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IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

Not_Now.Soon

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To Fastfredy0,

Look at my last comment, it's just before the reply you've just made. This might explain better what it could mean to have God in control without controling everything.

On that note though. Regardless how much God is in control, or how much He controls, there is one challenge to consider.

What's point for God to say to anyone to repent and turn from your sins. If that choice is left up to us then that is a decision in our control. There are a few other examples in the bibke where the people excaped clamity because they turned to God, and He saved them. God is in control, but He has allowed us to make a choice to turn to Him.
 

LovethroughDove

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Jesus explains how it works.

Matthew 13:30

We are a field he is growing. He knows how much of a crop he is getting. It doesn't matter who is what, because it is our free will to become wheat at anytime. He predestines a crop to "be" produced and he will get it.

One reason I became wheat, is cause I saw a bunch of weeds that like to be weeds and I did not want that.
 

Fastfredy0

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To Fastfredy0,

Look at my last comment, it's just before the reply you've just made. This might explain better what it could mean to have God in control without controling everything.

On that note though. Regardless how much God is in control, or how much He controls, there is one challenge to consider.

What's point for God to say to anyone to repent and turn from your sins. If that choice is left up to us then that is a decision in our control. There are a few other examples in the bibke where the people excaped clamity because they turned to God, and He saved them. God is in control, but He has allowed us to make a choice to turn to Him.
Look at my last comment, it's just before the reply you've just made. This might explain better what it could mean to have God in control without controling everything. Maybe simply semantics.

What's point for God to say to anyone to repent and turn from your sins. If that choice is left up to us then that is a decision in our control. Point is to communicate God's will in my opinion. The 'choice' not left to us. Our sin nature and the depravity of man (not our choice to have sin nature and be depraved, yet God holds me accountable) has rendered us incapable of repenting of our own 'free will'. We always choose what we want at the time. Because unbelievers are depraved (Rom.3:11, 1 Cor.1:14; John 8:24; Rom. 3:12, etc.), slaves of satan (John 8:44) we cannot, of our own power, choose to believe. God must do it (John 1:12-13, Eph 2:8-9, Phil 1:29, etc. ...)

There are a few other examples in the bibke where the people excaped clamity because they turned to God, and He saved them. God is in control, but He has allowed us to make a choice to turn to Him. It doesn't say in the bible that these people turned of a will / decision independent of God. That is your assumption. There is no verse in the bible explicitly stating any person has done anything independant of God save sin and that also he controls by determining is he will permit it or not.
God controls us verses (Acts 17:28, Col. 1:17, Heb. 1:3, lots more)
 

jasonc

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Hyper Calvinism .

Why witness if Man has no choice but to repent if its already decided for him?
 

Fastfredy0

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Hyper Calvinism .

Why witness if Man has no choice but to repent if its already decided for him?
God told us to witness so we should obey.
God has chosen to use us as instruments. "Faith cometh by hearing." God chose us to witness. I am sure He could do it another way, I have to assume this is the best way and assume it is for our benefit that God does it this way. Ephesians 2:10 for we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.
 

jasonc

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God told us to witness so we should obey.
God has chosen to use us as instruments. "Faith cometh by hearing." God chose us to witness. I am sure He could do it another way, I have to assume this is the best way and assume it is for our benefit that God does it this way. Ephesians 2:10 for we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.
Yet you are assuming if God told us .to,obey implies You,having the ability to Deny Gods will.your post says otherwise earlier that we can't choose repentance ,we can't upon hearing Gods word reject it .

Any command has implication of punishment for choosing to ignore .thus God allows men to choose .


Not even my reformed chirch says what you say about free will
 

Fastfredy0

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Any command has implication of punishment for choosing to ignore .thus God allows men to choose .
Sorry, your grammar difficult to follow.

Any command has implication of punishment for choosing to ignore.
Agreed, all disobedience has a penalty to be paid by the unbeliever or Christ.
thus God allows men to choose . Well, scripture contradicts that. For example:
  • John 11:43 “Lazarus, come forth!” Lazarus was dead! He had no ability to come forth. First, God had to make him alive before He had the ability to come forth. Similarly, God has to regenerate you before you become spiritually alive.

