IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[JLB]

. I have wondered how this part of the puzzle fits. (Deut. 29:29) Eventually, you get to a point where there is a question that you shrug your shoulders.

“The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.
Deuteronomy 29:29


God has revealed that He wants His people to obey Him, and do His law.

To love God and love people.


It‘s difficult to believe that any of His children would come to the conclusion that it was His will for Adam to sin, and disobey Him, in which all mankind would be poisoned with Adam’s sin, and He would have to send many to hell because of it.


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. Romans 5:12-14



JLB

 

[JLB]

Following is a write up by a guy that put more thought into it that I could. I agree with it. The part where it says, "Did Adam, for reasons sufficient to him, come to the place cognitively where he wanted to eat the fruit?" I have no idea what Adam's reasons were.

“Was Adam aware of God’s prohibition and warning respecting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil at the moment he ate its fruit? Reformed theology says yes. Did Adam have the capacity and power to do God’s preceptive will respecting the fruit? Reformed theology says yes. Did Adam, for reasons sufficient to him, come to the place cognitively where he wanted to eat the fruit? Reformed theology says yes again. (Reformed theology would also insist at this point, over against Arminianism, precisely because Adam had his reasons, that he was not exercising an “indifferent” will.) Was Adam forced to eat the fruit against his will? Reformed theology would say no. Therefore, because Adam acted knowingly, willingly, spontaneously, for reasons sufficient for him, with no violence being done to his will, Reformed theology insists that he was a free agent in his transgression. But if someone should ask: Was Adam totally free from God’s eternal decree, Reformed theology would say, of course not. Could Adam have done differently? Again, from the viewpoint of the divine decree, the answer is no. To answer these questions any other way is simply to nullify the Scripture’s teaching to the effect that God, who works everything in conformity with his eternal purpose (Ephesians 1:11), purposed before the foundation of the world to save a multitude of sinners who would fall in Adam.” Robert Reymond A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith

Is it these teachings that led you to believe it was God’s will for Adam to disobey Him, and thereby poison all mankind with sin?



JLB

 

[JLB]

Technicality .... of little consequence ... Adam was not deceived by Satan (though apparently Eve was) I Timothy 2:14-15

.... anyways

Clarification Question:
In regards to Adam's short rule and Satan's rule of the earth. Was there ever a time that God did not have authority over Adam and Satan in ALL things?

God has authority over heaven and earth.


A policeman has authority to enforce the law, but that does not mean people will choose to obey.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Respectfully, I don't wish to discuss God's Sovereignty further because you will not state your definition of God's Sovereignty.

I have stated based on the scripture I gave, and the two versions given that Sovereignty = Kingdom.


JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

But how would you know if we take something away or add something?

You may have misunderstood me. My theology says we can't add to or subtract from God. This does not contradict God's attribute of immutability.

Your theology, IMO, says we have 'free will'. That God has to look into the future to determine what we will do. This means God's knowledge increases; ergo, God is not immutable. If God is mutable in this regard, he is greater than He was for His knowledge has increased. Knowledge is the foundation of wisdom, so His wisdom increased also.

 

[Fastfredy0]

But God can/does change, He repented (changed) at the evil He said He would do unto

This is your first statement.

God does not change His mind, He has foreknowledge therefore does not have to change His mind. I was pointing out how God changes His course of action.

This is your second statement.

I am still confused. You are saying God does not change His mind yet He changes His course of action which requires a change of mind. Anyways, I think I know what you are getting at.

 

[Fastfredy0]

It‘s difficult to believe that any of His children would come to the conclusion that it was His will for Adam to sin, and disobey Him, in which all mankind would be poisoned with Adam’s sin, and He would have to send many to hell because of it.

Wow, questioning my salvation. That was uncalled for IMO.

Given 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural [unbelieving] man (which you insinuate I am) does not accept the things [the teachings and revelations] of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness [absurd and illogical] to him; and he is incapable of understanding (which would be me in your opinion) them, because they are spiritually discerned (which would be me since you insinuate the Spirit does not dwell in me) and appreciated, [and he is unqualified to judge spiritual matters].

Well, further discussion has come to an end as it is felt I am "incapable of understanding".

Ouch, guess I will see John Calvin, Augustine, John Owens, John Edwards, Charles Surgeon and others with similar beliefs in hell.
wondering ... nice to have meet you

 

[jasonc]

Wow, questioning my salvation. That was uncalled for IMO.

Given 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural [unbelieving] man (which you insinuate I am) does not accept the things [the teachings and revelations] of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness [absurd and illogical] to him; and he is incapable of understanding (which would be me in your opinion) them, because they are spiritually discerned (which would be me since you insinuate the Spirit does not dwell in me) and appreciated, [and he is unqualified to judge spiritual matters].

Well, further discussion has come to an end as it is felt I am "incapable of understanding".

