IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN?

[GodsGrace]

Ernest T. Bass

The above is for JLB.

But instead of beating around the bush....
why don't you explain Compatible Free Will to
the other member?

The above explanation is not very precise.

 

[GodsGrace]

No matter how man uses his free will and what man chooses God still has control over those choices and outcome and does not violate free will in the process. Calvinists tell me God causes men to do what they do thereby through causation God sovereignly controls man. But such an idea makes God culpable Himself for what men do.

God then does control all that does take place by His will..either by His decretive will (God determines it will happen), permissive will (God allows it to happen) or preceptive will (God desires a thing to happen and man uses his free will and does what God desires). Nothing takes place outside of God's will.

I'm sorry Ernest...
the above makes no sense at all.

You cannot believe both doctrine.

If you are calvinist, then you DO believe God causes everything to happen.
This DOES make God responsible for sin and takes away the responsibility from us.

Which would make God UNJUST.
And since God is JUST,,,how could this possibly make any sense??

Please show me where in the bible God took away man's free will....
Even calvinists believe Adam and Eve had free will.

WHEN or WHERE was it taken away?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yes, well, some Christians were very special.
They died for their faith...none of us have.
In other countries persons also die for their faith.
I don't think it's nice to diminish what they've been through...
including death.

You're the one who said they don't have a single one doctrine wrong.
That's what I was addressing.

 

[GodsGrace]

You're the one who said they don't have a single one doctrine wrong.
That's what I was addressing.

In post no. 566 you said the following:

Yes, I love how they have displays of pictures of people they call saints and everyone kisses them.

I was responding to that regarding Christians dying for their faith.
I also believe they have doctrines that are correct.
I'm looking into that now and who knows what will be.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I went ahead in another post gave a verse that used the word Sovereignty and it’s synonym which is Kingdom.

See Post # 549

I read your posts yesterday. You also stated, "I don’t have a definition for Sovereignty. "

So, I am left with verses you gave in the bible about the sovereignty of God and your statement that "I don’t have a definition for Sovereignty." That still leaves us at a dead end because the question is about the sovereignty of God and although you are aware of verses in the Bible using the word "sovereignty", you still won't define what it means to you. So, seems to me, the discussion is this area can go no further because I don't know how you are defining the terms in the question.

Technically, if you believe GOD is immutable, the question "IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN" can only be logically answered in the affirmative.
Premise 1: God is immutable
Premise 2: The question uses the word "STILL" so question admits God sovereign at one time
Conclusion: God is still sovereign is a true statement.


Hey, cloudy day. I beat the heat by walking early (7:00 a.m.)

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I'm sorry Ernest...
the above makes no sense at all.

You cannot believe both doctrine.

If you are calvinist, then you DO believe God causes everything to happen.
This DOES make God responsible for sin and takes away the responsibility from us.

Which would make God UNJUST.
And since God is JUST,,,how could this possibly make any sense??

Please show me where in the bible God took away man's free will....
Even calvinists believe Adam and Eve had free will.

WHEN or WHERE was it taken away?

I'm not a Calvinist nor have I said God takes away man's free will. Man does have free will given him by God and God allows man to use that gift of free will. And God can take man's free will choices to accomplish His own will thereby NOT violate man's free will. Hence God has control over all that happens by either decreeing it to happen, by allowing it to happen or by desiring it to happen.

God's permissive will allowed Joseph's brothers to plot against him and carry out those plans, yet God in His providence was able to take the evil they meant and turn it into good thereby God was still in sovereign control and did not violate their free will.
Genesis 50:20

 

[JLB]

I read your posts yesterday. You also stated, "I don’t have a definition for Sovereignty. "

So, I am left with verses you gave in the bible about the sovereignty of God and your statement that "I don’t have a definition for Sovereignty." That still leaves us at a dead end because the question is about the sovereignty of God and although you are aware of verses in the Bible using the word "sovereignty", you still won't define what it means to you. So, seems to me, the discussion is this area can go no further because I don't know how you are defining the terms in the question.

As I indicated in my next post, the verse from the NASB and
NKJV were given.


