IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[OzSpen]

The short answer is no. There are plenty of places where it tells us that believing is salvation, but I think that anyone would be hard pressed to definitively prove it is a command. Proof. Not bias.

Avigdor,

Take a read of Acts 16:31. What were the jailer and his household commanded to do?

Oz

 

[Avigdor]

Avigdor,

Take a read of Acts 16:31. What were the jailer and his household commanded to do?

Oz

Oz
I absolutely see where that could be read as a command. Though command is too strong a word. He is telling them that they must believe in order to be saved. They hadn't as yet even told him what it was he was to believe. They then preached to him the word of the Lord, the Gospel of Jesus I presume. And he believed. He heard it and he believed it. He wasn't obeying a command, he really believed. This doesn't sound like a command and obedience to me. It sounds like someone heard something and believed it, not by choosing to believe it. Why did he believe it?

 

[OzSpen]

Ok.


Sorry you feel that way.


I just believe you can do better than to say to someone who has taken the time to present scriptures to you, and explain his perspective from those examples of scripture....
“RC Sproul disagrees with you.“

Your better than that.

JLB

JLB,

RC Sproul demonstrated from Scripture that Prov 16:33 refers to the sovereignty of God: 'The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord' (Prov 16:33 NIV).

The casting of lots was a way to find God's will (sounds like sovereignty to me) - Lev 16:8ff; Judg 1:3; 1 Sam 14:41ff; Isa 34:17; Jonah 1:7; Acts 1:26.

The principle for the Israelites and disciples (Acts) was that people do not control what God does. The term, 'lap', is used to refer to a fold in a garment where opposing lots were carried. It was used for the Urim & Thummim.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Oz
I absolutely see where that could be read as a command. Though command is too strong a word. He is telling them that they must believe in order to be saved. They hadn't as yet even told him what it was he was to believe. They then preached to him the word of the Lord, the Gospel of Jesus I presume. And he believed. He heard it and he believed it. He wasn't obeying a command, he really believed. This doesn't sound like a command and obedience to me. It sounds like someone heard something and believed it, not by choosing to believe it. Why did he believe it?

Avigdor,

Command is not too strong a word as the Greek uses the imperative, which is a command. The command means it is possible for them to respond, i.e. believe in the Lord Jesus.

In Acts 16:31, πίστευσον is an aorist, active, imperative from πιστεύω. It is a command to 'believe'.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Seems like the other side (non-reform) is using evil as a cudgel.

Prefer to bypass theodicies ... but

Reformed Side
We believe God, as Piper said or something close to what he said, controls everything down to the specs of dust. This is to fullfill his decree (plan) as to how everything will occur. I think it is close to determinism. The label is compatibilism which seems similar to determinism, except God (first cause) gets us (second cause) to do as He planned (guess God is eternal so he has not time tenses, but I digress) by making our wills to align with His decree. But, as I have stated many, many times ... and quoted two reformed confessions ... "God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein". In other words, God does not create sin... he does 'allow' sin.
I see where you are coming from when you believe that because God planned something, he must have created something. Theodicy (the vindication of divine goodness and providence in view of the existence of evil) is difficult for both sides to explain. R.C. Sproul said NO ONE HAS DONE IT YET.

Non-Reformed Side (IMO)
You have the same problem with understanding the existence of evil as the reformed side. You don't know where it came from and you don't know who controls it. You don't know why God allowed it. Yeah, Satan controls it, but who controls Satan (Satan is a created being so not like he is First Cause of evil).

Only difference in this discussion is the reformed side isn't weaponizing the existence of evil in our arguments.

LOL... I am never going to catch up to all these posts ... luckily, I don't have a life (wink)

Fred,

In your Reformed view, does God cause everything, including moral evil?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I prefer to defend the Westminster Confession or London Baptist Confession of the subject. I pointed out that both say GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF SIN

Fred,

Please help me understand better your view of the origin of sin. Who caused the great tsunami in the Indian Ocean of 2004?

Oz

 

[GodsGrace]

I can sort of see how you reach that conclusion but there is something faulty about. I'll see if I can pin point it and put it into words. He may have predestined that evil things happen, (in fact I don't think evil is created. Go into that in a bit.), and then is also allowing it, but that does not equal God creating evil. Anyway, if there is evil (which there is) and if it is created as you say, and we don't or don't want to ascribe that to God, then who created it? Is there another creator.
Evil does not exist in God so He could not create it. As for predestining evil or allowing it, the difference is small, allowing it would make Him just as responsible as predestining it.