Ouch, guess I will see John Calvin, Augustine, John Owens, John Edwards, Charles Surgeon and others with similar beliefs in hell.
wondering ... nice to have meet you

spurgeon, my pastor's favorite, Edwards , I just read up on him. I know he was a puritan, likely also reformed.

often quoted book, not his only, sinners in the hands of an angry god. he also was into science before he was a preacher. many souls came to the faith because of him.

 

[JLB]

Wow, questioning my salvation. That was uncalled for IMO.

?

I didn’t question your salvation.

I just simply stated ... it’s difficult for me to believe that a believer would think it’s God’s will for Adam to disobey Him.

In no way am I questioning your salvation.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Given 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural [unbelieving] man (which you insinuate I am) does not accept the things [the teachings and revelations] of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness [absurd and illogical] to him; and he is incapable of understanding (which would be me in your opinion) them, because they are spiritually discerned (which would be me since you insinuate the Spirit does not dwell in me) and appreciated, [and he is unqualified to judge spiritual matters].

I certainly never insinuated that in any way.


JLB

 

[jasonc]

from a reformed view. It was God's will to allow Adam to sin. He didn't desire,nor make Adam sin, in that He wants men to freely Love him. Adam and eve were made and God knew that they would reject him and also allowed it.

I am an arminist. I agree with that. adam because God knew he would sin, would sin as we cant act in such a manner that God wont already know it long before were made(God is outside of time) and will act as God foreseen it. He doesn't make us sin.

 

[JLB]

Well, further discussion has come to an end as it is felt I am "incapable of understanding".

Actually, if you think about, based on my comment of “it’s difficult for me to believe (understand)“, it would seem I’m the one who is incapable of understanding.


Just because I don’t agree with you on one particular subject, certainly doesn’t mean I question your salvation, or think you are incapable of understanding.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Ouch, guess I will see John Calvin, Augustine, John Owens, John Edwards, Charles Surgeon and others with similar beliefs in hell.

What makes you think those people you mentioned are in hell?


Many people think I’m going to hell because I promote a
“works based“ salvation.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

God accomplished His will with Pharaoh (Romans 9:17) and did not violate nor take away Pharaoh's free will. God used Pharaoh's choice to be stubborn and rebellious to accomplish His will.

I agree and appreciate that you said this.
Many will say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but if we read carefully we find that he had already hardened his own heart. This is like in Romans 1 where God will turn over persons to their own lust (in that case) because the hardness of their heart makes it impossible for the Holy Spirit to work in them, so God "gives up" on them.

Therefore God does use the choices men make to accomplish His own will. Since it was Pharaoh's free will choice God did not CAUSE Pharoah to disobey against his own will therefore Pharaoh cannot blame his actions on anyone but himself.

Agreed again.
God uses man's free will choices to bring about His plan --- this is the way I like to say this. Of course, God's plan is also His will. If man did not act FREELY, then, of course, man could not be held responsible for his sinful decisions.

I'm sorry, I couldn't understand you well before.
I feel like we have to be careful how we say what we believe due to the many different doctrines we Protestants seem to have.

God's decretive will is when He makes a decree. God decreed the world into existence and no man can stop or change what God decrees.

Of course the reformed/calvinist doctrine is that God decrees EVERYTHING that happens, even man's sins,,BUT man is still responsible for his sins. This goes against logic for a God that is just...meaning He gives to everyone what each person DESERVES. How is this possible is am mystery to me. I thought you might have been saying this.

God's preceptive will is what He desires, wishes man would do. 2 Peter 3:9 God desires all men come to repentance and those that do are following God's preceptive will. Of course man can go against God's preceptive will and not do as God desires (Matthew 23:37) and will be eternally punished.

I've never heard this called preceptive will before. Is this a term used in scripture? Or is it learned is lessons from a church?

Therefore all that happens falls within the control of God's decretive, preceptive or permissive will.

I understand now.
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

You may have misunderstood me. My theology says we can't add to or subtract from God. This does not contradict God's attribute of immutability.

Your theology, IMO, says we have 'free will'. That God has to look into the future to determine what we will do. This means God's knowledge increases; ergo, God is not immutable. If God is mutable in this regard, he is greater than He was for His knowledge has increased. Knowledge is the foundation of wisdom, so His wisdom increased also.

I don't know Fred....
this sounds all very weird to me.

I didn't misunderstand,,,I don't understand!

I said we cannot add or subtract from God anyway because we can't know everything about Him.

God knows what we will do...looking into the future is OK although that's not really how it happens.
Time is spread out for God...there is no past, present or future. These are terms we use for OUR benefit...God does not benefit from our "time" method.

There are different beliefs regarding this and is also studied by philosophy.
For me, personally, it's a subject I don't care to know down to the last detail.

In MY THEOLOGY, as you put it...God does not "increase in knowledge" by knowing the future,,,because He knows the future at any moment....there is no increase in knowledge.

