IS FREE WILL AN ATTRIBUTE GOD GIFTED TO MAN?

[Carry_Your_Name]

And God has predestined those people from the beginning.

And none of us could ever know, so how about we stop speculating and live for the Lord, whether our names are really written on the Book of Life or not?

You know, this fatalistic view is verty pessimistic and discouraging, if everything was "predestined", then why do we have to do anything? Why is any missionary work necessary? Why do we have to reach out to unbelievers and preach the gospel - what's the point since they're probably considered as unregenerated pagan? Why don't we just sit on our hands in idleness and watch God do his work?

 

[Fastfredy0]

Re: Eph. 1:4

That's talking about a fixed number of spots for His chosen people, that doesn't specify who's "regenerated" and who's not.

Jacob I loved and Esau I hated before they were born ... there is evidence He picks people and not a fixed number.
The verse says "US" which refers to people and not a number.

I have no idea why you listed random verses after your first statement.

 

[Fastfredy0]

then why do we have to do anything?

...because it's God plan that we participate in the manner He has set for us so as to accomplish His (not our) purpose for His (not our) glory for He does not share His glory with anyone (Job 35:7-8)

Why is any missionary work necessary?

... because God has chose the method

Why do we have to reach out to unbelievers and preach the gospel - what's the point since they're probably considered as unregenerated pagan?

... because God has chose the method .... "no one seeks God" and thus God must seek/chose/predestine/appoint those that will be saved

Why don't we just sit on our hands in idleness and watch God do his work?

... because God ask told us to participate ... He is the potter and we are the clay; not the other way around.
Why do you impose your will upon the Almighty?
Why is your way superior to that chosen by the Almighty?
Why don't you give relevant verses to back up your claim?

The definition of work is something one does for a purpose. Thus, if salvific faith is self-determined (Free Willianism) then your faith is a work. This contradicts scripture that says we are not saved by our works; rather, it says "this is the work of God [not man] that you believe" John 6:29. Gal. 5:2-6 warns that those who believe in salvation by works will be "cut off".

As Free Willians say, "good luck"
As God says, "fortunate predestination"

 

[electedbyhim]

And none of us could ever know, so how about we stop speculating and live for the Lord, whether our names are really written on the Book of Life or not?

You know, this fatalistic view is verty pessimistic and discouraging, if everything was "predestined", then why do we have to do anything? Why is any missionary work necessary? Why do we have to reach out to unbelievers and preach the gospel - what's the point since they're probably considered as unregenerated pagan? Why don't we just sit on our hands in idleness and watch God do his work?

No one knows who the Lords elect are. That is the whole point to preaching His gospel.

What is pessimistic? Explain.

The Sovereignty of God is very misunderstood by so many Christians, if they even know the doctrine.

 

[electedbyhim]

...because it's God plan that we participate in the manner He has set for us so as to accomplish His (not our) purpose for His (not our) glory for He does not share His glory with anyone (Job 35:7-8)


... because God has chose the method


... because God has chose the method .... "no one seeks God" and thus God must seek/chose/predestine/appoint those that will be saved


... because God ask told us to participate ... He is the potter and we are the clay; not the other way around.
Why do you impose your will upon the Almighty?
Why is your way superior to that chosen by the Almighty?
Why don't you give relevant verses to back up your claim?

The definition of work is something one does for a purpose. Thus, if salvific faith is self-determined (Free Willianism) then your faith is a work. This contradicts scripture that says we are not saved by our works; rather, it says "this is the work of God [not man] that you believe" John 6:29. Gal. 5:2-6 warns that those who believe in salvation by works will be "cut off".

As Free Willians say, "good luck"
As God says, "fortunate predestination"

Excellent post.

 

[GodsGrace]

The point is, if you believe you can choose to be saved, you put yourself above God, you make yourself sovereign over the Lord.

I don't understand HOW.
How does my wanting to be saved put me above God?
God wants our salvation,,,this is why Jesus had to die.
So we could decide whether or not to follow Jesus.
God makes the first move by drawing --- all men.

John 5:39-40
39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

John 6:35
35Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger
John 16:8
8“And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness
Hebrews 11:6
...He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him...

Once we decide that we want to follow God's ways, then He puts us in the arms of Jesus.
John 6:37
37“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.