Here is a verse from the NASB and the NKJV.

The NASB uses the word Sovereignty.


The LORD has established His throne in the heavens,
And His sovereignty rules over all. Psalm 103:19 NASB


The LORD has established His throne in heaven,
And His kingdom rules over all. Psalm 103:19 NKJV


NKJV uses the word kingdom.



So based on scripture Sovereignty = Kingdom.


What does Sovereignty mean to you?




JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

Again, if I h ave to "force" someone to love me...HOW does that glorify me???
Of course I mean Libertarian Free Will.

What does mutability have to do with glorifying God?

Please explain....
I don't understand about the immutability.

Hmmm, guess I will answer the last question first as understanding IMMUTABLE is key to my other responses.

Immutable defined: God does not change. Nothing can be added to and taken away from God.
Bible verses: Malachi 3:6a For I the Lord do not change; I can give 25ish more verses but trying to be brief (Don't want to get into Him changing His mind)
Logic (trying to be short):
If God’s essence be changed, he either increaseth or diminisheth.” Whatsoever is changed, doth either gain by receiving something larger and greater than it had in itself before, or gains nothing by being changed. If the former, then it receives more than itself, more than it had in itself before. The Divine nature cannot be increased; for whatsoever receives anything than what it had in itself before, must necessarily receive it from another, because nothing can give to itself that which it hath not. But God cannot receive from another what he hath not already, because whatsoever other things possess is derived from him, and, therefore, contained in him, as the fountain contains the virtue in itself which it conveys to the streams; so that God cannot gain anything.

So, back to the dog and you and I. If God cannot change then we cannot add or take away from Him. All we have was His and still is His (1 Corinthians 4:7; Luke 17:10). Thus, when we show him love we are only reflecting/showing His glory; we are not adding to His glory because He cannot change.

We both glorify God. The subtle difference between you and I (IMO) is our understanding of what causes us to glorify God.
I believe God gave me the desire to glorify him and thus what I do is a consequence of what he did in me. Thus God does not change for I am returning to Him worship he put in me.
You believe (IMO) that you are, to some extent, glorifying God independent of God's influence. God now has more Glory than He once had, you added to it. He is not what He was, he is therefore MUTABLE which conflicts for God's statement that He is IMMUTABLE. If God can change, then all His promises are suspect.

Sorry, that is almost as short as I could do. I can understand if you think it mombo-jumbo.



In the interest of brevity, you don't have to read the following:
Arminian Viewpoint of Immutability of God
Freewill theists believe God has the potential for change in some respects. For instance, God perfectly relates to creatures in on-going dynamic interaction. For God to fail to change in relation to us as the relationship changes would be less than perfect. Thus, though the divine nature is immutable, God can change in thoughts, will and emotions. For Freewill theism God is steadfast and faithful but is able to change in certain respects. A God who experiences our love, or lack of it, in dynamic relationships cannot be completely unchangeable. John Sanders

In the incomprehensibility of the Divine nature, this attribute is also to be reconciled with unbounded activity or mobility when it is brought into relation to the creature; and, in relation to the moral creature, with the changeable manifestation of an eternal purpose. Argument is utterly useless here. It is the highest reason to submit to this necessary antinomy or paradox. William Pope Systematic Theology

 

[JLB]

Technically, if you believe GOD is immutable, the question "IS GOD STILL SOVEREIGN" can only be logically answered in the affirmative.
Premise 1: God is immutable
Premise 2: The question uses the word "STILL" so question admits God sovereign at one time
Conclusion: God is still sovereign is a true statement.

You are free to conclude anything you like.


God is a Sovereign: The Supreme Ruler.

He has always been and always will be the Supreme Ruler.


Because He is the supreme Sovereign or Ruler, He has chosen to give the earth to the sons of men.


The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’s;
But the earth He has given to the children of men.
Psalm 115:16


Adam was the governor or ruler over the earth, and lost his place of authority to Satan, in which Satan deceived him into obeying him, and thereby became the “god” or ruler of this world.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Hmmm, guess I will answer the last question first as understanding IMMUTABLE is key to my other responses.