As I've said in other posts and not just here, the problem of evil is a big problem for Christianity.
If I believed God created evil,,,for whatever reason,,,,I would NOT be able to worship that god.
We don't know why we have evil. No one knows.
As to creating it and allowing it,,,,I do believe there is a big difference.
If evil is created by God then it has to come from WITHIN Him.
It would have to be something HE specifically put into affect, whatever the reason may be.
If God allowed sin...then it would mean that it comes from OUTSIDE Him but that, for whatever reason, He allows it.

Although I believe the difference above is a big difference,
I will agree with you that when you get to the bottom line...it's the same for us.
We have to deal with it no matter what.
And why is the bottom line the same?
Because if God is an ALL GOOD God
and He is an OMNIPOTENT God....
then why doesn't He just stop the evil even if He didn't create it?
THIS is the big problem that Christianity cannot answer or resolve.

Since there is only One Creator, and since there is no evil in God therefore He couldn't create it, evil must not be a creation.
I went over this in a post to Oz. Everthing of necessity has its opposite or neither exist. Maybe not everything, I would have to think about that more than I want to, but my illustrations should prove my point. If you have an up, there is of necessity a down, otherwise there would not be an up or a down. If you have a front, of necessity there is a back. If you have good, there is of necessity, evil. Holy, unholy etc. Evil isn't a creation anymore than good is. Good comes from God because it a part of Him. Evil is the "other side of that coin" which we (Adam and Eve) took into ourselves when are of the knowledge of good and evil. Ofcourse it exists in our world.

Yes, this is a common argument for evil....that it is the opposite of good.
But how does this answer the question of hurricanes?
Why are there hurricanes?

Your theory (and not only yours) would resolve the problem of MORAL EVIL. IOW,,, If we're not doing something good, by necessity we're doing something bad. OK.

But how does that resolve NATURAL EVIL....or the evil we see in things we cannot control.
For nistance: The wind. It could be a balmy wind...or it could be a hurricane.
The balmy wind is pleasant and good....
but WE had nothing to do with the wind speeding up and becoming a hurricane.
HOW did THAT happen?

Romans 8 tells us that all of creation is waiting to be redeemed.
All of creation has been affected by Adam's sin.

Calvinist say God predestines things that are evil, not that He creates that evil, or causes it to happen. Think of this:The Jewish leaders turned Jesus over to Pilate to be crucified. A very evil act. Yet it is exactly what was a part of OT prophecy, exactly what God predestined to happen. But God did not make those men evil. It was their own evil plan, therefore they are responsible to God for their actions, even though it accomplished His purpose and was predestined by Him. Of course in this case, you would probably call that justice.

John Piper always brings up the crucifixion when attempting to explain evil.
But he also says that God DID create everything,,,including evil.

You say you don't agree with all of Calvinism so I have to respect that...
but THIS is what calvinism teaches. Perhaps Fastfredy0 would like to comment on this.
I'm told I'm not representing calvinism at times....however, this is what calvinists state.

Has God predetermined every tiny detail in the universe, such as dust particles in the air and all of our besetting sins?

Yes. [John Piper]

source. https://www.desiringgod.org/intervi...ery-tiny-detail-in-the-universe-including-sin

 

[GodsGrace]

you did. You asked isn't the good news that we have a chance to save ourselves. Maybe you didn't mean it like that. Don't know post # and am not going back, but my post must have quoted yours.

I answered this A...you must be missing some of my posts.
Will look for my reply....I absolutely do not believe we save ourselves!!

See post 281.

 

[GodsGrace]

It would prove, in my mind, that you can demonstrate the ability to overcome your sin nature; thus, convincing me that "free will" exists. That is my logic (seems to follow).

To ask you a question, if you are truly "free" to decide what to do, why wouldn't you be able to stop sinning?

The fact that we can sin proves that we ARE free to do as we wish.

But I believe I already replied to the above post of yours.
Something else came to mind.
When we become born from above, we become TRULY free.
I came to understand this at some point......
Before we are born again satan has a hold on us and we see things differently.
After salvation, we see the light more...we see God and the good .... we become freed from
the grip of satan and are made truly free.

If Jesus has made us free,,,
we are free indeed.

 

[Avigdor]

I answered this A...you must be missing some of my posts.
Will look for my reply....I absolutely do not believe we save ourselves!!

See post 281.

W
I saw your answer and answered. Something must be messed up. I figured it was just the way you said it from other things you post, but wanted to make sure.

 

[GodsGrace]

Seems like the other side (non-reform) is using evil as a cudgel.

Prefer to bypass theodicies ... but

Reformed Side
We believe God, as Piper said or something close to what he said, controls everything down to the specs of dust. This is to fullfill his decree (plan) as to how everything will occur. I think it is close to determinism. The label is compatibilism which seems similar to determinism, except God (first cause) gets us (second cause) to do as He planned (guess God is eternal so he has not time tenses, but I digress) by making our wills to align with His decree. But, as I have stated many, many times ... and quoted two reformed confessions ... "God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein". In other words, God does not create sin... he does 'allow' sin.
I see where you are coming from when you believe that because God planned something, he must have created something. Theodicy (the vindication of divine goodness and providence in view of the existence of evil) is difficult for both sides to explain. R.C. Sproul said NO ONE HAS DONE IT YET.

