IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[Fastfredy0]

Yes.
Sometimes we decide to disobey God.
This is known as sin...everyone sins.
There is not one person, saved, that does not sin.
If t hey believe they don't sin....they are sinning by thinking this.
1 John

So, in the area of SIN you agree that your will is not free? Something is affecting it ... if so, what is the 'something'?

Thank you for responding, I appreciated it

 

[Avigdor]

Avigdor,

Command is not too strong a word as the Greek uses the imperative, which is a command. The command means it is possible for them to respond, i.e. believe in the Lord Jesus.

In Acts 16:31, πίστευσον is an aorist, active, imperative from πιστεύω. It is a command to 'believe'.

Oz

Even if you want to call it a command, and I don't quible about that, and that means it is possible for them to respond, to that I say ofcourse they are able to respond. They also might have responded by not believing. It does not tell us, nor in any way discuss why they responded with belief instead of unbelief. Their response of belief was because they truly believed not because they decided to believe. It does not tell us why they believed.
Other places in the Bible make the why clear. "My sheep (the ones God has given to Jesus) hear My voice and follow me." That is only one of many.

 

[Avigdor]

At what point in a persons life does this rebirth take place?

Whenever God determines.

 

[GodsGrace]

The Bible clearly tells us that the storms are controlled by God. No oneknows why He directs them where and how and when, but storms are not evil. Sometimes bad things happen because of them, but that is not evil. It is people and things being in the way.

This idea is funny....
People get in the way of storms....
It's a new idea..
You don't think storms are evil?
What does evil mean to you?

They may be necessary for the earth. Who knows. And God can direct or redirect them, as we see often from weather reports. ?? There is science involved in weather, and the science we know (good science i.e physics, biology etc.) is something God has revealed to us, it is still His creation. Certain atmospheric conditions are condusive to storms forming.
The nature we live in suffers because of our fall, in a sense it fell with us, though of course bears no responsibility, as we do.

You say nature bears no responsibility, as we do.
What responsibility do we bear if it's God that predestines everything?

Thanks for addressing my "theory" on evil existing as a necessary opposite. Truthfully I had not heard it before and in my head it was my own reasoning. I was beginning to think it must be too stupid to discuss. ?

You're not the only one that believes evil is the absence of good.
Some theologians believe this.

 

[GodsGrace]

W
My problem with this statement is that I can see that you do not understand what Calvinisim/Reformed teaches, that you are defining certain things i.e God chooses for no reason at all and that it teaches that God created evil, from your view of what the words used are saying. In effect, trying to put yourself inside someone elses head. Sorry, that didn't sound very nice but I meant no harm.
And in the last couple of days Piper is being quoted as your proof and Oz's, (and he indeed make that statement), as though he is the end all of Reformed teaching. For one, I disagree with that statement, and for another there are different denominations that have appropriated elements of Reformed Theology and added and subtracted. I understand Piper was Baptist. My beliefs are more in line with the Presbyterian, as outlined in the Westminster confession, which is not a final authority I know and I don't treat it like one. Don't think I have ever quoted from it. But it does give a precision overview of the Reformed interpretation of the Bible.
In my opinion, someone who is not a Calvinist, and especially someone who deeply dislikes it, is not qualified to explain it to me. And certainly not to determine whether I am one or not, and that any disagreement I have with their understanding of it means I am not. And that they need to tell me that. Set me straight. What does it matter?

P.S. I must not be getting all my alerts as I found this post that I know I have never seen, by accident, on my way to post 265. I will now continue in that direction.

If you don't agree with Piper....
You don't agree with calvinism.

I, or anyone else on this thread, cannot be expected to know what the W.C. states.

Let's try to stick to biblical verses so we don't encounter this problem again.
I'm also guilty as charged.

 

[Avigdor]

If evil is created by God then it has to come from WITHIN Him.
It would have to be something HE specifically put into affect, whatever the reason may be.
If God allowed sin...then it would mean that it comes from OUTSIDE Him but that, for whatever reason, He allows it.

Right. We all agree no sin exists in God therefore He couldn't create it. He allows it because that is what we now have to deal with since Adam and Eve sinned, and through them it came into us and our world. Sin by its nature is destructive and this world now needs to be redeemed, restored, from sin. First the redeemed of the Lord, then the earth. It is that up,down thing. I almost hate bringing up the phrase free will again, but Adam and Eve had absolute free will. They did not have sin dwelling in them. They invited it in. Our will is not as free as theirs was in this matter. We don't sin all the time, but we will always sin.
Have you ever read any of Arthur Pinks books on Adam being the federal head of humanity (as he goes so go the rest of us), and Jesus the federal head of the redeemed? A bit hard to read because of the old language, but interesting. Jesus had absolute free will too, as son of man, but did not sin. His not sinning, His righteousness is imputed to us. I'm not saying these things because I think you don't know them, as I know you do. I'm just chattering.