Immutable defined: God does not change. Nothing can be added to and taken away from God.
Bible verses: Malachi 3:6a For I the Lord do not change; I can give 25ish more verses but trying to be brief (Don't want to get into Him changing His mind)
Logic (trying to be short):
If God’s essence be changed, he either increaseth or diminisheth.” Whatsoever is changed, doth either gain by receiving something larger and greater than it had in itself before, or gains nothing by being changed. If the former, then it receives more than itself, more than it had in itself before. The Divine nature cannot be increased; for whatsoever receives anything than what it had in itself before, must necessarily receive it from another, because nothing can give to itself that which it hath not. But God cannot receive from another what he hath not already, because whatsoever other things possess is derived from him, and, therefore, contained in him, as the fountain contains the virtue in itself which it conveys to the streams; so that God cannot gain anything.

So, back to the dog and you and I. If God cannot change then we cannot add or take away from Him. All we have was His and still is His (1 Corinthians 4:7; Luke 17:10). Thus, when we show him love we are only reflecting/showing His glory; we are not adding to His glory because He cannot change.

We both glorify God. The subtle difference between you and I (IMO) is our understanding of what causes us to glorify God.
I believe God gave me the desire to glorify him and thus what I do is a consequence of what he did in me. Thus God does not change for I am returning to Him worship he put in me.
You believe (IMO) that you are, to some extent, glorifying God independent of God's influence. God now has more Glory than He once had, you added to it. He is not what He was, he is therefore MUTABLE which conflicts for God's statement that He is IMMUTABLE. If God can change, then all His promises are suspect.

Sorry, that is almost as short as I could do. I can understand if you think it mombo-jumbo.



In the interest of brevity, you don't have to read the following:
Arminian Viewpoint of Immutability of God
Freewill theists believe God has the potential for change in some respects. For instance, God perfectly relates to creatures in on-going dynamic interaction. For God to fail to change in relation to us as the relationship changes would be less than perfect. Thus, though the divine nature is immutable, God can change in thoughts, will and emotions. For Freewill theism God is steadfast and faithful but is able to change in certain respects. A God who experiences our love, or lack of it, in dynamic relationships cannot be completely unchangeable. John Sanders

In the incomprehensibility of the Divine nature, this attribute is also to be reconciled with unbounded activity or mobility when it is brought into relation to the creature; and, in relation to the moral creature, with the changeable manifestation of an eternal purpose. Argument is utterly useless here. It is the highest reason to submit to this necessary antinomy or paradox. William Pope Systematic Theology

Thanks for sharing your theory with us.


What place does man have in the equation of ruling the earth, since God have the earth to man?


The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’s;
But the earth He has given to the children of men.
Psalm 115:16



JLB

 

[Fastfredy0]

Do you believe it was God’s will for Adam to disobey him?

YES ... (I think I answered this one)

Aside: Dirty question .... lol ... I have wondered how this part of the puzzle fits. (Deut. 29:29) Eventually, you get to a point where there is a question that you shrug your shoulders.

Following is a write up by a guy that put more thought into it that I could. I agree with it. The part where it says, "Did Adam, for reasons sufficient to him, come to the place cognitively where he wanted to eat the fruit?" I have no idea what Adam's reasons were.

“Was Adam aware of God’s prohibition and warning respecting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil at the moment he ate its fruit? Reformed theology says yes. Did Adam have the capacity and power to do God’s preceptive will respecting the fruit? Reformed theology says yes. Did Adam, for reasons sufficient to him, come to the place cognitively where he wanted to eat the fruit? Reformed theology says yes again. (Reformed theology would also insist at this point, over against Arminianism, precisely because Adam had his reasons, that he was not exercising an “indifferent” will.) Was Adam forced to eat the fruit against his will? Reformed theology would say no. Therefore, because Adam acted knowingly, willingly, spontaneously, for reasons sufficient for him, with no violence being done to his will, Reformed theology insists that he was a free agent in his transgression. But if someone should ask: Was Adam totally free from God’s eternal decree, Reformed theology would say, of course not. Could Adam have done differently? Again, from the viewpoint of the divine decree, the answer is no. To answer these questions any other way is simply to nullify the Scripture’s teaching to the effect that God, who works everything in conformity with his eternal purpose (Ephesians 1:11), purposed before the foundation of the world to save a multitude of sinners who would fall in Adam.” Robert Reymond A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith

 

[Fastfredy0]

Adam was the governor or ruler over the earth, and lost his place of authority to Satan, in which Satan deceived him into obeying him, and thereby became the “god” or ruler of this world.

