Unconditional Election

[Bruce.Leiter]

I believe the scriptures about each of those topics, not what man has twisted these biblical truths to mean.

Here is a basic elementary truth from the scriptures, lets see if we agree on it.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

• For God so loved the world

Do you believe God loves the unsaved people of the world? My answer is yes!

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

Do you believe God sent His son into the world so that the unsaved people of the world might be saved through Him? My answer is yes!


Can you answer these two elementary questions?

Yes, God has universal love for all humans.
However, I also believe the following verses:
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”
People in that same world who fail to believe in Jesus as the way to the Father's acceptance are condemned. Context of verses is very important for interpretation.
Do you believe that God, our Creator-Judge condemns people who don't believe in God's love in Christ their whole lives, as the following verses say clearly?

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Pastors and teachers that teach the doctrine of Christ are good, as Paul said.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

Those who teach the doctrines of man, only lead you away from Christ.

Following the personal doctrines of man only leads to division (denominations).

• that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,”

If we are not to follow the personal doctrines of Paul, Peter or Apollos, then how much more the doctrines of men today.

Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you. Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:10-13

Denominations have resulted from several sources: different countries and languages, differences over petty ideas, differences over the Bible's basic beliefs, personalities, and self-centeredness.

 

[JLB]

Yes, God has universal love for all humans.

Yes sir. Amen.

However, I also believe the following verses:
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”

Amen Bruce. I'm with you.


Just because God loves all men and wants them to be saved, doesn't mean all men will be saved... because men love what they love, and many believe in OSAS and so they think they can live in sin, and selfish pleasures and still be saved.

 

[electedbyHim]

It's all explained in the scripture I gave you.

Here it is again -

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal? 1 Corinthians 3:1-4

• For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

Do you understand what the scriptures are saying?

• I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it

Maybe you should dedicate this year to reading and studying the scriptures and what Jesus taught us through His Apostles, rather than what other men write. Just a suggestion.

Opinions.

 

[Free]

Maybe you should dedicate this year to reading and studying the scriptures and what Jesus taught us through His Apostles, rather than what other men write. Just a suggestion.

Please stop with comments such as this, as they are rather condescending, prideful, and unbiblical. You're placing your own understanding, and therefore yourself, above all the thousands upon thousands upon thousands of all who have come before. Not only are we nowhere taught to come to an understanding of Scripture in complete isolation from all other believers, we have been given teachers and our understanding is that of seeing "in a mirror dimly." We are supposed to be living in community, which also means understanding Scripture in community. Going off on our own is precisely how cults and all manner of heresy start.

It's rather hypocritical that you'll believe a "prophet" quickly enough, when it's nothing more than "Christian" fortune telling, but then won't listen to any actual sound teaching that comes from someone else.

 

[Whatever]

Jesus was speaking to Jews

The word apply to everybody.
John 8:47 He who is of God hears God's words . . .

Like you said, people today believe they are saved because they used their free will and don't want to accept Jesus' own words that nobody can come to Him unless the Father drags them.

 

[Whatever]

Pastors and teachers that teach the doctrine of Christ are good, as Paul said.

What do you think the "doctrines of Christ" are except the things that Jesus taught?
What did He teach?

John 8:47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

You have to be of God in order to hear His words. Who is that?
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

Not everybody is one of His sheep.
John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

He lays down His life for the sheep, not the tares.
John 10:15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

You believe that Jesus laid down his life for everybody without exception and that everybody without exception can use their own free will to choose to believe and obey the gospel. I don't see that anywhere in Jesus' teachings.

 

[JLB]

Opinions.

Yes, Paul was qualified to state what he did as an apostle of Jesus Christ.

Please stop with comments such as this, as they are rather condescending, prideful, and unbiblical.

How is suggesting a person should dedicate himself to reading the scriptures unbiblical or prideful?

That absolutely makes no sense.