Agreed 100% re the problem of evil.
I considered dualism at some point....but that has to be discarded or God is NOT sovereign....and we know He is.

Aligning our will to His will is compatible free will and something I believe @avigdon does not understand and keeps telling me I don't understand it. Perhaps YOU could explain to her better than I can so she could stop at me??!

Non-Reformed Side (IMO)
You have the same problem with understanding the existence of evil as the reformed side. You don't know where it came from and you don't know who controls it. You don't know why God allowed it. Yeah, Satan controls it, but who controls Satan (Satan is a created being so not like he is First Cause of evil).

Only difference in this discussion is the reformed side isn't weaponizing the existence of evil in our arguments.

LOL... I am never going to catch up to all these posts ... luckily, I don't have a life (wink)
[/QUOTE]
I don't understand what you mean by weaponizing evil.
I don't believe that's what I'm doing.

HERE is what I'm doing.
I know you posted the W.C. and the Baptist also....
BUT
How do YOU understand what it says?

First it states God predestined EVERYTHING...
Then it says that He is not responsible for sin.
HOW COULD THAT BE??

And what about Piper?
You don't agree with him when he clearly states that God is responsible for all evil?
(you never did reply to my links).

In other words, this is NOT reconciling two thoughts....
IT'S A CONFLICT. (God predestining all but not being the author of evil).

 

[GodsGrace]

I think I read that about Wesley. Agreed, we cannot overcome our sin nature


Agreed. This is what I was trying to use to demonstrate that we don't have the ability to chose freely. On one side the sin natures given to us because Adam "blow it" is, to some extent, determining our choices. Similarly, the indwelling Spirit is, to some extent, determining our choices (sanctification). We are not free to choose.
Then, as I pointed out, because of our depravity which most on your side cede as true ... no one can choose God. If we can't chose God of our own, yet we do ... the reason must be God.
Yeah, I know you don't agree. I would hope you appreciate the possibility.

Have a good sleep.

Why the "heck" (excuse the language) is an American in Italy?

I just can't agree that God could be:
LOVE
MERCY
JUSTICE

and not give to each one of us the possibility of becoming saved to be with Him.

Everyone believes we are born depraved.
But we have the ability to go to God....I've quoted several verses.

We still should go over that long post of yours from about a week ago.
It's still on my desk.

 

[Avigdor]

But how does that resolve NATURAL EVIL....or the evil we see in things we cannot control.
For nistance: The wind. It could be a balmy wind...or it could be a hurricane.
The balmy wind is pleasant and good....
but WE had nothing to do with the wind speeding up and becoming a hurricane.
HOW did THAT happen?

The Bible clearly tells us that the storms are controlled by God. No oneknows why He directs them where and how and when, but storms are not evil. Sometimes bad things happen because of them, but that is not evil. It is people and things being in the way. They may be necessary for the earth. Who knows. And God can direct or redirect them, as we see often from weather reports. ?? There is science involved in weather, and the science we know (good science i.e physics, biology etc.) is something God has revealed to us, it is still His creation. Certain atmospheric conditions are condusive to storms forming.
The nature we live in suffers because of our fall, in a sense it fell with us, though of course bears no responsibility, as we do.
Thanks for addressing my "theory" on evil existing as a necessary opposite. Truthfully I had not heard it before and in my head it was my own reasoning. I was beginning to think it must be too stupid to discuss. ?

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't remember the question. Try me again. Also I asked you a question. Do you have an answer to why God would make a bi-lateral covenant with people He knew would fail? Haven't heard unless it is in my alerts and I haven't read it yet.

You're missing posts!

I gave you a very long answer regarding the Covenants.
And the answer is from my own notes...I used to teach the covenants....
to beginners! Don't get excited!

See post no. 265

 

[Fastfredy0]

As for Sproul, I like his works, have read a large number of them, and if I ever read that he said God created evil,

Sproul was my favorite living theologian; then he went and died 2ish years ago.
R.C. Sproul: "it must be good that evil exists, because God sovereignly, providentially ordains only what is good. In terms of His eternal purpose, God has esteemed it good that evil should be allowed to happen in this world."