Technicality .... of little consequence ... Adam was not deceived by Satan (though apparently Eve was) I Timothy 2:14-15

.... anyways

Clarification Question:
In regards to Adam's short rule and Satan's rule of the earth. Was there ever a time that God did not have authority over Adam and Satan in ALL things?

 

[Fastfredy0]

What place does man have in the equation of ruling the earth, since God have the earth to man?

Respectfully, I don't wish to discuss God's Sovereignty further because you will not state your definition of God's Sovereignty. Yeah, we both agree God is sovereign. We both agree the verses God's Sovereignty are true. I've correlated my understanding (tota scriptura), you have not.
It is pointless to discuss something that is not defined. (IMO)

Aside: I think I have addressed anything addressed to me. Sorry if I missed something. Time to watch Marco Polo on Netflix ... where's my soda and chips?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hmmm, guess I will answer the last question first as understanding IMMUTABLE is key to my other responses.

Immutable defined: God does not change. Nothing can be added to and taken away from God.
Bible verses: Malachi 3:6a For I the Lord do not change; I can give 25ish more verses but trying to be brief (Don't want to get into Him changing His mind)
Logic (trying to be short):

But God can/does change, He repented (changed) at the evil He said He would do unto Nineveh Jonah 3:10. So how is this reconciled with what you posted above?

I believe that God reacts to the choices men make therefore God is not static and unable to change at all.

Jeremiah 18:8-10 God has a predetermined course of action in how He deals with men/nations. If a nation repents, God shows mercy. If it will not repent God will not show mercy.

Nineveh was not destroyed in 40 days as God said (Jonah 3:4) does not mean God lied but simply changed His course of action to follow a predetermined course of action in showing mercy to those that obey Him per Jeremiah 18:8. So even though God is still able to change (in following His predetermined course of actions) He remains immutable.

There is a sense in which God can repent/change (react to man) yet still be immutable.

 

[Fastfredy0]

But God can/does change, He repented (changed) at the evil He said He would do unto Nineveh Jonah 3:10. So how is this reconciled with what you posted above?

First, I agree that there are several places in the Bible that it appears that God changed his mind.
There are also places in the bible that state God does not change His mind. (tota scriptura)
Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken and will He not make it good and fulfill it?
Hebrews 6:17 In the same way God, in His desire to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable nature of His purpose, intervened and guaranteed it with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things [His promise and His oath] in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled [to Him] for refuge would have strong encouragement and indwelling strength to hold tightly to the hope set before us.

So, we have verses saying God repents and verses saying God does not repent. Assuming we both agree that God never contradicts himself we must seek a solution.
(Aside: I wish God would make things more plain ... looks over his shoulder for storm cloud with thunderbolt with my name on it)

My contention, is the your examples are anthropomorphisms. God explaining things so we dummies like me can understand.

I picked the first 5 websites to question "Does God change his mind". They all said he does not including a Billy Graham site ... and Billy I believe was a 'free willer'.
Caveat: (open theists believe God changes His mind)

If God changes his mind he lacks knowledge which cannot be.
If God changes his mind then every promise He has made is subject to change.
If God changes his mind His wisdom is cast in doubt.

Other explanations.

Does God Change His Mind?

In recent years, advocates of a theory called open theism have argued that God can and does change and that we can cause that change.

answersingenesis.org

Does God Change His Mind? | Reformed Theological Seminary

Exodus 32:11-18Does God Change His Mind? Exodus, chapters 25 through 40, is a section that teaches Israel how to worship, how God is to be worshiped rightly, and in the middle, in chapter 32, we find this story about idolatry and infidelity to the living God. We've already noted that there are...

rts.edu

Does God Change His Mind?