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Timothy 2:15

 

[JLB]

The word apply to everybody.
John 8:47 He who is of God hears God's words . . .

Like you said, people today believe they are saved because they used their free will and don't want to accept Jesus' own words that nobody can come to Him unless the Father drags them.

Here is what I said...

Jesus was speaking to Jews who believed and thought they were saved because they were unconditionally elected, being Abraham's descendant's.

However their deeds were not right. -- You do the deeds of your father.

The same way many today claim they are elect but can't stand to hear His word, but rather they want the words of man.

Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.



Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.” John 8:31-47

 

[JLB]

What do you think the "doctrines of Christ" are except the things that Jesus taught?
What did He teach?

The New Testament is the doctrine of Christ as taught by His apostles.

 

[Free]

How is suggesting a person should dedicate himself to reading the scriptures unbiblical or prideful?

That absolutely makes no sense.

That wouldn’t make sense, but that isn’t what I was referring to, which is obvious when you include the full context.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I dunno ?‍

I enjoy reading scripture. I enjoy praying ?. But…

I believe that God equips His elect with what is needed for life and for godliness…

Even if they are illiterate or isolated from a solid church ️. I definitely believe that this has been the case, historically…

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Opinions.

A forum is a public place to express different opinions.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The New Testament is the doctrine of Christ as taught by His apostles.

No, it's the new covenant God promised to come.

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” (Jer. 31:31-34)

Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matt. 26:28)

 

[hawkman]

Post edited . Thread bans next ? .

TOS 1.2 Those who identify themselves as Christians will be held accountable to conduct themselves as such. If they are truly governed by the Holy Spirit, they will not continually engage in goading, mocking, insulting, trolling, berating or inciting other members to anger and resentment. They will post in a Spirit of kindness and respect, even if there are doctrinal disagreements, and be quick to reconcile if differences of opinion should get heated. Disciplinary actions will be taken against those whom staff regards to be naming the name of Christ and yet are holding the truth in unrighteousness.

 

[JLB]

No, it's the new covenant God promised to come.

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” (Jer. 31:31-34)

Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matt. 26:28)

I don’t understand your point here.

I had stated the doctrine of Christ is what is contained in the New Testament as taught through His Apostles.

New Testament is the New Covenant.

In the New Testament we are taught by the Lord directly as John states…

But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. 1 John 2:27

This is what Abraham was called to…

 

[Whatever]

The New Testament is the doctrine of Christ as taught by His apostles.

Yes, and the apostles never say "people are saved by believing with their free will."
It does say "believe and you will be saved."
Then free will theists come along and add "believe by your free will."

The Bible does tell us why and how people believe. You have been shown this over and over again, so no use going over it again.

 

[Whatever]

Here is what I said...

And that doesn't change the fact that it can and does refer to everybody.
Here is how the ESV puts it.
John 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God.

Other translations use:
Anyone who belongs to God will listen
Someone who belongs to God accepts
The person who belongs to God ·accepts
Anyone whose Father is God listens
The one who is of God hears

Jesus might be referring to Jews at that moment, but it applies to every human.

 

[JLB]

And that doesn't change the fact that it can and does refer to everybody.
Here is how the ESV puts it.
John 8:47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God.

Other translations use:
Anyone who belongs to God will listen
Someone who belongs to God accepts
The person who belongs to God ·accepts
Anyone whose Father is God listens
The one who is of God hears

Jesus might be referring to Jews at that moment, but it applies to every human.

As does John 3:16 apply to everyone.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I don’t understand your point here.

I had stated the doctrine of Christ is what is contained in the New Testament as taught through His Apostles.

New Testament is the New Covenant.

Theoretically and ideally, it's "taught through His apostles"; but practically and historically, it's taught through the church, the clergy and perhaps social media influencers. You wanna be taught by the Lord directly, you must live by the his words and see how it unfolds in reality, be a doer, not just a hearer. You can only understand from firsthand experience.