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IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

jasonc

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Grieve not the Holy Ghost ,wouldn't even be a command to say if it wasn't possible,nor renew your mind ,or any imperative ,if God makes us obey.
Example of impossible command to obey: Love the Lord thy God with all your soul and heart and mind. IMPOSSIBLE

You must be pca,pcua. NO, I agree with the PCAs (not the pedobaptism)

God can and does allow us to fail,fall ,and allow the choices of our sins to lead us back to him. Agreed, God allows (controls)

I,should post a long route and ask you does God make me work ,does he input readsfor me or do I do it ? You would Him "How". Acts 17:28 For in Him we live and move and exist [that is, in Him we actually have our being],
He gave the ability ,but I can as new guy does it ,drag it out.

I could drag the day ,and routes but having integrity I won't .

My point God gives me an ability and holds me accountable for its use .

He doesn't make me please him.
 

LovethroughDove

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The bible clearly and repeatedly states we are NOT able to choose him, which would be a "work" and reason to "boast" if we could.
John 3:19-21 "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

I know that this is a freewill thing happening here
 

jasonc

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The Arminism side doesn't deny that we don't have the power to change but,that we must ask God to change us
 

OzSpen

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Then, to the degree that God gives up control ... to that degree He is not in control. To that degree the infallible wisdom of God is replaced by the wisdom of an infinitely lesser being. A being that is not controlled by God, but by some unknown power.

Fredy,

Why couldn't God use an intermediary in his absolute sovereignty? He did it for Job by using Satan. :idea

Oz
 

Fastfredy0

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Fredy,

Why couldn't God use an intermediary in his absolute sovereignty? He did it for Job by using Satan. :idea

Oz
God often (usually?) uses an intermediary. Intermediaries are referred to as "second causes" by some theologians. God is the "first cause", Satan, you, me can be the "second cause". Yeah, satan and Job a great example. It was God that controlled how far satan could go in regards to tormenting Job.
 

OzSpen

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I see that Fastfredy0 is looking rather distraught in his emoji.

Prophets were proven by the words the spoke and by the actualization of what they said.
David was inspired by God.
Being inspired by God does not mean that God phoned the Hebrews, Israelites or Jews and gave them instruction...although sometimes His instructions were very clear...for example the 10 commandments.

Has God ever spoken to you?
How?

When we read that God said....do we think in an audible voice?
When the Israelites marched around the wall in Jericho, God did tell them to do this.
But they attributed everything to God.
That doesn't mean that God DID everything they thought.
If the O.T. says that God told them to do something AGAINST HIS NATURE,,,,,
that would be a perfect example.

When I first heard this I just shook my head and denied it.
But as the years passed I began to realize that the O.T. makes much more sense
and a lot of tongue twisting doesn't have to go on regarding some terrible things
people think God did...like having women and children killed.
Or like creating chaos.
Why would God create chaos? It's against His nature and He is not a God of confusion.

That's the best I could do.

wondering,

I think you are skating on thin ice with your view of the OT. What was Scripture when Paul wrote to Timothy?

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV).​

What was 'all Scripture'? Only what the prophets prophesied? Or does ALL mean ALL? There was only one Scripture when Paul wrote and that was the OT.

Oz
 

wondering

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wondering,

I think you are skating on thin ice with your view of the OT. What was Scripture when Paul wrote to Timothy?

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV).​

What was 'all Scripture'? Only what the prophets prophesied? Or does ALL mean ALL? There was only one Scripture when Paul wrote and that was the OT.

Oz
No thin ice Oz.
I don't worry about all those difficult passages in the O.T. anymore.
I said that the entire bible IS GOD BREATHED. I said it is INSPIRED.
God did not sit at a typewriter and type it out.
Inspired men wrote the O.T.
The N.T. has witnesses and is also not as old.

All scripture is useful for
TEACHING
REBUKING THE UNGODLY
CORRECTING IN MORALS
AND TRAINING THE CONSCIENCE FOR BEING RIGHT WITH GOD.
2 Timothy 3:16-17

Agreed. It is all of these things.
I never said anything differently.
I never said not to pay attention to ALL of the written word.
 

Fastfredy0

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He doesn't make me please him.

