Is Hell Real?

[Tri Unity]

I cannot upload 25+ years of study, world travel, personal discussions with theologians, viewings of sacred documents, etc. into your head.

Hi Osgiliath,

Firstly, If you have read as widely as you say, I offer my respects and appreciation. I have read most of these authors (not all), but the ones I am familiar with I would suggest do teach eternal punishment. Do they also teach universalism? Some appear to; but you need to reconcile their teachings on eternal punishment with any other teachings. You might be confused about what is meant by "universalism". Following is a list of quotes from the earliest fathers who refute your contentions:

Epistle of Barnabas (70 AD)
“The way of darkness is crooked, and it is full of cursing. It is the way to eternal death with punishment.†(Chapter 20)

Letter to Diognetus (130 AD)
“You should fear what is truly death, which is reserved for those who shall be condemned to the eternal fire, which shall afflict those even to the end that are committed to it.†(Chapter 10)

The Martyrdom of Polycarp (135 AD)
“They despised all of the torments of this world, redeeming themselves from eternal punishment by [the suffering of] a single hour. For this reason the fire of their savage executioners appeared cool to them. For they kept before their view escape from that fire which is eternal and never shall be quenched.†(Chapter 2)

The Second Apology of Justin Martyr (160)
“The unjust and intemperate will be punished in eternal fire.†(Chapter 1)

“there shall be punishment in eternal fire inflicted upon those who do not live temperately and conformably to right reason.†(Chapter 2)

Apology of Athenagoras (175 AD)
“If they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, on in fireâ€

Theophilus of Antioch to Autolycus (180 AD)
“For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire.†(Book 1, Chapter 14)

Irenaeus - Against Heresies (189 AD)
“The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . It is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever.†(Book, 4, Chapter 28:2)

Clement of Alexandria (195 AD)
“They are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire.†(Fragments)

Apology of Tertullian (197 AD)
“all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire--that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility†(Chapter 28:12)

Hippolytus – Against the Greeks (225 AD)
“The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain.†(Chapter 3)

Felix Minucius (226 AD)
“That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them.â€(“Octavius†34:12–5:3)

Cyprian of Carthage (252 AD)
“to send the guilty to Gehenna, and to set on fire our persecutors with the perpetual burning of a penal fire, but to pay to us the reward of our faith and devotion!†("To Thibaris" 55:10)

Osgiliath, you can see from these quotes that the earliest fathers all unanimously stayed with biblical terms of eternal fire and eternal punishment. These fathers were scattered form Rome to Palestine to Carthage to Alexandria to France to Syria to Persia… There were no doctrines growing up in Rome that were different to Alexandria as you (and Schaff) maintain. I still believe, however, that these references in the bible are ultimately metaphors, but what is undeniable is that these fathers stayed with the biblical language. To paint the Fathers as Universalists is not accurate. These ideas are taken and distorted by Universalists to vouch for their doctrines. The term salvation only applied to those who have had their sins washed clean in the blood of the lamb.

Tri

 

[jasoncran]

Re: The Global lake of fire will burn Satan and sinners forever until they are destro

I used to be deceived by the satanic beleif of eternal torment. I used to believe that God was a evil tyrant worse than Hitler even worse than Satan even and he would burn sinners for a million years and to prove this I would quote that bible verse in Revelation that says that sinners burn in the presence of the Lamb and the presence of the angels forever and forever and I believed that forever meant without end. But God is full of grace and mercy and He let me know in His word that forever doesn't always mean without end in the Bible.

• In the O.T. Jews could choose to be slaves of other Jews forever but forever didn't mean for all eternity. Forever meant until they died.

then you shall take an awl, and put it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your slave forever. And to your female slave you shall do the same.Deuteronomy 15:17 E.S.V.​

• Hannah dedicated her firstborn son Samuel to work in the earthly temple forever but this didn't mean for all eternity. Forever meant for his whole life.

But Hannah didn't go up; for she said to her husband, "Not until the child is weaned; then I will bring him, that he may appear before Yahweh, and stay there forever."1 Samuel 1:22 W.E.B.​

• Johna said that he was in the whale forever but in this case forever only meant 3 days. So maybe when Revelation says that sinners are going to be burned forever day and night than this is just talking about one literal day and one literal night. Satan is going to be tortured the worst and longest of all the sinners but God even loves Satan and doesn't want to see him suffer for too long so God will even put Satan out of his misery and destroy him after a while.

I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever: yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. Jonah 2:6 W.E.B.​

• The Bible calls some hills and mountains everlasting and then it says that God destroyed them. So guess what everlasting doesn't have to mean without end.
  

  ​

He stood and measured the earth; he looked and shook the nations; then the eternal mountains were scattered; the everlasting hills sank low. His were the everlasting ways. Habakkuk 3:6 E.S.V.

• The evil people who lived in Sodom and Ghomorah were burned with everlasting fire than came from heaven.
• Both Jude and Peter wrote that the everlasting fire that turnerd the sinners of Sodom and Gomorah to ashes is an example of what is going to happen to sinners who will be judged at the end.​

just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1:7 N.A.S.B.