Surprised you go to a reformed church as your comments suggest otherwise.
Westminster Confession Chapter 9.III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:sadd) so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,(e) and dead in sin,(f) is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
So the confession (the Reform Baptist confession is similar) clearly states that we are incapable of salvation via the human will. This is a minority view of Christians, but I agree with it.
 

wondering

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wondering,

So are you saying that the OT is not God-breathed Scripture?

Oz
I see that Fastfredy0 is looking rather distraught in his emoji.

Prophets were proven by the words the spoke and by the actualization of what they said.
David was inspired by God.
Being inspired by God does not mean that God phoned the Hebrews, Israelites or Jews and gave them instruction...although sometimes His instructions were very clear...for example the 10 commandments.

Has God ever spoken to you?
How?

When we read that God said....do we think in an audible voice?
When the Israelites marched around the wall in Jericho, God did tell them to do this.
But they attributed everything to God.
That doesn't mean that God DID everything they thought.
If the O.T. says that God told them to do something AGAINST HIS NATURE,,,,,
that would be a perfect example.

When I first heard this I just shook my head and denied it.
But as the years passed I began to realize that the O.T. makes much more sense
and a lot of tongue twisting doesn't have to go on regarding some terrible things
people think God did...like having women and children killed.
Or like creating chaos.
Why would God create chaos? It's against His nature and He is not a God of confusion.

That's the best I could do.
 

wondering

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Look at my last comment, it's just before the reply you've just made. This might explain better what it could mean to have God in control without controling everything. Maybe simply semantics.

What's point for God to say to anyone to repent and turn from your sins. If that choice is left up to us then that is a decision in our control. Point is to communicate God's will in my opinion. The 'choice' not left to us. Our sin nature and the depravity of man (not our choice to have sin nature and be depraved, yet God holds me accountable) has rendered us incapable of repenting of our own 'free will'. We always choose what we want at the time. Because unbelievers are depraved (Rom.3:11, 1 Cor.1:14; John 8:24; Rom. 3:12, etc.), slaves of satan (John 8:44) we cannot, of our own power, choose to believe. God must do it (John 1:12-13, Eph 2:8-9, Phil 1:29, etc. ...)

There are a few other examples in the bibke where the people excaped clamity because they turned to God, and He saved them. God is in control, but He has allowed us to make a choice to turn to Him. It doesn't say in the bible that these people turned of a will / decision independent of God. That is your assumption. There is no verse in the bible explicitly stating any person has done anything independant of God save sin and that also he controls by determining is he will permit it or not.
God controls us verses (Acts 17:28, Col. 1:17, Heb. 1:3, lots more)
Fastfredy
The above post is so confusing I hardly know where to start.
Sorry, I haven't been following along very well,,,
it's difficult to know for sure what you're saying.

First of all I do agree that God is always in control...the universe turns because God makes it turn.
Our heart beats because God causes it to beat.

However, God DOES NOT control everything.
This would be determinism or predestination of everything.
Is this what you believe?
Are you reformed?
That would make your statement more understandable. (if you were).

Do you believe God makes us choose Him and not of our own libertarian free will?
 

wondering

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Sorry, your grammar difficult to follow.

Any command has implication of punishment for choosing to ignore. Agreed, all disobedience has a penalty to be paid by the unbeliever or Christ.
thus God allows men to choose . Well, scripture contradicts that. For example:
  • John 11:43 “Lazarus, come forth!” Lazarus was dead! He had no ability to come forth. First, God had to make him alive before He had the ability to come forth. Similarly, God has to regenerate you before you become spiritually alive.

Surprised you go to a reformed church as your comments suggest otherwise.
Westminster Confession Chapter 9.III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:sadd) so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,(e) and dead in sin,(f) is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
So the confession (the Reform Baptist confession is similar) clearly states that we are incapable of salvation via the human will. This is a minority view of Christians, but I agree with it.
I also agree that jasonc 's comments are confusing.
He states that he attends a reformed church,,,but then states doctrine that seems to be otherwise.

He and I have discussed this a few times.
Hope you have better luck than me!

P.S. I love Jason...no problem.
 

wondering

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Sorry, your grammar difficult to follow.

Any command has implication of punishment for choosing to ignore. Agreed, all disobedience has a penalty to be paid by the unbeliever or Christ.
thus God allows men to choose . Well, scripture contradicts that. For example:
  • John 11:43 “Lazarus, come forth!” Lazarus was dead! He had no ability to come forth. First, God had to make him alive before He had the ability to come forth. Similarly, God has to regenerate you before you become spiritually alive.

