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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?
- Thread starter GodsGrace
- Start date
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Some say that God is sovereign and so he does not give us free will.
Somehow God loses some sovereignty by giving us free will.
Is this true?
Well, the last time God and I sat down with a glass of beer, we discussed exactly this.
And his answer was so complex. there's no way I could explain it, but he did make it easy for me to understand.
Yeah, that's God for you.
He's quite a guy, I'll say that for sure.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
If you can't explain something, it means you don't understand it.
And after many years of being a Christian, a person should know what they believe.
Easy to understand?
We each believe something differently.
Sometimes I think I should become Orthodox.
At least they agree on everything and I can't think of one doctrine
they have wrong.
Ernest T. Bass
Member
Romans 9:17 "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. "
God raised Pharaoh up for two purposes given in this verse 1) I might show my power in thee and 2) My name be declared throughout the earth.
God was going to sovereignly accomplish these two things yet God still allowed Pharaoh to use his free will to choose to obey God and let the people go or disobey God and not let the people go.
Had Pharaoh chosen to obey God and let the people go then God would have shown His power over this great king and God's name would be magnified.
Yet Pharaoh chose to disobey and not let the people go therefore God sent plagues unto Pharaoh until Pharaoh chose to let the people go.
God maintained Sovereignty over the situation without violating Pharaoh's free will. Hence God Sovereignty is about control not causation. God did not need to cause Pharaoh to disobey against his own will in order for God to accomplish His will per Roman 9:17. God controls through His will....either His decretive will, permissive will or preceptive will. God's foreknowledge in knowing what men will choose and His power to permit or not permit the plans of man gives God sovereign control over what He has created.
Yes, I love how they have displays of pictures of people they call saints and everyone kisses them.
I gave my definition of Sovereign. Post # 548
Sovereignty is the word I don’t really have a definition for.
I went ahead in another post gave a verse that used the word Sovereignty and it’s synonym which is Kingdom.
See Post # 549
JLB
Sovereignty means Kingdom based on the following.
What does Sovereignty mean to you?
Here is a verse from the NASB and the NKJV.
The NASB uses the word Sovereignty.
The LORD has established His throne in the heavens,
And His sovereignty rules over all. Psalm 103:19 NASB
The LORD has established His throne in heaven,
And His kingdom rules over all. Psalm 103:19 NKJV
NKJV uses the word kingdom.
Do you believe God’s was for Adam to disobey Him?
Or
Do you believe that God foresaw what Adam would do and planned accordingly, allowing for Adam’s freedom of choice?
JLB
What does sovereignly mean?
I agree still allowed Pharaoh to use his free will to choose to obey God and let the people go or disobey God and not let the people go.
JLB
JLB,
JLB,
Is the Oxford Dictionary definition inadequate? Sovereignty means 'supreme power or authority' (lexico.com 2020. s.v. sovereignty).
Oz
JLB,
I apologise I posted before I had finished completing the information I wanted to share.
I find the Oxford Dictionary's definition to be adequate? Sovereignty means 'supreme power or authority' (lexico.com 2020. s.v. sovereignty).
Psalm 103:19 (CEV) confirms this as the biblical understanding: 'God has set up his kingdom in heaven, and he rules the whole creation'.
Theses verses summarise my understanding of the sovereignty of God:
Oz
I apologise I posted before I had finished completing the information I wanted to share.
I find the Oxford Dictionary's definition to be adequate? Sovereignty means 'supreme power or authority' (lexico.com 2020. s.v. sovereignty).
Psalm 103:19 (CEV) confirms this as the biblical understanding: 'God has set up his kingdom in heaven, and he rules the whole creation'.
Theses verses summarise my understanding of the sovereignty of God:
My basic understanding of God's sovereignty is that he controls everything.
Oz
wondering,
Would you agree with me that God is sovereign and in his sovereignty God willed for us to have free wills (the power of alternate choice). Remember what Jesus said:
‘Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing' (Matt 23:37 NIV).
Elsewhere he said to the Jews: 'but you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life' (John 5:40 NET).
Why is evil allowed to continue for so long - and now with Covid-19 - Peter told us, 'The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance' (2 Pet 3:9 NIV).
God is patient and wants people to repent, but we know the end result. God is sovereign so he will defeat evil (see 1 Cor 15:24-28; Rev 21:4). Because God's attributes include the fact he is all-good, all-powerful; has all-knowledge and is all-wise, this guarantees that the sovereignty of God assures us he will conquer evil. His omnipotence guarantees he can defeat all evil.
A new world is coming - new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells (2 Pet 3:13 NIV). There will be no more Covid-19, terrorism, 'Tears will never stain the streets of that city' (Rev 21:4 NIV).
Oz
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi Earnest....
And hence, in your post above, is the entire problem of calling God Sovereign.
NOT because He sis not sovereign,,,
but because of what WE have come to believe it means.
In your words, sovereign means CONTROL.
Sovereign does not denote control...it denotes POSSIBLE control.
God could decree whatever He wants to, but He chooses to give us free will instead.
The bible teaches me that I have free will.
God can intervene and actually cause some events to happen....but this is not the normal way He has set up the world system.
JLB explained this perfectly in post no. 548.
I can't do better than that.
God is sovereign over all...
this does not mean He intends to control all.
The earth is the domain of the evil one.
HE is the prince of the air.
Ephesians 2:2
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Yes, well, some Christians were very special.
They died for their faith...none of us have.
In other countries persons also die for their faith.
I don't think it's nice to diminish what they've been through...
including death.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I agree fully with the above.
Ernest T. Bass
Member
Ultimate control and authority. Man has free will to make his plans but God has control, authority with His will over those plans, Proverbs 16:9. God can use the plans of man to fulfill His own will. God foreknew that in sending Christ to earth at the time He did that men, Jews and Romans, would plan and plot against Christ to crucify Him thereby fulfilling God's plan in Christ dying for mankind. They thought they were carrying out their own plans but unknowingly were carrying out God's plan. And God did not violate, over-ride their free will but used men's free will choices to carryout His own will. As God used Pharaoh's choice to disobey to carry out God's own purpose in Romans 9:17.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
It's not so much that our free will will be taken away.
It's that we will no longer have a sin nature and will be restored to the original relationship we had with God. OUR will truly will be HIS will.
But this is NOT true right now,,,,
right now we WALK IN THE SPIRIT
but are still capable of sin.
As John says in 1 John 1 and 2 and 3.
Again, if I h ave to "force" someone to love me...HOW does that glorify me???
Of course I mean Libertarian Free Will.
What does mutability have to do with glorifying God?
Please explain....
I don't understand about the immutability.
Ernest T. Bass
Member
No matter how man uses his free will and what man chooses God still has control over those choices and outcome and does not violate free will in the process. Calvinists tell me God causes men to do what they do thereby through causation God sovereignly controls man. But such an idea makes God culpable Himself for what men do.
God then does control all that does take place by His will..either by His decretive will (God determines it will happen), permissive will (God allows it to happen) or preceptive will (God desires a thing to happen and man uses his free will and does what God desires). Nothing takes place outside of God's will.
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