"Make me?" Well, God doesn't hold a knife to your back to control you if that is what you mean. He has other methods: the holy spirit regenerates you making your spirit, which was dead, alive. Regeneration logically occurs first and from it you are given a propensity of repentance, faith, you are baptisted (spiritually) by the Spirit, put "in Christ" and your sanctification begins.
Because your spirit is now alive (because of the Holy Spirit) you will be motivated to obey. The Spirit indwelling in you will be the cause of that motivation.
  • Isaiah 26:12 Lord, You will establish peace for us, Since You have also performed for us all that we have done.,
  • Ezekiel 11:19 "And I shall give them one heart, and shall put a new spirit within them. And I shall take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances, and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God.
  • John 6:28 Then they asked Him, “What are we to do, so that we may habitually be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”
  • Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words.
Heb. 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. ... and you seek him because the Spirit regenerated you.
1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit.

Bad analogy, but here goes ... I want you to scratch yourself. Currently, you don't want to due to your 'free will'. I secretly put 'itching powder' in your shorts. You, of your own 'free will' start scratching. You, unaware of what I have done, suppose your scratching is completely independent of anyone else and credit (pride) your ability to independently scratch and relieve yourself. In reality, I was the cause, the effect was your scratching. Similarly, the holy spirit regenerates you (the cause) and you start to love, believe and obey God; the effect. Unless you read your bible you have no idea of the ultimate cause. You determines the cause of your scratching was yourself.
 

wondering

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"Make me?" Well, God doesn't hold a knife to your back to control you if that is what you mean. He has other methods: the holy spirit regenerates you making your spirit, which was dead, alive. Regeneration logically occurs first and from it you are given a propensity of repentance, faith, you are baptisted (spiritually) by the Spirit, put "in Christ" and your sanctification begins.
Because your spirit is now alive (because of the Holy Spirit) you will be motivated to obey. The Spirit indwelling in you will be the cause of that motivation.
  • Isaiah 26:12 Lord, You will establish peace for us, Since You have also performed for us all that we have done.,
  • Ezekiel 11:19 "And I shall give them one heart, and shall put a new spirit within them. And I shall take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances, and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God.
  • John 6:28 Then they asked Him, “What are we to do, so that we may habitually be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”
  • Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words.
Heb. 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. ... and you seek him because the Spirit regenerated you.
1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit.

Bad analogy, but here goes ... I want you to scratch yourself. Currently, you don't want to due to your 'free will'. I secretly put 'itching powder' in your shorts. You, of your own 'free will' start scratching. You, unaware of what I have done, suppose your scratching is completely independent of anyone else and credit (pride) your ability to independently scratch and relieve yourself. In reality, I was the cause, the effect was your scratching. Similarly, the holy spirit regenerates you (the cause) and you start to love, believe and obey God; the effect. Unless you read your bible you have no idea of the ultimate cause. You determines the cause of your scratching was yourself.
Are you sure you're saved if you believe GOD CHOSE YOU?
Wouldn't you be much more secure in your salvation if YOU CHOSE GOD??

Calvin's Institutes 3.2.11

reprobate. How the elect are distinguished from the reprobate.

I am aware it seems unaccountable to some how faith is attributed to the reprobate, seeing that it is declared by Paul to be one of the fruits of election[8]; and yet the difficulty is easily solved: for though none are enlightened into faith, and truly feel the efficacy of the Gospel, with the exception of those who are fore-ordained to salvation, yet experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect, that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them.

Hence it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith, is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of his goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption. Should it be objected, that believers have no stronger testimony to assure them of their adoption, I answer, that though there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith, yet the elect alone have that full assurance which is extolled by Paul, and by which they are enabled to cry, Abba, Father.

Therefore, as God regenerates the elect only for ever by incorruptible seed, as the seed of life once sown in their hearts never perishes, so he effectually seals in them the grace of his adoption, that it may be sure and steadfast. But in this there is nothing to prevent an inferior operation of the Spirit from taking its course in the reprobate. Meanwhile, believers are taught to examine themselves carefully and humbly, lest carnal security creep in and take the place of assurance of faith.

We may add, that the reprobate never have any other than a confused sense of grace, laying hold of the shadow rather than the substance, because the Spirit properly seals the forgiveness of sins in the elect only, applying it by special faith to their use. Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy, they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them.

Nor do I even deny that God illumines their minds to this extent, that they recognize his grace; but that conviction he distinguishes from the peculiar testimony which he gives to his elect in this respect, that the reprobate never attain to the full result or to fruition. When he shows himself propitious to them, it is not as if he had truly rescued them from death, and taken them under his protection.

He only gives them a manifestation of his present mercy[9]. In the elect alone he implants the living root of faith, so that they persevere even to the end. Thus we dispose of the objection, that if God truly displays his grace, it must endure for ever. There is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent.
 