Surprised you go to a reformed church as your comments suggest otherwise.
Westminster Confession Chapter 9.III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:sadd) so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,(e) and dead in sin,(f) is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
So the confession (the Reform Baptist confession is similar) clearly states that we are incapable of salvation via the human will. This is a minority view of Christians, but I agree with it.
Why should we care what the Westminster Confession states?
Shouldn't we be using the bible for our refernces?
Could you show me one verse that states we are born TOTALLY DEPRAVED?
I don't know one.

As to Lazarus...he was PHYSICALLY DEAD...
what does that have to do with being SPIRITUALLY DEAD?

Romans 10:9-13
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.”
12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”


We are born depraved of God's salvation.
But He give US the opportunity of being saved....
as a just God would do.

So we read in Romans that (ordo salutis)
1. We believe with our heart. Because God reveals Himself to ALL MANKIND.
2. It results in being right with God.
3. Confessing with the mouth, we are saved (as in no. 2)
4. WHOEVER believes in Christ will not be disappointed.
5. Jesus is Lord of ALL, abounding in riches for those who CALL ON HIS NAME.
6. WHOEVER will call on the name of the Lord, WILL BE SAVED.
 

jasonc

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Fastfredy
The above post is so confusing I hardly know where to start.
Sorry, I haven't been following along very well,,,
it's difficult to know for sure what you're saying.

First of all I do agree that God is always in control...the universe turns because God makes it turn.
Our heart beats because God causes it to beat.

However, God DOES NOT control everything.
This would be determinism or predestination of everything.
Is this what you believe?
Are you reformed?
That would make your statement more understandable. (if you were).

Do you believe God makes us choose Him and not of our own libertarian free will?
God makes no,one serve or even obey .

You,are reading way into that .

Grieve not the Holy Ghost ,wouldn't even be a command to say if it wasn't possible,nor renew your mind ,or any imperative ,if God makes us obey.

You must be pca,pcua.

God can and does allow us to fail,fall ,and allow the choices of our sins to lead us back to him.

I,should post a long route and ask you does God make me work ,does he input readsfor me or do I do it ?
 

jasonc

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Sorry, your grammar difficult to follow.

Any command has implication of punishment for choosing to ignore. Agreed, all disobedience has a penalty to be paid by the unbeliever or Christ.
thus God allows men to choose . Well, scripture contradicts that. For example:
  • John 11:43 “Lazarus, come forth!” Lazarus was dead! He had no ability to come forth. First, God had to make him alive before He had the ability to come forth. Similarly, God has to regenerate you before you become spiritually alive.

Surprised you go to a reformed church as your comments suggest otherwise.
Westminster Confession Chapter 9.III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:sadd) so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,(e) and dead in sin,(f) is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
So the confession (the Reform Baptist confession is similar) clearly states that we are incapable of salvation via the human will. This is a minority view of Christians, but I agree with it.
The fact I attend any church will never be an implication because pastor says.church doctrine says I will just buy it.
 

Fastfredy0

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However, God DOES NOT control everything.
This would be determinism or predestination of everything.
Is this what you believe?
Are you reformed?
That would make your statement more understandable. (if you were).

Do you believe God makes us choose Him and not of our own libertarian free will?

However, God DOES NOT control everything. Proof text please. Explicit verses please.
This would be determinism or predestination of everything.
Is this what you believe? There is not a single molecule that God has not ordained to submit to his "all" encompassing plan. (decree).

Are you reformed? That label fits me best.
That would make your statement more understandable. (if you were). I was hoping my reference to scriptures would have helped too.

Do you believe God makes us choose Him and not of our own libertarian free will? Yes. John 1:12-13 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified]. I could give you another 100+ verses indicating God's will is only factor in salvation. The bible clearly and repeatedly states we are NOT able to choose him, which would be a "work" and reason to "boast" if we could.
 

jasonc

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God makes no,one serve or even obey .

You,are reading way into that .

Grieve not the Holy Ghost ,wouldn't even be a command to say if it wasn't possible,nor renew your mind ,or any imperative ,if God makes us obey.

You must be pca,pcua.

God can and does allow us to fail,fall ,and allow the choices of our sins to lead us back to him.