"To change one's mind," in the New Testament means to repent. When the Bible speaks of my repenting or your repenting, it means that we are called to change our minds or our dispositions with respect to sin—that we are to turn away from evil. Repent is loaded with these kinds of connotations...

www.ligonier.org

Does God Ever Change His Mind?

Billy Graham answers: Will God keep His promise to let me into Heaven?

billygraham.org

Does God change His mind? | GotQuestions.org

Does God change His mind? What does the Bible mean when it says God changed His mind?

www.gotquestions.org

I believe that God reacts to the choices men make therefore God is not static and unable to change at all.

To the degree that is true, to that degree one controls the ALMIGHTY... to that degree God is reactive, not proactive... to that degree God's wisdom has determined that man, whose fathers is the devil, should determine events in order to achieve the best outcome. (IMO and assuming the all wise God wished for the 'best outcome')

There is a sense in which God can repent/change (react to man) yet still be immutable.

This is a logic fallacy. "A" cannot be "not A".
"Absolute control (Sovereignty)" cannot be "not Absolute control (Sovereignty)" (this assumes the definition of sovereignty is absolute control)

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not a Calvinist nor have I said God takes away man's free will. Man does have free will given him by God and God allows man to use that gift of free will. And God can take man's free will choices to accomplish His own will thereby NOT violate man's free will. Hence God has control over all that happens by either decreeing it to happen, by allowing it to happen or by desiring it to happen.

I wish we would be very clear in our conversations.

If God accomplishes HIS will, the He IS taking away man's free will.
Both wills cannot be satisfied --- just one.

God can USE man's free will to accomplish His plan...this might be what you mean.

I DO agree that God has control over all, but then you use terms I'm not familiar with.
"GOD DECREES THINGS TO HAPPEN" --- This is what the reformed/calvinists believe.

"GOD ALLOWS THINGS TO HAPPEN" ---- This is true and all Christians agree with this.

"GOD DESIRES SOMETHING TO HAPPEN" --- Could you explain this better?
If God desires something to happen and acts on that desire...then man's free will is erased/abolished.

God's permissive will allowed Joseph's brothers to plot against him and carry out those plans, yet God in His providence was able to take the evil they meant and turn it into good thereby God was still in sovereign control and did not violate their free will.
Genesis 50:20

You mention permissive will...Is that a biblical term??
I think you mean that God ALLOWED Joseph's brothers to plot against him....etc.
And I do agree with how you explained about the Joseph story.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hmmm, guess I will answer the last question first as understanding IMMUTABLE is key to my other responses.

Immutable defined: God does not change. Nothing can be added to and taken away from God.
Bible verses: Malachi 3:6a For I the Lord do not change; I can give 25ish more verses but trying to be brief (Don't want to get into Him changing His mind)

A couple of comments:
God cannot change, you're right.
But how would you know if we take something away or add something?
Do we know EVERYTHING about God?
Absolutely not.
We only know about God what He has allowed us to know, or what He believes we need to know.

Paul said:
Romans 11:33-34
Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?

1 Corinthians 2:11
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

Where is a verse saying that God has glory because we have no real free will?
Is there a verse saying that God is glorified from within Himself?
I really can't remember.

Logic (trying to be short):

If God’s essence be changed, he either increaseth or diminisheth.” Whatsoever is changed, doth either gain by receiving something larger and greater than it had in itself before, or gains nothing by being changed. If the former, then it receives more than itself, more than it had in itself before. The Divine nature cannot be increased; for whatsoever receives anything than what it had in itself before, must necessarily receive it from another, because nothing can give to itself that which it hath not. But God cannot receive from another what he hath not already, because whatsoever other things possess is derived from him, and, therefore, contained in him, as the fountain contains the virtue in itself which it conveys to the streams; so that God cannot gain anything.[/QUIOTE]

Fred, the above is the writing of a person.
Quite honestly,,,I find quotes of human persons more confusing than quotes from the bible.
I had to teach from the CCC at times and, frankly, it's a rather confusing book and I much prefer to use the bible.