Fastfredy0

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John 3:19-21 "This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

I know that this is a freewill thing happening here
"I know that this is a freewill thing happening here". You have to define 'free will'. If you mean you have decided do something and that God did not cause you to do it, then there in nothing in this verse saying "God didn't cause you" to come to the truth. If anything, the words "what he has done has been done through God" indicates that God was the cause.

If you mean by 'free will' that you decided to 'come to God' because you desire that most, then I agree. I maintain that the cause of the change in your desire (free will) was God via regenerating you and giving you faith/repentance.
 

Fastfredy0

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Are you sure you're saved if you believe GOD CHOSE YOU?
Wouldn't you be much more secure in your salvation if YOU CHOSE GOD??

Hmmm, interesting question.
Assuming the person in question is saved ...

Option 1: I believe faith is a gift of God.
I don't worry, in reference to being saved, about the amount of faith I have or the contents of that faith. I believe that God has given me enough faith (trust, belief) and that the contents of that faith are sufficient for my salvation for, by definition, He has done it for me. I know if God chose me there is no power that can separate me from God.


Option 2: Now, if I believe faith is my responsibility ...
now I have a problem if I am analytical. I ask myself:
1) How much faith do I need. I believe, but do I belief enough quantitatively. Is a minimal quantitative level of faith required? If so, what is it? How do I find out? If I find out; how do I achieve and maintain that level?
2) What exactly are the contents of faith in order to be believed? Do I have to believe everything in the Bible, do I have to believe Jesus is God, do I have to understand the Trinity, do I have to confess my sins, what if I stop believing, what if I get Alzheimer's and forget my faith, what beliefs would invalidate my faith like believing I must be baptized to be saved (believe and be baptist Mark 16:16).
3) Assuming I have the contents of my faith correct, as that is my responsibility to be saved, how much trust must I have in those contents to be saved? I know atheists that have a better understanding of the contents of faith than Christians, yet they are not saved. I must trust in what I believe to be saved. I hope I trust enough. If I trusted totally I would never disobey, but I do. Maybe the trust portion of my faith is insufficient for salvation? How do I measure it for salvific assurance?

Hmmm ... I would rather depend on God for my salvation than myself. Seems to me God usually does a better job at most everything than I; He does have a good track record.
 

wondering

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"I know that this is a freewill thing happening here". You have to define 'free will'. If you mean you have decided do something and that God did not cause you to do it, then there in nothing in this verse saying "God didn't cause you" to come to the truth. If anything, the words "what he has done has been done through God" indicates that God was the cause.

If you mean by 'free will' that you decided to 'come to God' because you desire that most, then I agree. I maintain that the cause of the change in your desire (free will) was God via regenerating you and giving you faith/repentance.
Only the reformed need an explanation of Free Will because they have changed the meaning.
Every other human knows the meaning of FREE WILL with no further explanation.

You give a very innocent meaning in your second paragraph of why we desire one thing and not the other. We all have a desire to please God...but we fail at times, don't we?

So why does God make us fail? After all, it's HE that makes us desire what we desire.
Does He take please in our sinning?
 

Fastfredy0

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Only the reformed need an explanation of Free Will because they have changed the meaning.
Every other human knows the meaning of FREE WILL with no further explanation.

You give a very innocent meaning in your second paragraph of why we desire one thing and not the other. We all have a desire to please God...but we fail at times, don't we?

So why does God make us fail? After all, it's HE that makes us desire what we desire.
Does He take please in our sinning?
Response lacks your definition of "free will". It does vary. Not appropriate to infer I know your meaning or that everyone knows what you mean by 'free will' and it is safer not to take a stance. Always interested in someone showing me verses to substantuate the existence of free will and the cause of free will using the Law of Causality (every effect has a cause)

Response lacks scripture to authenticate your statements.

So why does God make us fail? He does not. Replace "make" with "allow". "Make" implies God sinning. His thoughts are not my thoughts, so I can't answer as He would and you are asking why God does something. Perhaps the answer is Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still blame me [for sinning]? For who [including myself] has [ever] resisted His will and purpose?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers [arrogantly] back to God and dares to defy Him? Will the thing which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does the potter not have the right over the clay, to make from the same lump [of clay] one object for honorable use [something beautiful or distinctive] and another for common use [something ordinary or menial]? 22 What if God, although willing to show His [terrible] wrath and to make His power known, has tolerated with great patience the objects of His wrath [which are] prepared for destruction? 23 And what if He has done so to make known the riches of His glory to the objects of His mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 including us, whom He also called, not only from among the Jews, but also from among the Gentiles?
Perhaps the answer is Job chap 38-39:)