And who goes to the Father?
John 6:45
45“It is written in the prophets, ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

I understand what you are saying. I believe He has done this to make known the riches of His glory.

I don't think so.
I think Jesus had to die to satisfy God for the wrongdoing of Adam who was the federal head of mankind.
I think Jesus had to die to buy us back, to redeem us, from the grips of satan, who had won humanity that day in the Garden when Adam ate the fruit.

The Bible teaches that man has to come to God, we see this in the Bible. The Bible also teaches that man is unable to come to God because of His sin. The Bible also teaches that God's children are chosen, the elect, predestined etc. God's word says that He gives man faith to believe as a gift from Him. Until the Lord does this, unregenerate man cannot come to saving faith in Christ.

Does this make sense?

Well, honestly, it doesn't make sense from the verses that I've quoted above.
Do mine make sense to you?

If man us unable to come to God, why are we told to seek Him throughout the entire bible?
I could post tens of verses, if you need me to. But don't we read the same bible?

Please post some verses where you believe it states that God's children are chosen.
The bible does speak of the elect, which is Israel,
The predestined, which are to service and not unto salvation.

We do agree that salvation is a gift, so is faith, and so is God's grace.
Ephesians 2:8

But it's a gift that we have to receive and open up that box.
I wish you'd read Ephesians 2:8 carefully - it's so easy if you come to it with a "clear" mind, not predetermined.
Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

God' grace, His love for us, has saved us through our faith.
By faith are we saved. We don't have to be saved first...We are saved while still in our sins, through faith.
Romans 5:8

The Trinity, Jesus being fully God and fully human makes no sense to a fallible mind. I take it on faith. This is how I see it.

Well, this I'd have to agree with!

I understand that we all take a view on this. Some go as far as saying that my beliefs in the Doctrines of Grace are heretical and that I am not saved.

I'd never say you're not saved. If doctrine saved us we'd all be in trouble because we all get something or other wrong.
Heretical could be said because you have to understand what heretical means.
It just simply means that a person believes what mainline Christianity does not hold to be true.
Now, if we want to be honest, you'll have to admit that only the reformed believe in TULIP (to make it easy).
No one is lost because of incorrect doctrine, but because they don't believe or do not follow God.

In all honesty I am labeled a Calvinist, but never read anything by Calvin. Although it is on my list.

Get the Institutions of the Christian Religion.
4 volume set.
Volume 3 is the most interesting.
Read one of the Confessions.
Either the Westminster or the 1689 Baptist.
They're practically the same. The modern English version.

However, only the Lord knows my heart and I have a clear conscience on what I believe.

Amen to that.

Grace and peace to you.

And to you.
And I'm enjoying reading your devotionals.
I do admire the reformed for very good preaching.
I don't care for Piper or MacArthur too much,
but Sproul could have ALMOST convinced me.
Almost!

 

[GodsGrace]

...because it's God plan that we participate in the manner He has set for us so as to accomplish His (not our) purpose for His (not our) glory for He does not share His glory with anyone (Job 35:7-8)


... because God has chose the method


... because God has chose the method .... "no one seeks God" and thus God must seek/chose/predestine/appoint those that will be saved


... because God ask told us to participate ... He is the potter and we are the clay; not the other way around.
Why do you impose your will upon the Almighty?
Why is your way superior to that chosen by the Almighty?
Why don't you give relevant verses to back up your claim?

The definition of work is something one does for a purpose. Thus, if salvific faith is self-determined (Free Willianism) then your faith is a work. This contradicts scripture that says we are not saved by our works; rather, it says "this is the work of God [not man] that you believe" John 6:29. Gal. 5:2-6 warns that those who believe in salvation by works will be "cut off".

As Free Willians say, "good luck"
As God says, "fortunate predestination"

IT IS NOT ALLOWED ON THIS SITE TO USE THE TERM FREE WILLIAN.
PLEASE REMEMBER THIS.

 

[GodsGrace]

Excellent post.

So many errors in that post.

 

[GodsGrace]

I cannot agree with that the reformed is nothing but a robot.

If I make sinful decisions, that comes from myself, my flesh. Any good decision I doo comes from Holy Spirit who dwells in me. When I give to the church, I do it for the glory of God. The Lord loves a cheerful giver. I do not look at choices or decisions and say, God made me do this or God made me do that. I do not believe any reformed person believes that. I take personal responsibility for my sinful choices and decisions, I also give God all the glory for the positive good choices I make, it does not come from me but Holy Spirit.