Can you quote something from the bible that reflects your statement above?
You didn't even put a source. You must, by forum rules, state the source of anything that does not come from your own mind.

So, back to the dog and you and I. If God cannot change then we cannot add or take away from Him. All we have was His and still is His (1 Corinthians 4:7; Luke 17:10). Thus, when we show him love we are only reflecting/showing His glory; we are not adding to His glory because He cannot change.

I agree.
When we show God love....we are reflecting His glory and when God shows us HIS love, He is also reflecting His glory. I NEVER said we add to his glory...

That would be the calvinist view.
By decreeing some to be damned it is said that God is showing His glory.
HOW that is, must be a real mystery to every other Christian believer.

You mentioned 1 Cor 4:7
I don't see what that has to do with this conversation.

Luke 17:10
Ditto

We both glorify God. The subtle difference between you and I (IMO) is our understanding of what causes us to glorify God.
I believe God gave me the desire to glorify him and thus what I do is a consequence of what he did in me. Thus God does not change for I am returning to Him worship he put in me.

Are you saying that God had to PUT IN YOU the desire to glorify Him?
God put into every Christian the desire to glorify Him....
but, of course, you mean something different, don't you?

I glorify God of my own free will....
He had to MAKE YOU glorify Him?
How is that glory?

This is glory:
2 Corinthians 4:13-15
But having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, “I believed, therefore I spoke,” we also believe, therefore we also speak, knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and will present us with you. For all things are for your sakes, so that the grace which is spreading to more and more people may cause the giving of thanks to abound to the glory of God.

You believe (IMO) that you are, to some extent, glorifying God independent of God's influence. God now has more Glory than He once had, you added to it. He is not what He was, he is therefore MUTABLE which conflicts for God's statement that He is IMMUTABLE. If God can change, then all His promises are suspect.

Sorry, that is almost as short as I could do. I can understand if you think it mombo-jumbo.

Glorifying God does not change His immutability.
Already replied to this....above.

In the interest of brevity, you don't have to read the following:

Arminian Viewpoint of Immutability of God
Freewill theists believe God has the potential for change in some respects. For instance, God perfectly relates to creatures in on-going dynamic interaction. For God to fail to change in relation to us as the relationship changes would be less than perfect. Thus, though the divine nature is immutable, God can change in thoughts, will and emotions. For Freewill theism God is steadfast and faithful but is able to change in certain respects. A God who experiences our love, or lack of it, in dynamic relationships cannot be completely unchangeable. John Sanders

In the incomprehensibility of the Divine nature, this attribute is also to be reconciled with unbounded activity or mobility when it is brought into relation to the creature; and, in relation to the moral creature, with the changeable manifestation of an eternal purpose. Argument is utterly useless here. It is the highest reason to submit to this necessary antinomy or paradox. William Pope Systematic Theology

Who's William Pope?
What is antinomy?

Why should I care what William Pope says?
Can't YOU say it?

Give me some bible verses so I could know what you're speaking about.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

First, I agree that there are several places in the Bible that it appears that God changed his mind.
There are also places in the bible that state God does not change His mind. (tota scriptura)
Numbers 23:19 “God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken and will He not make it good and fulfill it?
Hebrews 6:17 In the same way God, in His desire to show to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable nature of His purpose, intervened and guaranteed it with an oath, 18 so that by two unchangeable things [His promise and His oath] in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled [to Him] for refuge would have strong encouragement and indwelling strength to hold tightly to the hope set before us.

So, we have verses saying God repents and verses saying God does not repent. Assuming we both agree that God never contradicts himself we must seek a solution.
(Aside: I wish God would make things more plain ... looks over his shoulder for storm cloud with thunderbolt with my name on it)

My contention, is the your examples are anthropomorphisms. God explaining things so we dummies like me can understand.

I picked the first 5 websites to question "Does God change his mind". They all said he does not including a Billy Graham site ... and Billy I believe was a 'free willer'.
Caveat: (open theists believe God changes His mind)

If God changes his mind he lacks knowledge which cannot be.
If God changes his mind then every promise He has made is subject to change.
If God changes his mind His wisdom is cast in doubt.