After all, it's HE that makes us desire what we desire. This is not true. God does not 'make' us desire to do evil things. He permits us to do some evil things; the evil things being part of our sin nature imputed from Adam (thank you Adam:cries) . I prefer not to get into theodicies. God's sovereignty it enough for now :)
Does He take please in our sinning? No, He is not pleased when we sin. He does allow it to happen according to his plan / purpose. Again, I prefer not to get into theodicies. God's sovereignty it enough for now :)
 

jasonc

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Wondering you are confusing your view of free will ,with what you,think the reformed say..
"Make me?" Well, God doesn't hold a knife to your back to control you if that is what you mean. He has other methods: the holy spirit regenerates you making your spirit, which was dead, alive. Regeneration logically occurs first and from it you are given a propensity of repentance, faith, you are baptisted (spiritually) by the Spirit, put "in Christ" and your sanctification begins.
Because your spirit is now alive (because of the Holy Spirit) you will be motivated to obey. The Spirit indwelling in you will be the cause of that motivation.
  • Isaiah 26:12 Lord, You will establish peace for us, Since You have also performed for us all that we have done.,
  • Ezekiel 11:19 "And I shall give them one heart, and shall put a new spirit within them. And I shall take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances, and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God.
  • John 6:28 Then they asked Him, “What are we to do, so that we may habitually be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.”
  • Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words.
Heb. 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. ... and you seek him because the Spirit regenerated you.
1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit.

Bad analogy, but here goes ... I want you to scratch yourself. Currently, you don't want to due to your 'free will'. I secretly put 'itching powder' in your shorts. You, of your own 'free will' start scratching. You, unaware of what I have done, suppose your scratching is completely independent of anyone else and credit (pride) your ability to independently scratch and relieve yourself. In reality, I was the cause, the effect was your scratching. Similarly, the holy spirit regenerates you (the cause) and you start to love, believe and obey God; the effect. Unless you read your bible you have no idea of the ultimate cause. You determines the cause of your scratching was yourself.
Wondering that's in,charismatic circles its called unctioning,prayed up as touched by the Spirit to do Gods will.forced no.
Yes they use bad words but this part I,must agree .God even trains us to seek Him more and conditions us to be more like Him by,this.doesn't mean we can't also fall away
 

Fastfredy0

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“Free Will” verses God’s sovereignty

If man can choose one thing or another then God must change his purpose to correspond with that act or volition.
To this it may be replied that we know that such cannot be the case, for this would take away the independence of God. It would make his volitions dependent upon those of man. Romans 11:34-35 “For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been his counselor? Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?” The force of this is, it is impossible to bring the Almighty under obligations to the creature; God gains nothing from us.

Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]” Neither our “love” or “faith” for God or our “sin” against God affect God unless it is a “love” or “faith” he gives us, or “sin” he permits us to commit.


Excuse the hyperbole, might as well be humorous. ? Why scripture refutes “free will” where “free will” is defined as our willingness, “independent of God”, to decide to believe (have faith) for salvation: (aside: small selection of verses just dealing with man’s inability due to his depravity. I didn't even get into how "free will" is at odds with God's will, God's Call, God's attributes, examples of biblical conversions of saints, biblical analogies, "free will" being a 'work' and cause to boast, "free will" contradicts the law of causality, biblical sources stating faith and repentance are gifts from God, and "free will" violates perseverance of the saints (assuming you believe in such a thing).
Aside: I don’t mean to be irreverent, but there are some of the implications of ‘free will’ which boasts of the power of man in the work of salvation.

Genesis 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. How do you explain this verse in the light of your statement “We all have a desire to please God”?

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one. How do you explain this verse in the light of your statement “We all have a desire to please God”? How do you make yourself clean via your “free will” when the verse says you cannot?

Jeremiah 13:23 “Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? (No!) Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil. How do you explain this verse in the light of your statement “We all have a desire to please God”? It clearly says you cannot change your ways.

Isaiah 64:6 We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness’s are as filthy rags. But you can be righteous because you have ‘free will’? Wow

Matthew 7:18 “A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor a bad tree bear good fruit.” But “free will” changes the fruit from bad to good; then, possibly from good to bad …

Matthew 12:34 “How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.” Well, according to “free willers”, they have the answer: from their own strength of the ‘free mind’

Matthew 19:25-26 “‘Who then can be saved?’ But Jesus looked at them and said to them, ‘With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'” Ah, perhaps there is a way for a man to save himself. He is independent of God and can freely chose to belief. Always an exception to the rule.