Plus, it would be interesting to know where you got this idea from, but if you don't care to state it, no problem. I've never heard of this before you posted it.

God is what He is....
As to immutability,,,it refers to His nature....
God can change if He wants to,,,
but His nature cannot change or it would be impossible to have
any faith in Him.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

This is your first statement.


This is your second statement.

I am still confused. You are saying God does not change His mind yet He changes His course of action which requires a change of mind. Anyways, I think I know what you are getting at.

I never said anything about God changing His mind. But God does change His course of action as seen in Jonah 3:10.

A change in course of action does not require a change of mind.

Jeremiah 18:8-10
If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

God does have a predetermined course of action in dealing with those who will not obey HIs voice (no mercy) and those who do obey (show mercy). One king (Pharaoh) did not obey God's voice therefore God's predetermined course of action was to show no mercy. Yet another king (Nineveh) did obey and repent and God did show mercy.

The difference in how God dealt with these two kings was not baseless or random nor did God change His mind in how He would deal with kings going from Pharaoh to the king of Nineveh. God just followed His predetermined course of action in dealing with both kings.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I agree and appreciate that you said this.
Many will say that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but if we read carefully we find that he had already hardened his own heart. This is like in Romans 1 where God will turn over persons to their own lust (in that case) because the hardness of their heart makes it impossible for the Holy Spirit to work in them, so God "gives up" on them.


Agreed again.
God uses man's free will choices to bring about His plan --- this is the way I like to say this. Of course, God's plan is also His will. If man did not act FREELY, then, of course, man could not be held responsible for his sinful decisions.

I'm sorry, I couldn't understand you well before.
I feel like we have to be careful how we say what we believe due to the many different doctrines we Protestants seem to have.


Of course the reformed/calvinist doctrine is that God decrees EVERYTHING that happens, even man's sins,,BUT man is still responsible for his sins. This goes against logic for a God that is just...meaning He gives to everyone what each person DESERVES. How is this possible is am mystery to me. I thought you might have been saying this.


I've never heard this called preceptive will before. Is this a term used in scripture? Or is it learned is lessons from a church?


I understand now.
Thanks.

The exact term 'preceptive will" is not found in the Bible but the idea of it is found in the Bible.

God has given man commands to obey and God desires, wishes men will obey those commands.


2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. "

God's 'willing' in this verse is God's preceptive will, God's desires that all men come to repentance and be saved. If God DECREED all men come to repentance then all men would come to repentance and be saved for certain. Since most men will NOT come to repentance then God's 'willing' in this verse is NOT God's decretive will but His preceptive will.

Men can go against God's precetive will:
Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! "

Jesus "would" (preceptive will, what God desires) but those Jews "would not".

Just because man can go against God's preceptive will does not negate God's sovereignty. Go against God's preceptive will and face the wrath of God. God has promised to punish the disobedient and His sovereign will will be done in punishing them. The disobedient will not escape God's will.

(I don't consider myself Protestant or Catholic. I have major disagreements with both.)

 

[GodsGrace]

The exact term 'preceptive will" is not found in the Bible but the idea of it is found in the Bible.

God has given man commands to obey and God desires, wishes men will obey those commands.


2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. "

God's 'willing' in this verse is God's preceptive will, God's desires that all men come to repentance and be saved. If God DECREED all men come to repentance then all men would come to repentance and be saved for certain. Since most men will NOT come to repentance then God's 'willing' in this verse is NOT God's decretive will but His preceptive will.

Men can go against God's precetive will:
Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! "

Jesus "would" (preceptive will, what God desires) but those Jews "would not".

Just because man can go against God's preceptive will does not negate God's sovereignty. Go against God's preceptive will and face the wrath of God. God has promised to punish the disobedient and His sovereign will will be done in punishing them. The disobedient will not escape God's will.

(I don't consider myself Protestant or Catholic. I have major disagreements with both.)

I do understand you now and I do agree....
Perceptive will is what God WOULD WANT...but man is still free to decide for Himself.
You posted perfect verses for this.

As to your last sentence...ditto for me.
I'm looking into the orthodox faith but I doubt I could change at this point in my life.
There's no perfect church, that's for sure.
But we do need fellowship...
I get mine from this forum and enjoy speaking about things of God.

 

[Prycejosh1987]

Does God lose any amount of His sovereignty
by allowing us to have Free Will?

Or does it make Him more sovereign?0

Sovereign would mean that he knows everything and can work around our free will. We knows all situations we will face in life and works around our choices.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Sovereign would mean that he knows everything and can work around our free will. We knows all situations we will face in life and works around our choices.

Since God knows everything, even the choices we make with our free will, therefore God can USE our free will choices to accomplish his will. God foreknew what choices Judas would make and God used Judas' free will choices to accomplish God's own plan of Christ dying for mankind. Therefore God does not violate man's free will but uses it to advance His own will.