IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[SovereignGrace]

Is it these teachings that led you to believe it was God’s will for Adam to disobey Him, and thereby poison all mankind with sin?



JLB

Brother, nothing happens outside of God's will. The cross was not 'Plan B'. If the fall of Adam was not part of God's decreed will, then when they rebelled, then the cross did in fact, become 'Plan B'.

Now, God uses causes to fulfill His decreed will. Primary causes are causes that God actually does to accomplish His decreed will. Look at the crucifixion for instance. God was the One who decreed it to happen. God used fallen men who hated Jesus to crucify His Son. He used their hatred of His Son to crucify Him. He did not force them to do this, they freely did what they did out of hatred of Jesus.

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.[Acts 2:23]

He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?[Romans 8:32]

Both of these verses plainly stated that it was God who delivered Jesus over into their hands. God was the One driving this event. This is primary cause in fulfilling His decreed will.


In the Garden, who was the One who put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden? God. The one thing that would plunge them, and conversely us and all mankind, into sin and death, God planted it there. Also, Satan gained access in there when all God had to do was stop him in his tracks and not allow him to be there to tempt them. Yet, He used Satan and the Tree of Knowledge to fulfill His decreed will. This is secondary cause in God fulfilling His decreed will.

 

[JLB]

Brother, nothing happens outside of God's will. The cross was not 'Plan B'. If the fall of Adam was not part of God's decreed will, then when they rebelled, then the cross did in fact, become 'Plan B'.

Now, God uses causes to fulfill His decreed will. Primary causes are causes that God actually does to accomplish His decreed will. Look at the crucifixion for instance. God was the One who decreed it to happen. God used fallen men who hated Jesus to crucify His Son. He used their hatred of His Son to crucify Him. He did not force them to do this, they freely did what they did out of hatred of Jesus.

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.[Acts 2:23]

He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?[Romans 8:32]

Both of these verses plainly stated that it was God who delivered Jesus over into their hands. God was the One driving this event. This is primary cause in fulfilling His decreed will.


In the Garden, who was the One who put the Tree of Knowledge in the Garden? God. The one thing that would plunge them, and conversely us and all mankind, into sin and death, God planted it there. Also, Satan gained access in there when all God had to do was stop him in his tracks and not allow him to be there to tempt them. Yet, He used Satan and the Tree of Knowledge to fulfill His decreed will. This is secondary cause in God fulfilling His decreed will.

Do you believe man has a choice in whom he will obey?

 

[JLB]

Brother, nothing happens outside of God's will.

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9


Do you believe it’s God‘s will that some will perish and go to hell.


JLB

 

[SovereignGrace]

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9


Do you believe it’s God‘s will that some will perish and go to hell.


JLB

Yes. Let me explain. When reading 2 Peter 3:9, the “toward us” is directed to believers. Peter‘s letter is addressed to Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:[2 Peter 1:1] He is not willing any believer perish. That’s the context of that verse. I will show you another place that uses that same language.

“What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.”[Matthew 18:12-14]

Notice the shepherd goes hunting for his sheep. The shepherd is a shepherd of sheep, not a goat herder. He actively pursues his sheep. And when he finds it, he brings it back to the sheep fold. That is how God saves His sheep. God calls His sheep by name(showing an intimate, loving relationship with His sheep) as He seeks and finds them. Now, He uses means to accomplish His will that none of His sheep die lost. The means is His ppl reaching His lost sheep via the gospel. Ppl have this idea that God calls and then we come to Him. Not so. The Bible says none seek God[Romans 3:11]. What He does is not only calls His sheep but seeks them out as He calls them. That’s where the Great Commission comes in. We are to go out and preach the gospel to everyone. He uses the gospel to save His lost sheep.


Now, election deals with saving ppl. When Adam sinned and fell, the whole human race fell, being in Adam. He was the federal head of all his posterity. Election is God choosing a number of God-hating ppl to give to His Son to atone for their sins. There was nothing special in His sheep(elect) that the goats(non-elect) were missing. Conversely, the non-elect were not more wicked than the elect. In other words, God’s election was not based on anything that Adam‘s posterity had or didn’t have. God, in His grace and mercy, chose to save the elect and justly leave the non-elect in their already condemned state.

Remember, grace is unmerited favor, so the elect didn’t do something the non-elect did, the elect didn’t love God more than the non-elect did, the elect didn’t have softer hearts than the non-elect had. God chose the elect based upon Himself.

God wasn’t obligated to save any to begin with. All God would have had to do was not send His Son to die and all would be justly condemned to hell. But ppl look at election as a bad thing. Not so. Without it, none would be saved.

“God gives grace to the elect and justice to the non-elect. God gives injustice to no one.” Paraphrase of a Dr. RC Sproul quote.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Do you believe man has a choice in whom he will obey?