I,should post a long route and ask you does God make me work ,does he input readsfor me or do I do it ?
Directed to freedyj
 

jasonc

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However, God DOES NOT control everything. Proof text please. Explicit verses please.
This would be determinism or predestination of everything.
Is this what you believe? There is not a single molecule that God has not ordained to submit to his "all" encompassing plan. (decree).

Are you reformed? That label fits me best.
That would make your statement more understandable. (if you were). I was hoping my reference to scriptures would have helped too.

Do you believe God makes us choose Him and not of our own libertarian free will? Yes. John 1:12-13 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified]. I could give you another 100+ verses indicating God's will is only factor in salvation. The bible clearly and repeatedly states we are NOT able to choose him, which would be a "work" and reason to "boast" if we could.
Does God think ,does he make you sin?when you sin,was it you or him?
If no,then God allows your free to,reject him.and sin.

Y'all didn't read what Calvin said ,we aren't robots in modern terms.
You,read with a reformed bias ,step back pit down the confession ,clear mind and answer its never we aren't free will agents.

If I couldn't reject God how then the bible teach of the warming and punishment of those that fall away?
Can't fall away from something you never attained .

I,know I repented and briefly went into homosexuality.then repented of that .
 

jasonc

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Even in the reformed ,its God puts it into your heart ,you act because you Love God ,this implies a choice to act on,the command .

I know I'm one of the few that in my tiny church who will ask on,these matters .my,pastor wants us to know the bible ,see what it supports over church doctrine .

I didn't hide my views might be different from him or the elders on this ,pre mil,futurism.

He is a amil,his wife isn't ,his elder who teaches on eschatology is pre mil.
 

Fastfredy0

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God makes no,one serve or even obey .

You,are reading way into that .

Grieve not the Holy Ghost ,wouldn't even be a command to say if it wasn't possible,nor renew your mind ,or any imperative ,if God makes us obey.

You must be pca,pcua.

God can and does allow us to fail,fall ,and allow the choices of our sins to lead us back to him.

I,should post a long route and ask you does God make me work ,does he input readsfor me or do I do it ?
Grieve not the Holy Ghost ,wouldn't even be a command to say if it wasn't possible,nor renew your mind ,or any imperative ,if God makes us obey.
Example of impossible command to obey: Love the Lord thy God with all your soul and heart and mind. IMPOSSIBLE

You must be pca,pcua. NO, I agree with the PCAs (not the pedobaptism)

God can and does allow us to fail,fall ,and allow the choices of our sins to lead us back to him. Agreed, God allows (controls)

I,should post a long route and ask you does God make me work ,does he input readsfor me or do I do it ? You would Him "How". Acts 17:28 For in Him we live and move and exist [that is, in Him we actually have our being],
 

wondering

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However, God DOES NOT control everything. Proof text please. Explicit verses please.
This would be determinism or predestination of everything.
Is this what you believe? There is not a single molecule that God has not ordained to submit to his "all" encompassing plan. (decree).

Are you reformed? That label fits me best.
That would make your statement more understandable. (if you were). I was hoping my reference to scriptures would have helped too.

Do you believe God makes us choose Him and not of our own libertarian free will? Yes. John 1:12-13 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified]. I could give you another 100+ verses indicating God's will is only factor in salvation. The bible clearly and repeatedly states we are NOT able to choose him, which would be a "work" and reason to "boast" if we could.
Choosing God would mean we have faith.
You believe FAITH is a WORK?
Ephesians 2:8-9 states that FAITH is a gift from God,,,as is salvation.
God gives us grace and through the instrument of faith we become saved...
This instrument is a gift from God but which we must choose to have....
The gift is available to all since God wishes for all to be saved,,,,
1 Timothy 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Unfortunately, not all WANT to be saved since there are conditions that must be met:
John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


You posted
John 1:12-14 Just read what it says....
12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.


Verse 12: But as many AS RECEIVED HIM. It's up to US to receive Christ.
Revelation 3:20 He stands at the door and knocks....we open the door.

Verse 13: We are children of God, not of blood of course, it is not a PHYSICAL rebirth.
Not because of some plan by man or by works by man, but from the will of God that planned this salvation economy from the beginning. IOW,,,it is not our WORKS that save us...but the plan God had for our salvation after the fall. Genesis 3:15

Do you know how to use the quote feature?
It would make it easier to reply to you.
 
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