I wonder if that makes any sense.

The difference for me, is that when I was unregenerate, any good I chose was sinful. Why you ask? Because anything that I did or chose to do that was good in the eyes of humans came from a perspective of making myself feel better or happy. It was complete pride when I did anything good. None of it was for the Glory of God. It could never be as an unsaved person.

We're discussing how non-cals believe the reformed are robots.
You don't think so.

How could any decision come from you if you agree that God decrees and predestinates every actions of man?

How could anything be for the glory of God, when it's GOD that decreed that you should do the good action?
How could God be happy with you IF HE predestinated you to do the good action?

God decreeing everything that happens is what makes a person a robot !

 

[GodsGrace]

Creating a theology based on one's tendency is dangerous. One can speculate to a degree, but not pose unsubstantiated or somewhat implied ideas as being fact.

Only 2 verses describe the meaning of the Image of God
Colossians 3:10 and have put on the new [spiritual] self who is being continually renewed in true knowledge in the image of Him who created the new self
Eph. 4:24 and put on the new self [the regenerated and renewed nature], created in God’s image, [godlike] in the righteousness and holiness of the truth"
From these verse we assume that the Image of God refers to: knowledge, righteousness and holiness .... anything else is a blind assumption/wish .... not to mention that the image of God was tarnished by Adam's sin such that now the unregenerate have Satan as their father which is contrary to the Image of God


Gee, should have given your definition and not someone else's ...
.... if that's your definition of Free Will then I believe everyone can "take control of situations" and can take "initative" assuming they are not brain dead. This definition I never heard before and is probably unique to you.
Aside: When most people talk about free will the FREE part refers to the reason(s) why they did X or Y ...

How do YOU take control of any situation when it's God that is determining your every move?

 

[GodsGrace]

I did choose to respond. Your statements lack clarity. Probably you meant to say: "You didn't self-determine (God had nothing to do with your decision) to respond
I can't comment further as your statement is unfounded .... you didn't explain compatibilism correctly.


You can't make this statement based on fact. No one has talked about Libertarian Free Will .... if Libertarian Free Will is what you agree to then you never explained your belief in should a way as to correspond to the definition of Libertarian Free Will. Your definition lack substance ... it is just the definition of one's WILL which you add the idea that it is applicable to morals; a unique position.

Libertarian Free Will is: the ability to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. For the will to be free it must act from a posture of neutrality, with absolutely no bias. It determines its own volitions; so as not to be dependent, in its determinations, on any cause without itself, nor determined by anything prior to its own acts. Indifference and therefore amorality belongs to Liberty in their notion of it, or that the mind, previous to the act of volition, be in equilibrio (equilibrium in uncertainty).

Am not going through this again.
We will agree to disagree on definitions.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think you just did by implication .... *giggle*

You missed the point again. Unless the bible explicitly says what aspects of a human is made in the image of God it is unfounded to pick on an characteristic of God and assume we have the same characteristics. Thus one should not assume we have immutability, free will, that God uses a toilet or whatever.

???

 

[GodsGrace]

And God has predestined those people from the beginning.

WHERE does is state this?
Where does JESUS say this?
Jesus, the last revelation....
Do we trust Him?
Where does HE say this?
Or even Paul for that matter.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Jacob I loved and Esau I hated before they were born ... there is evidence He picks people and not a fixed number.
The verse says "US" which refers to people and not a number.

There’s also evidence that He did pick a fixed number - 144,000 Israelites, 12,000 from each tribe. Also, Israel as a nation is predestined to be God’s chosen people, but not every individual Israelites. In fact, in your example, Jacob and Esau are referring to two nations, not just two individuals. Ruth, a Moabite, a descendant of Esau, was saved, she was one of Jesus’s ancestor; meanwhile most of the Jews, as descendants of Jacob, were cursed to be spiritually blind. So why did God love Ruth, a Moabite, but hated those other Jews? “Us” is still referring to a group of people, not certain individuals. An unprofitable servant’s share can be taken away and given to a profitable servant.

I have no idea why you listed random verses after your first statement.

