Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Christian Forum aspires to be an online community where Christians can come together in fellowship with the purpose to encourage, inspire and build up our faith in Christ Jesus. John 13:34-35
  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses

IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

Not_Now.Soon

Supporter
From
Colorado, USA
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
2,605
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Hi NNS,
Maybe I'm wrong...but I don't worry about my salvation.

The big picture though is that God's sovereignty is part of my hope for both the world and for myself. For both struggles in this life, and hope in the next one. The worry about salvation I think has it's moments in many Christians lives, but if you don't worry about it then you must have a great amount of confidance in God. That's an awesome thing.

I agree with you that we have to choose who God is.

Jesus said: And who do YOU say that I AM??

The most important sentence in the N.T.
Depending on our answer we are either an enemy of God or a son of God.
There's no in-between, as much as some would like to believe there is.
Many will say they "haven't killed anyone" and yet Jesus stated that if we hate someone we have already murdered.

I also wish the world would change for the better...but I doubt that it will.
Sometimes I feel that this was the goal Jesus had: The Kingdom of God. (here on earth).

Kingdom of God on Earth. Can't wait.
 

wondering

Supporter
From
Italy
Gender
Female
Messages
17,503
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
The big picture though is that God's sovereignty is part of my hope for both the world and for myself. For both struggles in this life, and hope in the next one. The worry about salvation I think has it's moments in many Christians lives, but if you don't worry about it then you must have a great amount of confidance in God. That's an awesome thing.



Kingdom of God on Earth. Can't wait.
No. I mean the Kingdom of God here on earth NOW.
Jesus meant for us to CREATE a better world so that we, and man in general, could have a better life here and now.

Think of all the Kingdom parables Jesus told (don't have much time now)...He meant NOW.
THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS LIKE A PEARL....
Matthew....

As to salvation....
I'm not depending too much on myself but on God.
I'm a synergist, but I know I would not make it to heaven unless God was a merciful God
and Jesus told us He is IF we have faith in Him and obey (the best we could)...we're only human after all -- but this is no EXCUSE to sin...but we will sin.

God is totally perfect and anything to Him is sin....so it's impossible to be that perfect.
I hear some say on these threads that they never sin....I think that's funny.

Kids don't think they sin until they find out what it is. But they're about 10!
An adult person that thinks he doesn't sin must not know how PERFECT God is.

God is able to keep us if we let Him.
Philippians 1:6
 

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
805
Joined
May 4, 2020
Being in control does not require Him to control.
This is a contradiction. God cannot be in control when he is not in control. He can only be one of the other at any one time. Seeing as God is eternal, He has no 'succession of moments', so since he is immutable He must always be either in control or always out of control. To be 'out of control' is to contradict His Omnisapience so He cannot be so.
 

OzSpen

C F Martin D28 acoustic guitar
Member
From
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
5,598
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Randy,
I don't understand what the above verses have to do with what I wrote in my post no. 39.
I do believe, as you've said, that he ALLOWS to happen what naturally happens.

I'm of the belief that if something changes, like a healing for instance, it's a miracle and I doubt too many of those happen --- but I know they do.

What I'm saying is that there's a difference between God ALLOWING and God CAUSING.

Do you understand this difference?

wondering,

What's your understanding of God causing tsunamis, tornadoes and cyclones?

Oz
 

OzSpen

C F Martin D28 acoustic guitar
Member
From
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
5,598
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
This is a contradiction. God cannot be in control when he is not in control. He can only be one of the other at any one time. Seeing as God is eternal, He has no 'succession of moments', so since he is immutable He must always be either in control or always out of control. To be 'out of control' is to contradict His Omnisapience so He cannot be so.

fredy,

When is God out of control?

I've checked 7 major dictionaries for the meaning of omnisapience and found not a glimmer of help. I didn't know what it meant. This is what I found:
omnisapient

Dictionary.com asks, "did you mean 'unsapient?'" Well, no.

A search of many online dictionaries yields nothing, so far. For sapient, Google says: Adjective: Wise, or attempting to appear wise. Noun: A human of the species homo sapiens.
Why would you use an unknown word instead of calling Him the all-wise God.

See also: God’s Omnisapience: What is it and How Does it Affect You?

Oz
 

OzSpen

C F Martin D28 acoustic guitar
Member
From
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
5,598
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
OK.
I was rather upset to find out that some attribute everything to God...
even evil acts.

Thanks for clarifying!

wondering,

Would you consider hurricanes, tornadoes, floods and droughts the work of Satan?

Or do you attribute them to God?

Oz
 

OzSpen

C F Martin D28 acoustic guitar
Member
From
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
5,598
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Christopher Ash was a guest writer for Desiring God Ministries (John Piper's Ministry) who considers God's 'absolute, direct, and intentional sovereign government' in the world is achieved through intermediate powers of angels, some of whom are evil. These have 'no autonomy whatsoever'. However, the purposes of God are achieved through these means.