 

[Avigdor]

The fact that we can sin proves that we ARE free to do as we wish.

Yes, we can do what we wish. But, unregenerate, do we wish to serve and worship God?

 

[Avigdor]

Aligning our will to His will is compatible free will and something I believe @avigdon does not understand and keeps telling me I don't understand it. Perhaps YOU could explain to her better than I can so she could stop at me??!

This didn't show up in my alerts because it is Avigdor. I do understand compatible free will and don't recall saying you didn't. Sorry I have been beating you over the head? with it. Hope you don't have a headache. 2

 

[GodsGrace]

Thanks for the link. Could you tell me at what time in the video that Piper said "GOD CREATED EVIL". It seems unlikely that it happened. I listened to the video and did not catch it.

Forget the video,,,,the written article (of what he said) is right underneath it.


Has God predetermined every tiny detail in the universe, such as dust particles in the air and all of our besetting sins?

Yes.

(reply by Piper)

source: https://www.desiringgod.org/intervi...ery-tiny-detail-in-the-universe-including-sin

I actually Laughed Out Loud ... thx
You have to be careful. Perhaps Avigdor doesn't agree with Calvinism stating Jesus rose again.
Hey, but seriously, I don't agree with all the is in the Westminster Confession which is basically Calvinism.

Your welcome.

LOL

You know,,,,I keep being told I don't understand Calvinism....by you know who.
I think I understand it pretty darn well...
But there are some that accept part of it and so it becomes difficult to know what each
person believes.

Agreed. Perhaps I will take a different tactic and Avigdor alluded to this in her UP and DOWN analogy. Perhaps EVIL DOES NOT EXIST. Yeah, I know you spit out your coffee on the computer screen as you read this ... but hear me out. I responded today to OZ on this with a long quote from Augustine and an explanation. Keep an open mind. I can't prove EVIL DOES NOT EXIST ... but with an open mind, hopefully after reading Augustine ... maybe you can say, "Well, I don't think so ... but I can't prove it is wrong". Others of note have given credence to this idea...agreed, doesn't make it right.

1. Actually laughed. Thx.
2. I don't drink coffee much.
3. And not spitting anything on my computer .... Don't care to spend moolah for another one!
4. Augustine....Augustine....Oh where art thou, Augustine?

Gosh I don't like Augustine.
Also, we're getting into discussing ANOTHER HUMAN!
Augsutine and Calvin were two really big brains....
But Augustine ruined Christianity back when, IMHO.
And Calvin came up with some ideas NO ONE had ever thought of before.
Were all those other theologians wrong??

Anyway, I do believe that evil is a real, live being....it's called satan.
I believe all evil comes from satan.
Don't know why or why God ALLOWS it,,,but that's what I think.
Some think there is no evil and that it's the absence of good.
I'm not climbing the hill on this one.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Aligning our will to His will is compatible free will and something I believe @avigdon does not understand and keeps telling me I don't understand it. Perhaps YOU could explain to her better than I can so she could stop at me??!

I've found Avigdon's ideas to be very much in line with Reform doctrine and she expresses herself very well. Like you, she is well informed.
I would need a specific quote to comment further.

First it states God predestined EVERYTHING...
Then it says that He is not responsible for sin.
HOW COULD THAT BE??

It can be true as it is scriptural. But, I suppose you want a more humanly acceptable answer. (Aside: my default position would be to side with you ... lol ... doesn't seem fair)

You probably know this but, here goes...
You are responsible because you were born in sin (Psalm 51:5) and therefore have a sin nature so, despite what "free will" people say, you cannot help but sinning because you are NOT free (Total Depravity) ... you are a slave to sin (Romans 6). It is our nature to sin. Since you sin you are responsible.
Now, like me, you probably think ... this is a rip-off. I have no opportunity to be sinless, I was born with it (ergo, there goes "free will" because I didn't chose this). So you are responsible because you were born in Adam by imputation. (aside: Adam, you suck) It's like you were born an U.S. citizen and are responsible to U.S. law despite having no choice. Your parent chose for you.
Now, deeper into the question .... why did, in reform's opinion, God decide to set Adam up knowing he would fail. I answered by quoting Calvin, that was in a post to OZ .. post 329 ... difficult question beyond my pay grade. Maybe the answer is in Romans 9 ... your are the clay and I am the Potter, what right do you have to even question me (same answer basically given to Job in chapter 38 and 39. Maybe he did it to show his glory in displays of mercy, grace. In reform doctrine the purpose of God is the following: God purpose and man’s purpose are one and the same: to glorify God and enjoy himself forever.