John 1:4 In Him was life [and the power to bestow life], and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines on in the darkness, and the darkness did not understand it or overpower it or appropriate it or absorb it [and is unreceptive to it]. “the darkness did not understand it; yet, from the darkness via ‘free will’ creates it own light that breaks the hold of satan himself...wow

John 3:3 “unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” - assuming the analogy fits, then the person’s birth is in no way controlled by the will of the person being born. I have never heard of someone self-birthing themselves.

John 3:20 For every wrongdoer hates (loathes, detests) the Light, and will not come out into the Light but shrinks from it, lest his works (his deeds, his activities, his conduct) be exposed and reproved. Ah, but wait … there is something stronger that man’s hate of the Light (God) … praise be “free will”, I have set myself free. Praise me?

John 8:43 “Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.” Wait, let me turn on my “free will” and then I will understand.

John 12:39-40 “They could not believe, because Isaiah said again: “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.”
Matthew 13:14-15; Isaiah 6:9-10 – God hardens and blinds some men so they cannot understand Can 'free will' overcome God?

John 3:20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light. What of 'free will'?

John 6:44a no one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day. Wait a minute, beside the Father the power of my FREE WILL can draw me to Him.

John 8:34 whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. A slave is a person who is ‘the legal property of another and is forced to obey them’. If only the slaves of the 1800s had used their ‘free will’ that could set themselves free? Of course, the slave master is Satan in this case, so you must have EXTRA free will to break away from him

John 8:43 Why do you misunderstand what I say? It is because you are unable to hear what I am saying. [You cannot bear to listen to My message; your ears are shut to My teaching.] 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. But wait, probably the most powerful created being, the unbeliever’s father whom he is slave to … ‘free will’ allows us to break free from him. What a power thing one has via ‘free will’. Back off satan, I can defeat you if I set my mind to it.

John 14:17a The Spirit of Truth, Whom the world cannot receive (welcome, take to its heart), because it does not see Him or know and recognize Him. Again, this verse does not expound of the power of free will to come to our aid

Romans 1:18 For God’s [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative. [unbeliever’s suppression of God’s truth]

Romans 3:10-18 “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. Is ‘free will’ an exception to the rule. I feel I decided to follow Christ of my own accord. I must have found a loop hole. Praise me?

Romans 3:12 All have turned aside;

Romans 5:6 “For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.” Well, perhaps via 'free will' I can at least live sinlessly. In theory, that is possible despite the bad showing of man to date.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. Actually, according to ‘free will’ people we are justified by TWO men; Christ and the man who of his own ‘free will’ choses to believe. God’s did His part, it up to me to complete the work of salvation. Praise us?

Romans 7:14 We know that the Law is spiritual; but I am a creature of the flesh [carnal, unspiritual], having been sold into slavery under [the control of] sin. Apparently ‘free will’ is stronger and can break this control. I am so fortunate as I have this ability whose source (cause) is, wait for it, me.

Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot perform it. [I have the intention and urge to do what is right, but no power to carry it out.] Maybe the strongest of Christians, Paul, wasn’t given ‘free will’. If he had he could have willed to do right despite ‘nothing good dwelling in him’.


1 Corinthians 1:18 For the story and message of the cross is sheer absurdity and folly to those who are perishing and on their way to perdition, but to us who are being saved it is the [manifestation of] the power of God. Power of God and the power of “my free will” … praise me?

1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural [unbeliever] person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. Not sure how one cannot understand and yet rationally decide to follow God.

Etc. etc. etc.
 

OzSpen

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Response lacks your definition of "free will". It does vary. Not appropriate to infer I know your meaning or that everyone knows what you mean by 'free will' and it is safer not to take a stance. Always interested in someone showing me verses to substantuate the existence of free will and the cause of free will using the Law of Causality (every effect has a cause)

Response lacks scripture to authenticate your statements.