This view, he claimed, would 'give believers great confidence' as 'the sovereignty of God is unchallenged ... and yet also [has] great realism. He placed the role of supernatural evil within the 'infinite wisdom of God', leaving God untouched by evil. Yet, God 'chooses to weave evil into his purposes of ultimate good' (source).

I am left with a few questions:
  • That's what happened to Job, with God giving Satan power to cause catastrophe in his life. Is that what Satan does when people are killed in road accidents, fires and floods?
  • Did evil angels cause the 2004 Indian Ocean tsunami?
  • Are evil angels responsible for COVID-19?
  • Did evil angels motivate the pilots of the 9/11 planes to crash into the twin towers?
  • What about my severe heart condition? Are evil angels responsible for causing it?
Oz
 

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
805
Joined
May 4, 2020
Free Will definition:
Free Will - that which can do and does, in relation to God, whatever it pleases, uninhibited by any law or any sovereign authority. Free choice is not possible for man for either Satan or God is his master; as a slave cannot be free because he is under the sovereign authority of his master. Free choice ought to be dropped altogether in the study of man, since such a thing as free choice does not exist in him. The “will” is never a cause; it is the effect. God is the cause of all things. Only an eternal being can have no cause.
* There is no verse in the bible stating that man does anything outside the control of God. Colossians 1:17; Heb. 1:3, Acts 17:28

"To say that God is Sovereign is to declare that He is the Almighty, the Possessor of all power in Heaven and earth, so that none can defeat His counsels, thwart His purpose, or resist His will. The Sovereignty of the God of Scripture is absolute, irresistible, infinite." To put it now in its strongest form, God does as He pleases, only as He pleases, always as He pleases; that whatever takes place in time is but the outworking of that which He decreed in eternity. Proof texts: "But our God is in the heavens: He hath done whatsoever He hath pleased" (Psalm 115:3). "For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and His hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?" (Isaiah 14:27). "And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He doeth according to His will in the army of Heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand or say unto Him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35). "For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen" (Romans 11:36). Psalm 103:19 The LORD has established His throne in the heavens; And His sovereignty rules over all. Ephesians 1:11b Who works out everything in agreement with the counsel and design of His will.
 

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
805
Joined
May 4, 2020

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
805
Joined
May 4, 2020
wondering,

Would you consider hurricanes, tornadoes, floods and droughts the work of Satan?

Or do you attribute them to God?

Oz
The greatest evil of history was God's plan. All members of the trinity agreed to it. The calamity you mention is 'small potatoes'.

Genesis 22:8 God will provide himself a lamb.

Romans 8:32 He [God] who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Yet he [Jesus] opened not his mouth.

John 10:18 No one takes it from me [Jesus], but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

Hebrews 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

The devil is simply God's servant that he permits to do evil. Same example of Christ's death and the devil's involvement: Genesis 3:15 I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your [Satan] head, and you shall bruise his heel.”

Lots of verses saying God ordains evil (not that He is evil in any way)

  1. Exodus 4:11 The Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute or the deaf, or the seeing or the blind? Is it not I, the Lord?
  2. Lamentations 3:37 Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, Unless the Lord has commanded it? 38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that good and evil [adversity, calamity] come?
  3. Joshua 11:20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, that [Israel] might destroy them utterly, and that without favor and mercy, as the Lord commanded Moses. The Canaanites were destroyed by Joshua
  4. Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem, [which aided him in the killing of his brethren ]
  5. Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.
 

wondering

Supporter
From
Italy
Gender
Female
Messages
17,503
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
wondering,

What's your understanding of God causing tsunamis, tornadoes and cyclones?

Oz
Oz,
God doesn't cause tsunamis, tornadoes and cyclones.

Without referring to scripture, I'll answer quickly because we've been through this many times.
When the fall happened, everything was affected by it.
Man and nature.
We are both waiting for the redemption from the fall.
God set up a set of laws to govern the universe....we live under those laws.
God does not CAUSE evil to happen....
God ALLOWS evil to happen.

Why?

We don't know why....there is no explanation and we must just accept this and have trust in Him.
 

wondering

Supporter
From
Italy
Gender
Female
Messages
17,503
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
wondering,

Would you consider hurricanes, tornadoes, floods and droughts the work of Satan?

Or do you attribute them to God?

Oz
Answered in previous post.
I don't attribute evil to God.
I an not of the reformed faith...the only Christians that attribute everything to God.

God is all-good and nothing evil/dark is in Him.
Satan is the prince of this world and evil can be attributed to him.
 

OzSpen

C F Martin D28 acoustic guitar
Member
From
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
5,598
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Answered in previous post.
I don't attribute evil to God.
I an not of the reformed faith...the only Christians that attribute everything to God.

God is all-good and nothing evil/dark is in Him.
Satan is the prince of this world and evil can be attributed to him.

wondering,

How then do you answer this biblical revelation:

'The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these' (Isa 45:7 NASB)?