Aside: There great advantage/wisdom to God's planning everything and executing His plan. That way everything goes the way the all-wise person thinks it should go; rather than letting us idiots randomly determine events and God try to pick up the pieces. From a reform perspective we know the Father is taking care of EVERY DETAIL for His children/sheep (not so much the goats). From a 'free will' perspective I have no idea how "we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. "

And what about Piper?
You don't agree with him when he clearly states that God is responsible for all evil?
(you never did reply to my links).

I think I replied ... maybe I missed something. I asked for time of video when Piper said God is Responsible for evil. I am suspicious he didn't say that; rather, you draw that conclusion from other related statements.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well I am a Christian. Not sure why what you believe is determined to be regular, and Reformed is what? irregular. There was actually a time when the free will issue you believe was classified as heresy. Just joking.
I will suggest that you think I am between two beliefs systems because the extent of your knowledge of Calvinisim involves only the free will issue, which in turn, the creation of evil etc., the things we have been discussing. Those issues are a very small part of the theology and the other things, those things that involve salvation, are the same.

By regular Christianity I mean this:

Every other denomination believes basically the same.
Maybe they don't agree on eternal security...
or maybe they don't agree on a verse's meaning.
Some don't believe we go straight to heaven.

But the reformed believe very different doctrine.
No one believes God predestines anything...only the reformed.
Every denomination believes in free will except those that are reformed in nature.
etc.

As to my speaking about free will....
that's the topic at hand.

Want to change?
Go ahead. I'm ready.

 

[GodsGrace]

Question: Why are you saved and not the person next to you (who doesn't believe) saved? Is it not because of something you did; specifically, you 'free will' decision to believe in the death and resurrection .... ?

You, by definition, believe in synergism (the position of those who hold that salvation involves some form of cooperation between divine grace and human freedom).

Synergism (your belief system) comes from a combination of the Greek terms for “cooperating” and “energy.” Put together, they mean “a combined force.” When applied to salvation, the term synergism implies that salvation is accomplished through the combined act of God and man. This contrasts with the term monergism (reformed), which comes from Greek terms for “one” and “energy” and means “a single force.” Monergism suggests God is entirely, completely, and solely responsible for any person’s salvation.

The results of your philosophy, as I understand it is .... Jesus dies for everyone without exception; but this death in and of itself saved no one. It is only by your co-operation (faith) with Christ's efforts that you are saved. Consequently, Jesus died in vain for those that don't believe... even those unbelievers that had already died. Jesus, the high priest, is in heaven and offer his blood for everyone without exception and, as part of His priestly duties, intercedes for everyone without exception. This sacrifice and intercession is in vain, according to synergistic doctrine, for those who do not co-operate via demonstrating faith in God.

These are some of the consequences of synergism. Imagine, the Son of God offering a sacrifice and interceding to the Father on everyone behalf of everyone and the Father in affect saying, "Sorry, my hands are tied, I ceded my sovereignty in this area to depraved mortals ... each person must believe in me of his own free will before I will accept your sacrifice for them. (Christ and the Father are of the same essence so I don't know why Christ would sacrifice/intercede and the Father would not respond according to Christ's intercession)

I have to eat lunch ... apologies for any posts I missed responding to .... getting messy in here ... fun though ....
.... wonders if there is a verse saying God is Reformed ... j/k

No such verse!
Almost 11 pm h ere.
Above is a good post and it requires time.
I do believe in synergism BTW, of course.
The asnwer to why I believe and not someone else is in Acts 28 (I think) but I'm too tired right now.

Domani.

 

[Avigdor]

If you don't agree with Piper....
You don't agree with calvinism.

I respectfully disagree with that conclusion. Not all Calvinist believe all the exact same thing as people tend to weigh things and make up their own minds. If I didn't primarily believe Reformation theology but I said one thing that aligned with their teachings, would you tell me I was Reformed? Does believing some of the things the RC teaches, does that make you a Catholic. You say you are protestant, but you believe some of what the Catholics teach, should I tell you then that you are not protestant? That is the only point I am trying to make here.
When I was first investigating Reformed, I read a lot of John MacArthur. When a person reads his books and the text notes (mostly) in his study Bible it would seem like he was a Calvinist. I agreed with much of what he said. But in one of his books he stated that he was a dispensationelist. Something I heartily disagree with. We shouldn't make a pronouncement on what someone else should call themselves or what they are.

 

[Avigdor]

By regular Christianity I mean this:

Every other denomination believes basically the same.
Maybe they don't agree on eternal security...
or maybe they don't agree on a verse's meaning.
Some don't believe we go straight to heaven.

But the reformed believe very different doctrine.
No one believes God predestines anything...only the reformed.
Every denomination believes in free will except those that are reformed in nature.
etc.

As to my speaking about free will....
that's the topic at hand.

Want to change?
Go ahead. I'm ready.

I did know what you meant. It is not a set of entirely different doctrines though, just mainly that is the only different one. And an aside as our friend Fred would say (Ilike that word) The fact that most people believe the same thing is not proof of its validity.