Those are NOT random. How could a Christian sanctify a pagan spouse if it’s a “done deal”? In this passage, in some cases the pagan spouse can be sanctified and joined into the one flesh Union with Christ, in other cases they’ll reject Christ and leave, looks pretty much like a chance to me.

 

[electedbyhim]

We're discussing how non-cals believe the reformed are robots.
You don't think so.

How could any decision come from you if you agree that God decrees and predestinates every actions of man?

How could anything be for the glory of God, when it's GOD that decreed that you should do the good action?
How could God be happy with you IF HE predestinated you to do the good action?

God decreeing everything that happens is what makes a person a robot !

I understand your concerns.

Before I believed the Reformed teaching, I knew about election, predestination and the like. I have heard many people mention about God making men robots but never thought anything of it.

Now that I fully embrace the Sovereignty of God and the doctrines of grace, I do not see myself at all like a robot.

As I have stated earlier, anything I do good comes from God, all the wrong I do is from self.

I understand this does not make sense to you and does not answer your question. The whole purpose of the existence of Gods people, is to bring Him glory.

God decreeing all things that come to pass, even the lint that falls of my pants, is mind boggling to me. Just like the Trinity and Jesus being fully human and fully God.

The Bible teaches all this, I cannot deny it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

...because it's God plan that we participate in the manner He has set for us so as to accomplish His (not our) purpose for His (not our) glory for He does not share His glory with anyone (Job 35:7-8)


... because God has chose the method


... because God has chose the method .... "no one seeks God" and thus God must seek/chose/predestine/appoint those that will be saved


... because God ask told us to participate ... He is the potter and we are the clay; not the other way around.
Why do you impose your will upon the Almighty?
Why is your way superior to that chosen by the Almighty?
Why don't you give relevant verses to back up your claim?

The definition of work is something one does for a purpose. Thus, if salvific faith is self-determined (Free Willianism) then your faith is a work. This contradicts scripture that says we are not saved by our works; rather, it says "this is the work of God [not man] that you believe" John 6:29. Gal. 5:2-6 warns that those who believe in salvation by works will be "cut off".

As Free Willians say, "good luck"
As God says, "fortunate predestination"

In Is. 38, king Hezekiah was on his deathbed near his end, he was ordered by God to give his will (Is. 38:1); yet he didn’t take it, he prayed fervently, and God extended his life by fifteen years (Is. 38:5) - “I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears. Surely I will add to your days fifteen years.” So how did Hezekiah get to change his “predestination” with his own “work”?

 

[electedbyhim]

WHERE does is state this?
Where does JESUS say this?
Jesus, the last revelation....
Do we trust Him?
Where does HE say this?
Or even Paul for that matter.

Here are just a few out of many.

Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:28-30 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:4-5 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

John 15:16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

 

[GodsGrace]

That sounds like a Debbie Downer full of self pity. That's not the attitude God expects his people to have.

The reformed are not wallowing in self-pity.
Because they believe they're correct ! As we all do.

Also, they believe they're a bit better than the rest of us because they're told that
they are able to accept the real God, which the rest of Christianity cannot accept.

John McArthur says this many times.

Does the following make any sense?
In the first video he speaks about the gospel and faith...
In the second video he says God does it all....
Doesn't that conflict?

And we could discuss the following for weeks:

 

[electedbyhim]

The reformed are not wallowing in self-pity.
Because they believe they're correct ! As we all do.

Also, they believe they're a bit better than the rest of us because they're told that
they are able to accept the real God, which the rest of Christianity cannot accept.

John McArthur says this many times.

Does the following make any sense?
In the first video he speaks about the gospel and faith...
In the second video he says God does it all....
Doesn't that conflict?

And we could discuss the following for weeks:

Also, they believe they're a bit better than the rest of us because they're told that
they are able to accept the real God, which the rest of Christianity cannot accept.

This statement is false.

Things that we do not understand will always rub us the wrong way.

Truth is very hurtful to human pride.

Thanks for posting the videos of Macarthur, he is spot on.

I know what the man teaches. I have been reading his books and listening to his sermons daily for years amongst the other greats.

 

[jasonc]

The reformed don't teach that we are robots .

That said if we all have free will ,well after sin is dealt with ,then we can choose to sin ?

Or is it that we won't because our nature won't even ponder such a choice?