Other explanations.

Does God Change His Mind?

In recent years, advocates of a theory called open theism have argued that God can and does change and that we can cause that change.

answersingenesis.org

Does God Change His Mind? | Reformed Theological Seminary

Exodus 32:11-18Does God Change His Mind? Exodus, chapters 25 through 40, is a section that teaches Israel how to worship, how God is to be worshiped rightly, and in the middle, in chapter 32, we find this story about idolatry and infidelity to the living God. We've already noted that there are...

rts.edu

Does God Change His Mind?

"To change one's mind," in the New Testament means to repent. When the Bible speaks of my repenting or your repenting, it means that we are called to change our minds or our dispositions with respect to sin—that we are to turn away from evil. Repent is loaded with these kinds of connotations...

www.ligonier.org

Does God Ever Change His Mind?

Billy Graham answers: Will God keep His promise to let me into Heaven?

billygraham.org

Does God change His mind? | GotQuestions.org

Does God change His mind? What does the Bible mean when it says God changed His mind?

www.gotquestions.org

To the degree that is true, to that degree one controls the ALMIGHTY... to that degree God is reactive, not proactive... to that degree God's wisdom has determined that man, whose fathers is the devil, should determine events in order to achieve the best outcome. (IMO and assuming the all wise God wished for the 'best outcome')


This is a logic fallacy. "A" cannot be "not A".
"Absolute control (Sovereignty)" cannot be "not Absolute control (Sovereignty)" (this assumes the definition of sovereignty is absolute control)

God does not change His mind, He has foreknowledge therefore does not have to change His mind. I was pointing out how God changes His course of action.

Clearly from Jonah 3:10 God DID change His course of action to follow a predetermined course of action per Jeremiah 18:8. Nineveh chose to repent, God therefore followed His predetermined course of action in showing mercy to them and not destroy them as He said He would. Therefore what action God takes depends on what man chooses to do in either obeying or disobeying God.

On judgement day, the type of life a man chooses to live (righteous or unrighteous) will determine the sentence God hands to each person romans 2:6. God of course will not hand out random predetermined sentences apart from how men choose to live their lives.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I wish we would be very clear in our conversations.

If God accomplishes HIS will, the He IS taking away man's free will.
Both wills cannot be satisfied --- just one.

God can USE man's free will to accomplish His plan...this might be what you mean.

I DO agree that God has control over all, but then you use terms I'm not familiar with.
"GOD DECREES THINGS TO HAPPEN" --- This is what the reformed/calvinists believe.

"GOD ALLOWS THINGS TO HAPPEN" ---- This is true and all Christians agree with this.

"GOD DESIRES SOMETHING TO HAPPEN" --- Could you explain this better?
If God desires something to happen and acts on that desire...then man's free will is erased/abolished.




You mention permissive will...Is that a biblical term??
I think you mean that God ALLOWED Joseph's brothers to plot against him....etc.
And I do agree with how you explained about the Joseph story.

God accomplished His will with Pharaoh (Romans 9:17) and did not violate nor take away Pharaoh's free will. God used Pharaoh's choice to be stubborn and rebellious to accomplish His will.

Therefore God does use the choices men make to accomplish His own will. Since it was Pharaoh's free will choice God did not CAUSE Pharoah to disobey against his own will therefore Pharaoh cannot blame his actions on anyone but himself.

God's decretive will is when He makes a decree. God decreed the world into existence and no man can stop or change what God decrees.

God's preceptive will is what He desires, wishes man would do. 2 Peter 3:9 God desires all men come to repentance and those that do are following God's preceptive will. Of course man can go against God's preceptive will and not do as God desires (Matthew 23:37) and will be eternally punished.

Therefore all that happens falls within the control of God's decretive, preceptive or permissive will.

 

[JLB]

YES ... (I think I answered this one)

Thanks for your honest answer.

This answers a lot questions for me, as to why Calvinist’s believe some of the things they do.


JLB