Oz
 

wondering

Supporter
From
Italy
Gender
Female
Messages
17,503
Joined
Dec 26, 2015
wondering,

How then do you answer this biblical revelation:

'The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these' (Isa 45:7 NASB)?

Oz
Easy.
Everything was attributed to God.
We're talking about 4,000 years ago.
I'm not a Traditional believer in the O.T.
Sorry 'bout that.

This doesn't mean that the O.T. is not the word of God...
but not as most understand it or it makes no sense at all.
 

wondering

Supporter
From
Italy
Gender
Female
Messages
17,503
Joined
Dec 26, 2015

OzSpen

C F Martin D28 acoustic guitar
Member
From
Brisbane, Qld, Australia
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
5,598
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Easy.
Everything was attributed to God.
We're talking about 4,000 years ago.
I'm not a Traditional believer in the O.T.
Sorry 'bout that.

This doesn't mean that the O.T. is not the word of God...
but not as most understand it or it makes no sense at all.

wondering,

So are you saying that the OT is not God-breathed Scripture?

Oz
 

WIP

Staff member
Moderator
From
Central Minnesota, USA
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
11,827
Joined
Dec 11, 2010
This is a contradiction. God cannot be in control when he is not in control. He can only be one of the other at any one time. Seeing as God is eternal, He has no 'succession of moments', so since he is immutable He must always be either in control or always out of control. To be 'out of control' is to contradict His Omnisapience so He cannot be so.
I never said that God is ever out of control. Quite the contrary. I believe He is always in control. But I do not believe He specifically controls everything. If He did, love would not be love, rather He would be forcing our every move, thought, and deed and then it would be a contradiction for Him to hold us accountable for our sins.
 

Not_Now.Soon

Supporter
From
Colorado, USA
Gender
Male
Christian
Yes
Messages
2,605
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
I never said that God is ever out of control. Quite the contrary. I believe He is always in control. But I do not believe He specifically controls everything. If He did, love would not be love, rather He would be forcing our every move, thought, and deed and then it would be a contradiction for Him to hold us accountable for our sins.

If I can WIP, I have a possible comparison for what I think your talking about. Might help the discussion for God being in control but not controlling everything. If this comparison isn't what your talking about let me know. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.

Regarding being in control but not controlling everything, an example of this that I see in our lives is an employer or a boss who is in comand of the operation, and really is in control of it all. But the boss sn't the one doing everything. He tells his workers what to do and they do it. Or if some don't do it, the boss either helps tgem get trained better, or has a confrontation with what they did wrong, so they get serious or they get fired. In this way the boss is in control even if he is not controlling every action or controlling the degree of skill his employees work at.

God could be thought of like this employer, and in a few parables of "the kingdom of heaven is like..." One of the characters is a rich land owner who hires people to work in his field, or a rich man who leaves and gives his money to his servents to invest while he is gone. So there are parables that present God as the rich employer who is in control.

However, God is a lot more powerful then any employer we know. I think it's said somewhere that God directs our steps, and that we don't know where our foot will land. God also directs people with their knowledge through the Holy Spirit, as well as directs them without them knowing, like hearing the Pharaoh's heart. These things can point to God being in complete control and controlling everything, or it can just point to how powerful God is and what His authority is over the world.

Nonetheless, God gives us a choice. He tells us many times through the prophets talking to Israel or to other nations to repent and turn from our sins. Or else face the consquences planned for our rebellion. Because He gives this choice, we can know that he is in control but not controlling so much that we have no choice. There is at least that much that He is not controlling.
 

Fastfredy0

Supporter
From
Chandler, Tx
Gender
Male
Messages
805
Joined
May 4, 2020
I never said that God is ever out of control. Quite the contrary. I believe He is always in control. But I do not believe He specifically controls everything.
Then, to the degree that God gives up control ... to that degree He is not in control. To that degree the infallible wisdom of God is replaced by the wisdom of an infinitely lesser being. A being that is not controlled by God, but by some unknown power.

This is a lesser form of Deism: This view represents the universe as a self-sustained mechanism, from which God withdrew as soon as he had created it, and which he left to a process of self-development.

Aside: Again you contradict yourself by stating "I believe He is always in control. But I do not believe He specifically controls everything".
  • Matthew 10:29 Are not two little sparrows sold for a copper coin? And yet not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will.
  • Romans 11:36 "For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen"
  • Job 14:5 Man’s days “are determined, the number of his months is with [God], and his limits [God] has set so that he cannot pass”
Please give me a verse that states anyone and anything has occurred outside the control (will) of God.

Can God create something that he does not control? If so, how could he know what it will do? How would this be wise?
What causes an entity not totally controlled by God to do this and that outside of God's control. Every effect must have a cause by definition. God is eternal, so He can have no cause; He is not an effect. What is the eternal power outside of God that causes man's will to do something outside of God's control?
 
Top