Unconditional Election

[Bruce.Leiter]

Yes sir. Amen.


Amen Bruce. I'm with you.


Just because God loves all men and wants them to be saved, doesn't mean all men will be saved... because men love what they love, and many believe in OSAS and so they think they can live in sin, and selfish pleasures and still be saved.

I have met many people who believe in OSAS, since I was a Calvinist pastor in seven Christian Reformed churches and a member of six more. Our catechism says what Paul says that our Christian life (marked especially by prayer and good works resulting from his grace's work) must be one of gratitude to the Triune God of our salvation. If we truly believe, we were GUILTY, God forgives us through his great gift of GRACE, and we then live lives of GRATITUDE.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I have met many people who believe in OSAS, since I was a Calvinist pastor in seven Christian Reformed churches and a member of six more. Our catechism says what Paul says that our Christian life (marked especially by prayer and good works resulting from his grace's work) must be one of gratitude to the Triune God of our salvation. If we truly believe, we were GUILTY, God forgives us through his great gift of GRACE, and we then live lives of GRATITUDE.

There's nothing wrong with OSAS, but there's everything wrong with OBAB - once blessed, always blessed. Salvation is given, blessing is earned. Salvation is a free gift, blessing is contingent upon obedience, disobedience will result in curses, you'll end up where you were before your salvation, and even worse.

And the Lord will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.’ (Deut. 28:68)
He goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation. (Matt. 12:45)
That servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. (Lk. 12:47-48)

 

[Whatever]

As does John 3:16 apply to everyone.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

No it does not. It only applies to whoever believes and you know not everybody believes.
And as you have said, "believes" is in the present tense which means "goes on believing."

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Romans 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

[JLB]

Theoretically and ideally, it's "taught through His apostles"; but practically and historically, it's taught through the church, the clergy and perhaps social media influencers. You wanna be taught by the Lord directly, you must live by the his words and see how it unfolds in reality, be a doer, not just a hearer. You can only understand from firsthand experience.

The New Testament scriptures are the teachings and instructions of the Lord Jesus Christ to the Church.

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. Matthew 28:18-20

• teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;

 

[JLB]

I have met many people who believe in OSAS, since I was a Calvinist pastor in seven Christian Reformed churches and a member of six more. Our catechism says what Paul says that our Christian life (marked especially by prayer and good works resulting from his grace's work) must be one of gratitude to the Triune God of our salvation. If we truly believe, we were GUILTY, God forgives us through his great gift of GRACE, and we then live lives of GRATITUDE.

Are you still a Calvinist?

 

[JLB]

It only applies to whoever believes and you know not everybody believes.

Not everyone believes. Agreed

 

[JLB]

No it does not.

Who is excluded from God’s love in this passage?


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

[Consecrated Life]

Because humans are totally depraved and cannot choose God on their own, God elects some for salvation based on His sovereign will, not on any merit or action of the individual.
JLB

The Scripture states that it is God's "sovereign will", is that no person should perish .

2Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God's sovereign will cannot be both that salvation is obtained only by His choosing some, juxtaposed to His "unwillingness" that no person should perish.
An Almighty God can elect all if His will is that none should perish, just as easily as He can elect some so that some don't perish .

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;

The question is, are these things dutifully and faithfully taught? Or adulterated with man’s traditions and propagandas? Hadn’t both Jesus and Paul warned about end time apostasy, people falling away from faith? Church leaders turning their congregations down with unbiblical teachings, as a result people leaving church?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

There's nothing wrong with OSAS, but there's everything wrong with OBAB - once blessed, always blessed. Salvation is given, blessing is earned. Salvation is a free gift, blessing is contingent upon obedience, disobedience will result in curses, you'll end up where you were before your salvation, and even worse.

And the Lord will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.’ (Deut. 28:68)
He goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation. (Matt. 12:45)
That servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. (Lk. 12:47-48)

Your last passage is at the end of a parable about the need to us to be ready and working for Jesus when he comes again:
Luk 12:32 “Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
Luk 12:33 Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys.
Luk 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Luk 12:35 “Stay dressed for action and keep your lamps burning,
Luk 12:36 and be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the wedding feast, so that they may open the door to him at once when he comes and knocks....
Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
Luk 12:44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.