I was about to ask if you would start a new thread, since you always start such good ones. I will if I come up with something I think would be interesting. This one has about worn itself out!

 

[Fastfredy0]

I just can't agree that God could be:
LOVE
MERCY
JUSTICE
and not give to each one of us the possibility of becoming saved to be with Him.

Well, maybe it's not about us (anthropocentric); but about God (theocentric). Maybe it is about God's glory and not ours.

Everyone believes we are born depraved.
But we have the ability to go to God....I've quoted several verses.

I responded I believe and got no counter response. I summarized your arguments as follows:
Proposition 1: God wouldn't ask we to do something if it was not possible
Response: I gave example where He did (Love my with all your heart, soul ...

Proposition 2: You must believe
Response: Agreed. But that doesn't answer the question of who causes you to believe; God or yourself. This was followed by 20 verses saying you are incapable of believing plus 7ish other general reason why faith comes from God .... seeing as you were understandably on OVERLOAD with the first 20 total depravity verses and the 7ish source of faith verses ... I decided not to expand the other topic and 100+ verses supporting those topics.

We still should go over that long post of yours from about a week ago.
It's still on my desk.

Ah, that's OK. They have gone stale. LOL That list is only a 1/10 of what I have. Granted, you put up a good fight.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Thanks for addressing my "theory" on evil existing as a necessary opposite. Truthfully I had not heard it before and in my head it was my own reasoning.

Wow ... better than I could do. Your getting up there with the greats like Augustine and Stephen Charnock who had similar leanings.

 

[Fastfredy0]

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, Ephesians 1:11

The word Sovereign is not found in this verse.

Granted, the word "sovereign is not in the verse. I don't think this is a precondition for my defining sovereign.
Anyways, a phrase analogous to sovereign is in the verse.
Sovereign = "purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will" = total control of others

It is like a dictionary. When they define a word they do not use the word, but something analogous.
Dictionary definition Sovereign: a supreme ruler, especially a monarch .... words in Eph. 1:11 ... Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will... this is what a sovereign does, he controls things to go the way he wants them. The verse says God controls everything the way he wants them. Everything sound a lot like SUPREME of the dictionary and includes controlling people which the dictionary use the word RULER with RULER of people implied

 

[Avigdor]

Wow ... better than I could do. Your getting up there with the greats like Augustine and Stephen Charnock who had similar leanings.

Far from that I'm afraid but thanks.

 

[Fastfredy0]

THIS is the work of God....that you believe in Him whom He has sent.

So from just the above sentence...what would you say is the work of God?

Yes. Jesus states the "this is the work of God" ... followed by a ":" indicating a list and the list contains "that you believe".
I defined work from the dictionary. If faith comes from oneself, then you are performing a work. I would be interested in your dictionary definition of work and how you figure "free will" faith is not a work. How you figure that you are saved and the unbeliever is not saved because of what you had to do (believe) and yet not save it is a work.

You're adding to scripture. Nowhere does it say that God gives them faith.
What verse would that be?

My bad ... I didn't mean to make my comment look like part of the scripture. I will try to be more careful.

In my way,,,which is the way of ALL of Christianity - even the Catholic church believes this - we do NOTHING to be saved except we are to BELIEVE in God.

AH, you made me laugh aloud again. You have the Holy Father the pope on your side.

and THIS is the will of the Father:
EVERYONE WHO BEHOLDS THE SON AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.
Verse 40

Agreed. We been here before. Your bias has you insert the though that because God wants "X" the you must be capable of "X" on your own. I think everyone the beholds the son and believes has eternal life too. I think it is because the Spirit inserted faith. You think you did it (though somehow this is not a work). I can see the verse does not answer as to the source of faith. I can put away my bias, you cannot. (IMO)

§Where does it state that God "inserts" faith into us?

I gave you 6 or 7 verses. I think I have 45 all told; some more salient than others.
I also gave you 3 of 5 verses where God gives you repentance (part of conversion).
I could give you 45 verses showing it is God will whether or not we are saved; some more salient than others.
I could give you many verses showing God's wisdom, freedom, independance, sufficiency, glory, grace, knowledge, perfection, immutability have grave problems if your "free will" be true
I could show the 5 or 6 metaphor concerning salvation don't fit 'free will' ... I.E. born again ... you can't birth yourself, someone has to do the work
Verse about God's Call, God's choosing,.. on and on

I summarized your few verses.... God say to do "X" so it must be possible to do "X", etc.
surprised you haven't use the GOD LOVES EVERYONE and THIS IS ONLY FAIR

Still haven't seen why you, an American, are living in ITaly.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I am at post 359. I think I caught up. If I missed something, I apologize.

Thanks for being patient with me.

I going for a short jet-ski ride.