Ppl make choices every day. What clothes to wear, what to eat, where to go, &c. It’s not so much about choices as it is what is driving those choices. The lost man chooses to not obey God. Why? He hates Him, is at enmity with Him, wants nothing to do with serving Him. This is found in Romans 8:5-9. It is only after God quickens the dead in sins sinner that he can choose Him. Satan has him bound and he can’t choose God because he can’t even comprehend the word of God[1 Corinthians 2:14]. His mind is blinded by Satan as well[2 Corinthians 4:4]. That’s why we teach God must first quicken them. By quickening them, He frees them from Satan’s clutches, opens their eyes, ears and mind. Then, and only then, can they choose Him.

”and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.”[John 5:40]

Jesus said this to the Jews who earlier had confronted a blind man He had healed and was carrying his bed. Notice that God was not holding His hand forth and keeping them back, keeping them from believing. God does not do this to anyone. Granted, He has hardened hearts, but He does not pour fresh evil in their hearts to keep them from believing. The reason why they were unwilling to come to Him was they hated Him. Their hearts were cold as a stone. Only after God does a heart transplant[Ezekiel 11:19 & Ezekiel 36:26] can they freely choose Him. He has to set them free from Satan first.

 

[SovereignGrace]

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9


Do you believe it’s God‘s will that some will perish and go to hell.


JLB

I‘m going to be repeating myself somewhat in places as I want to make it perfectly clear my beliefs as I have learned from the Bible, so please forgive me.

When Adam sinned and fell in the Garden, everyone of us fell, being in Adam. This is called federal headship. Now, God could have done nothing and left us in this state to die. And on the day of judgment cast us headlong into hell and He would have been just to do so. Him being just is not to be conflated with fairness. Him being just is doing the right thing, punish the lost. Trust me, none of us want Him to be fair. We want Him to be merciful.

It was out of Adam‘s fallen posterity He chose a number no man can number(many who disagree with election say election deals with only a few when that’s not true), gave them to the Son the redeem.

God, in mercy, grace, and love, elected ppl who deserved to be punished in hell. Yet, He saved them by sending His Son to be their Surety.

 

[OzSpen]

Yes. Let me explain. When reading 2 Peter 3:9, the “toward us” is directed to believers. Peter‘s letter is addressed to Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:[2 Peter 1:1] He is not willing any believer perish. That’s the context of that verse. I will show you another place that uses that same language.

SG,

Second Peter is not 'addressed to Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ'. It is written by 'Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ'.

You stated:

He is not willing any believer perish. That’s the context of that verse.

That is not what the context states.

Let's look at the context of 2 Peter 3:

3 knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. 4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgement and destruction of the ungodly.​

​

8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow to fulfil his promise as some count slowness, but is patient towards you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies[b] will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed (2 Peter 3:7-10 ESV).​

Your S-T-R-E-T-C-H to make it mean reference to 'believers' is false as the context makes clear.

The latter part of 2 Peter 3:9 in the Greek NT states: μὴ βουλόμενός τινας ἀπολέσθαι ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν χωρῆσαι

μὴ βουλόμενός = me boulomenos = [God does] not wish, will, desire; to choose, determine, plan. It's a present tense participle, so it means God continues to desire repentance from these scoffers.

τις (tinas/tis) is an accusative plural masculine noun that in the singular means: one, anyone, anything; some, someone, something. It does not mean 'any believers'. So, in the plural it means any people/ones from the human race.

ἀλλὰ πάντας εἰς μετάνοιαν = alla pantas eis metanoian. Pantas means 'all, every (thing, one), whole; always'. It's an accusative, masculine, plural noun.

Therefore, your wanting to make 2 Peter 3:9 refer to 'he is not willing any believer perish' does not hold up when examined in the light of Greek exegesis.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Sorry bro, all the lexicon gymnastics in the world won't change the meaning of the plain, straightforward truth.


The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

• not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The scripture plainly says God is not willing that any should perish.

Why is that so complicated for you to understand?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
John 3:16


Who is excluded from the world?


I do find a consistent pattern with those who hold to Calvinism.


The foundation of your theology is based on denying what the scriptures so plainly say.



JLB

JLB,

I agree with you entirely. There was nothing in what I wrote (that you quoted) that contradicts your conclusion - nothing!

By the way, I do not support Calvinistic soteriology.

Oz

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

From my studies free will is only be free in the sense of God's omnicence.
God has been all knowing since before the creation of us or time, and
will continue past the end of time called eternity.
Sometimes people try to put God in a box and in their mind limit God's abilities, when they are limitless.

I think it's just hard to imagine for some, so it's their way of understanding God until their grow to a place where they Know more about God and start letting Him be more of who He is in their own mind.

God bless all here.
My name is OLIGOS

 

[JLB]

JLB,

I agree with you entirely. There was nothing in what I wrote (that you quoted) that contradicts your conclusion - nothing!

By the way, I do not support Calvinistic soteriology.

Oz

Sorry bro, my bad.



JLB