet he shall receive life.

"The time is coming that the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear it, shall live," John v. 25. How come they by life! is there any action of theirs towards life? They are dead; it is the voice of the Son of God puts life into their dead souls; and it is glad tidings, that though the creature can do nothing, (John xv. 5. Isaiah xxvi. 12) yet Christ brings enough with him from the fountain of the Father, to bestow upon them, to bring them to him. To show you a plain scripture, that Christ becomes a way to the Father, merely as a free gift, without any thing in man required, look into Isaiah Iv. 1, "Ho, every one that thirsteth," that is, every one that hath a mind, "come to the waters, he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come and buy wine and milk without money, and without price," saith the prophet; and then he falls upon an objurgation in the next verse; "Wherefore spend ye money for that which is not bread, and labour for that which satisfies not? Eat that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness: incline your ear, hearken, and your soul shall live; I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David?

Here is the closure of all; dost thou thirst, that is, hast thou a mind really to Christ, that Christ should say really to thy soul, I ant thy salvation? It may be thou dost suspect, saying within thyself, Christ is not my portion; I am not fit for Christ; I am a great sinner, I must be holy first: this is bringing a price to Christ; but you must come without money, and without price: and what is this to come without money, and without price? It is nothing but to take the offer (Rev. iii.18. John vii. 37) of Christ, these waters of life, to take them merely and simply as a gift brought, and this is a sure mercy indeed: these are the sure mercies of David, when a man receives the things of Christ, only because Christ gives them; not in regard to any action of ours, as the ground of taking them; I mean, in regard of any action of ours, that we must bring along with us, that must concur that we may partake of this gift. Hosea xiv.

4. Christ speaks there thus to his people, "I will heal their backslidings; I will love them freely;" that is, I will love them for mine own sake. Rom..iii. 23, 94, the apostle speaks excellently concerning this free grace of God bestowed in Christ upon them; "For all have sinned and come short of tho glory of God, being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ." Mark, brethren, first he takes off all creatures, and.all flint a creature can do, "all have sinned and crone short or the glory of God;" then he shows bow we should partake of justification, namely, freely through Christ. Rom. v. The apostle speaks at large concerning the participation of Christ, to be our Christ of mere free gift, where he makes a large comparison of our participation of sin from Adam, and of our participatiou or life from Christ; and still in every passage, speaking of participating of life from and by Christ, he comes in with these expressions of gift, and that it comes freely. Rom. v. 15, "But not as by the transgression of one, so is the free gift; for if through the transgression of one, many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man Christ, hath abounded tmto many."

There is grace, and the gift by grace; so running in this expression in the 17th verse, he saith, "For if by the offence of one, death reigned by one much more they which receive abundance of grace, and of the gift of righteousness, shall reign in life by one Jesus Christ." Still, I say, observe it, that we partake of life in Christ, and by Christ; and it runs altogether upon this strain, that it comes by mere gift.
The writer cannot be looking at certain scriptures and ignoring others. All relevant scriptures show that salvation is a gift which must be accepted via faith. And just because God doesn’t force his sons to accept his gifts, does not make them any less gifts.
 
faith is a choice that we make brought on by the Spirit through the word of God.
 
Re: reply

freedfromdestruction said:
faith is a choice that we make brought on by the Spirit through the word of God.
golfjack said:
Does faith speak? Looking for answers.



May God bless, Golfjack
Paul speaks!

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
 
reply

Is there any reason why I can't speak faith like Paul did or do you think the Bible was only for him?



May God bless, Golfjack
 
Does Paul speak a Gospel message and is Faith part of the Gospel message? (rhetorical questions)

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
 
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