So why does God make us fail? He does not. Replace "make" with "allow". "Make" implies God sinning. His thoughts are not my thoughts, so I can't answer as He would and you are asking why God does something. Perhaps the answer is Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still blame me [for sinning]? For who [including myself] has [ever] resisted His will and purpose?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers [arrogantly] back to God and dares to defy Him? Will the thing which is formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does the potter not have the right over the clay, to make from the same lump [of clay] one object for honorable use [something beautiful or distinctive] and another for common use [something ordinary or menial]? 22 What if God, although willing to show His [terrible] wrath and to make His power known, has tolerated with great patience the objects of His wrath [which are] prepared for destruction? 23 And what if He has done so to make known the riches of His glory to the objects of His mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 including us, whom He also called, not only from among the Jews, but also from among the Gentiles?
Perhaps the answer is Job chap 38-39:)


After all, it's HE that makes us desire what we desire. This is not true. God does not 'make' us desire to do evil things. He permits us to do some evil things; the evil things being part of our sin nature imputed from Adam (thank you Adam:cries) . I prefer not to get into theodicies. God's sovereignty it enough for now :)
Does He take please in our sinning? No, He is not pleased when we sin. He does allow it to happen according to his plan / purpose. Again, I prefer not to get into theodicies. God's sovereignty it enough for now :)

Fredy,

Simply stated, the nature of human free will or of human free choice is, according to Norman Geisler, ‘the power of contrary choice’ (Geisler 2003:444). This is a basic and simple definition: ‘Free will or free choice is the power of contrary choice’ and it is not taken away from human beings by God’s sovereignty.

In my understanding, God gave to Satan (Lucifer) and to Adam the power of free choice before the Fall. However, to discuss free choice, God’s sovereignty and human depravity will take a lot of space that is for other threads.

This view of free will, the power of contrary choice, is compatible with God’s complete sovereignty over human choice as God’s omniscient attribute knows absolutely what every free choice will be. God cannot be the one who decrees sinful actions. Why?

We know God cannot sin. We know that he cannot lie (Heb 6:18; Titus 1:2) and he cannot be tempted by evil and he cannot tempt people with evil (James 1:13). This is the nature of our Lord God Almighty:
The Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and upright is he’ (Deuteronomy 32:4 ESV)
Oz

Bibliography:

Geisler, N 2003. Systematic theology: God, creation, vol 2. Minneapolis, Minnesota: BethanyHouse.
 

OzSpen

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“Free Will” verses God’s sovereignty

If man can choose one thing or another then God must change his purpose to correspond with that act or volition.

Fredy,

That's what open theism teaches. It's not a biblical view as it abolishes or deliberately damages God's omniscience (all knowing attribute).

God's all-knowing ability causes him to know my change of mind without sabotaging his sovereign will.

Oz
 
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Hmmm, interesting question.
Assuming the person in question is saved ...

Option 1: I believe faith is a gift of God.
I don't worry, in reference to being saved, about the amount of faith I have or the contents of that faith. I believe that God has given me enough faith (trust, belief) and that the contents of that faith are sufficient for my salvation for, by definition, He has done it for me. I know if God chose me there is no power that can separate me from God.


Option 2: Now, if I believe faith is my responsibility ...
now I have a problem if I am analytical. I ask myself:
1) How much faith do I need. I believe, but do I belief enough quantitatively. Is a minimal quantitative level of faith required? If so, what is it? How do I find out? If I find out; how do I achieve and maintain that level?
2) What exactly are the contents of faith in order to be believed? Do I have to believe everything in the Bible, do I have to believe Jesus is God, do I have to understand the Trinity, do I have to confess my sins, what if I stop believing, what if I get Alzheimer's and forget my faith, what beliefs would invalidate my faith like believing I must be baptized to be saved (believe and be baptist Mark 16:16).
3) Assuming I have the contents of my faith correct, as that is my responsibility to be saved, how much trust must I have in those contents to be saved? I know atheists that have a better understanding of the contents of faith than Christians, yet they are not saved. I must trust in what I believe to be saved. I hope I trust enough. If I trusted totally I would never disobey, but I do. Maybe the trust portion of my faith is insufficient for salvation? How do I measure it for salvific assurance?

Hmmm ... I would rather depend on God for my salvation than myself. Seems to me God usually does a better job at most everything than I; He does have a good track record.
Hi Fastfredy
It's a question that needs to be asked.

If there's a glass of water in the middle of the table and I'm thirsty,,,I can know FOR SURE that I'll be drinking it soon if it's up to me to move my hand and grab it.

I won't be quite as secure that I'll ever get to drink it if it's up to SOMEBODY else to hand it to me.

Now,,,I'll be very happy to answer your verses and continue this conversation with you but you must PLEASE answer these two questions:

1. Did you read what I had posted from the Institutes? It's in post no. 90.

2. Could you please clarify whether or not you're of the reformed faith?
Because it seems that you are but then you state beliefs that are NOT of the reformed faith.
So, actually, I don't really know how to reply to you.

Are you on the proverbial fence and are neither here nor there?

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