What Sproul said about evil ... I heard him give an anecdotal story that basically when like this: He is getting taught in seminary about theodicies (defense of God's goodness and omnipotence in view of the existence of evil) and his professor says to Sproul, "You don't seem very interested in the subject Mr. Sproul". Sproul replies, "Well, no one, including yourself, has has come up with a satisfactory idea to date, so if all these great theologians have failed to do it, why would I come up with the answer". The professor replies, "Well, perhaps you will be the one to answer this question". So, Sproul speaking to a group of people about this story says, "Well, it's 40 years later and I still don't have an answer". (Aside: my paraphrasing, not an exact quote)

 

[Fastfredy0]

The Challenge
I am still waiting for someone to take up my challenge and empirically prove the existence of "free will". Specifically, for one week stop sinning where I will limit the definition of sinning to "Love God with all your soul, might and heart" and "no evil thoughts".
Any takers?

Granted, you may state the test is invalid for some reason. The test is only for one week, so it doesn't prove "free will" exists perpetually, but I consider it strong evidence for the affirmative.
Another reason to not take the test is that your 'free will' choice is to disobey God. Seeing that is a possibility, I grant that my challenge would not work for the test is only valid for persons that wish to obey God without exceptions.

Any takers?

I took the challenge and sinned. I would like to obey God perpetually, but I can't. Seeing as I am on the side that discredits "free will" I will assume my bias and disqualify this test result.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Another question for the 'free will' people.

When I am glorified (get to heaven), will I:
1) Use my 'free will' to stop me from ever sinning again and if this be so, what changed me as I was not about to stop sinning on earth
2) I can still sin
3) God takes away my 'free will' and forces me to stop sinning.

I don't think I will get an answer. Hopefully the question amuses Avigdor.

 

[Avigdor]

Sproul was my favorite living theologian; then he went and died 2ish years ago.
R.C. Sproul: "it must be good that evil exists, because God sovereignly, providentially ordains only what is good. In terms of His eternal purpose, God has esteemed it good that evil should be allowed to happen in this world."

What Sproul said about evil ... I heard him give an anecdotal story that basically when like this: He is getting taught in seminary about theodicies (defense of God's goodness and omnipotence in view of the existence of evil) and his professor says to Sproul, "You don't seem very interested in the subject Mr. Sproul". Sproul replies, "Well, no one, including yourself, has has come up with a satisfactory idea to date, so if all these great theologians have failed to do it, why would I come up with the answer". The professor replies, "Well, perhaps you will be the one to answer this question". So, Sproul speaking to a group of people about this story says, "Well, it's 40 years later and I still don't have an answer". (Aside: my paraphrasing, not an exact quote)

That says it perfectly. It is God's eternal purpose that us finite people keep trying to figure out as though the finite can comprehend and see into the infinite God. As though we need to. I have been asked why God made bi-lateral covenants with people He knew would fail. I replied that I don't know, I only know He did. And I asked the question back. Have yet to receive an answer.

I saw that in a post to you, don't remember who and doesn't matter, that Reformed are always responding to the hard questions with there are things about God and His eternal purpose that we cannot know. (Paraphrase). As though that proved our theology wrong and flawed. Yet they have no substantial answer either. God has revealed to us what we need to know. Sure, I would like to know everything too. But I have grown up enough now to realize that is not possible, and speculation about the unknown is useless, (not to mention it often leads to unsound doctrine). I trust God, I know He is perfect and good and all His ways are perfect. I want Him to be the God that He is, whether I like it or not.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Point of clarification requested.

Your main 'beef' with REFORMED theology in recent posts is:
Given: Reform theology believes (as Piper said in the clip) that God, in eternity past, planned out EVERYTHING (right down to the relative position of a spec of dust in any moment of time). I think we agree on this.

and now, correct me if I a wrong...
from of the 'given' above you conclude that because God planned (meant, predestined, controls, predetermined, whatever) sin to occur, that this makes God the Author of sin which is tantamount to God sinning. Therefore, reform thinking in this area cannot possibly be true. Thus another explanation is needed.
Is this your position? Please make any changes to my assumptions about your position.

Aside: I can appreciate your reasoning if this is your position
Aside 2: We don't mention it often, but I am certain we again upon most theological statements of truth.

Aside 3: Someday we will have to discuss God's preference for people with 'blue' eyes.
Aside 4: You will never guess who has 'blue' eyes

 

[Avigdor]

You're missing posts!

I gave you a very long answer regarding the Covenants.
And the answer is from my own notes...I used to teach the covenants....
to beginners! Don't get excited!

See post no. 265

I will look for it. I may be missing posts, of course I have no way of knowing that. But also sometimes, in the morning if I don't have time to answer them with full attention and thought, if there are a lot of them, I just read them. Then when I sit down to answer, especially if there are a lot more new ones by then, I very well might miss a post. My apologies and I will get back to you after I read 265.
P.S. I am not excited, as in upset if that is what you meant. Sorry you got that impression.