 

[Whatever]

The Scripture states that it is God's "sovereign will", is that no person should perish .

That is easygesis of the passage.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance

The Lord is not willing that any of us (that Peter is writing to) should perish.

 

[JLB]

The question is, are these things dutifully and faithfully taught? Or adulterated with man’s traditions and propagandas? Hadn’t both Jesus and Paul warned about end time apostasy, people falling away from faith? Church leaders turning their congregations down with unbiblical teachings, as a result people leaving church?

The truth is, Jesus commissioned His apostles to teach all things that He taught them.

 

[JLB]

The Scripture states that it is God's "sovereign will", is that no person should perish .

"sovereign will" is not mentioned in that verse or in any verse in scripture.

 

[Whatever]

Who is excluded from God’s love in this passage?

It doesn't mention people. It says the cosmos.

God so loved the Kosmos that He sent His Son so that every person who believes shall not perish . . .

John 10:15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

Jesus tells us Himself that He does not lay down His life for everybody; only sheep, not tares.

John 17:2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

To as many as the Father have given Him and no more.
Isaiah 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

God did not send His word out to save every human being in the world. Just those given to the Son.

I don't care about who is loved or not loved. It is about who is saved - everyone given to the Son.

 

[JLB]

It doesn't mention people. It says the cosmos.

I see so God sent His Son to save the cosmos, but not unsaved people?

Is that really what you believe?

 

[Whatever]

The question is, are these things dutifully and faithfully taught? Or adulterated with man’s traditions and propagandas? Hadn’t both Jesus and Paul warned about end time apostasy, people falling away from faith?

So are you trying to say it is vain to try to learn what the Bible teaches because it all has been adulterated?
As far as it being that way because it is the end times:

2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you . . .

I believe Peter is talking about all the false prophets in the Old Testament like Balaam.

Jeremiah 6:13 "Because from the least of them even to the greatest of them, Everyone is given to covetousness; And from the prophet even to the priest, Everyone deals falsely.

Ezekiel 13:9 "My hand will be against the prophets who envision futility and who divine lies; they shall not be in the assembly of My people, nor be written in the record of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter into the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

Israel in Jesus' time was split up into Pharisee's, Sadducee's, and Essenes.
The Essenes are not directly mentioned in the Bible, but they were a Jewish sect during the Second Temple period, known for their strict observance of the Law and communal living. They are often associated with the Dead Sea Scrolls, which provide insights into their beliefs and practices.

There were also Zealot's at that time.
In the Bible, a zealot refers to a member of a Jewish political group known for their passionate opposition to Roman rule and their desire for Jewish independence. One of Jesus' disciples, Simon, is specifically identified as "Simon the Zealot."

I think it was the Zealots this verse is referring to:
John 6:15 Therefore when Jesus perceived that they were about to come and take Him by force to make Him king, He departed again to the mountain by Himself alone.

Anyhow, there have always been false teachers.

 

[Consecrated Life]

"sovereign will" is not mentioned in that verse or in any verse in scripture.

God's "willingness" is not His will ?
What then is God's "willingness" ?

2Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise,...... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The truth is, Jesus commissioned His apostles to teach all things that He taught them.

Who's qualified as an apostle, and how you know it? There's this new apostolic movement, these worship leaders call themselves modern day apostles, does any of them count?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

So are you trying to say it is vain to try to learn what the Bible teaches because it all has been adulterated?
As far as it being that way because it is the end times:

I'm trying to say don't be out of touch and acting like an AI bot. If you agree that we're in the end times, then the top priorities should be edifying, encouraging and preparing the church.

 

[JLB]

Who's qualified as an apostle, and how you know it? There's this new apostolic movement, these worship leaders call themselves modern day apostles, does any of them count?

Those whom the Lord has chosen to be such are indeed what He has called them to be; whether apostles or prophets or teachers, pastors or evangelists…

Those who are false apostles will be made known as well.


That which is hidden shall be revealed.