1. Jesus the Divine Offspring of the Eternal Father comes back a visable 2nd coming. Not a make believe secret rapture. Jesus is going to be in His full glory and all the sinful humans are going to see him in his full glory and die like when Moses asked the Son of God to see His glory in the O.T. and he told him you can't see my face and live.

The only reason Christians are going to survive is because Jesus is going to give us glorifed bodies. So after Jesus resurrects all the dead in Christ who have been resting in peace body and soul in their graves he's going to take us all to heaven at the same time like Jesus promised in John 14 1-3.
The earth is going to be left desolate for a thousand years only with Satan and the fallen angels all alone waiting for their fate with noone to tempt.
Then all of the Christians who ever lived are going to come back to earth inside of the New Jerusalem and Jesus is going to resurrect all the unrepentent sinners who ever lived and they are going to get judged.
All the sinners including Satan and the fallen angels are going to kneel down and worship the Son of God to the glory of God the Father before their sentence is carried out. They will do this out of freewill because they realize that they are not fit for eternal life because God did everything to save them but they were unwilling and they will welcome the 2nd death being tortured by fire until they are devoured out of existence.

Adam was a complete human being before God breathed in his nostrils the breath of life while he was lieing there lifeless with a mortal spirit inside a mortal body. God breathed His holy spirit in man can he came to life. God's spirit keeps all created beings alive even satan and his angels.​

God promised Adam as long as He obeys Him he will live forever because Adam had continual access to the tree of life.​

This is life eternal that Jesus resurrects us and gives us glorified bodies at his 2nd coming and takes us to heaven so we can eat the tree of life.​

Heaven is a real place and humans need real bodies to go there. Heaven is not a make believe place where magical ghosts can somehow survive without their bodies and float around spooking God's angels.​

God never created human spirits to exist outside of human bodies. Christians and nonchristians who died dead saints and dead sinners are sleeping peacefully unconsiously and dreamlessly waiting for their perspective resurrections.​

I have to believe that God knew those peoples hearts that they never were going to change and were going to lead other people astray and that's why God chose to kill all these people in the O.T. I'm sure getting stoned is painful. It's going to be more painful for Satan and his angels and the rest of the sinners on the day of judgement because God is going to stone them with flaiming stones on fire and sulfer and stuff like that like how God destroyed the samaratians. I'm sure it was painful for Korah and his family to get dropped in some hot lava. All the sinners who ever died are resting peacefully waiting for the 2nd resurrection.​

Jesus always said when he comes back he is going to give us our reward some are going to heaven and some are going to be burned up after the judgement.​

I don't know how people can think that God can send people to be burned before the judgment.​

I don't know how people can think that people are going to get burned before satan is going to get burned. Dont you know that Jesus said that hell is going to be made for Satan. He's the main event and special guest the main person who deservers torturing. Surle noone is going to be burning and tortured before satan.​

​

assumption and error one. i never said the lake fire is now.


number 2 is that i used to be like you. i was a jw. uh where satan is there will be souls who die the second death. one cant get aroud that.
​

 

[SonByAdoption]

Gehenna lake of fire that will burn the whole earth/trash pit destroy satan&sinners

actuall hades has tarturus(the area for the wicked) the lysian fields for the good. .

Weird your make believe doctrine is so weird and strange to me and so foriegn to the Bible. Hades in Greek and Sheol in Hebrews means the grave. Everybody goes to the same place. Everybody is sleeping waiting for their resurrection.

If Jacob knew about an immortal soul going to a happy make believe place than why was he so sad?

All his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him, but he refused to be comforted. He said, "For I will go down to Sheol to my son mourning." His father wept for him.Genesis 37:35 W.E.B.

If King Hezekiah believed in the same make believe place for good dead people than why he so said when God said he would die?

"Behold, for peace I had great anguish, but you have in love for my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption; for you have cast all my sins behind your back.

18For Sheol[Grave/Hades] can't praise you. Death can't celebrate you. Those who go down into the pit can't hope for your truth.19The living, the living, he shall praise you, as I do this day..." Isaiah 38:17-19

Tarturus the hell where the angels are being held is the earth. I don't mean under the earth. I mean the whole earth. This world is hell for the angels. They have been to heaven but now they can never go back because they sinned.

Before Jesus died on the cross Satan and his angels were free to leave earth whenever they wanted but after Jesus died the fallen angels are stuck here and they can not leave. This earth is tarturus.

"So be glad, heavens, and those who live in them! How terrible it is for the earth and the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, filled with rage, knowing that his time is short!""Revelation 12:12 I.S.V.

gehenna is the area that was trash pit outside of the city of jerusalem where trash was burned. its not the lake of fire.

that isnt gehenna.

If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna.W.E.B. Matthew 5:29 W.E.B.

Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. Matthew 10:28 W.E.B.

O serpents, O vipers' brood, how are you to escape condemnation to Gehenna?Matthew 23:33 W.N.T.

1. When Jesus Comes again he will symotamiously kill all the sinners and receive all the Christians and take all the Christians to heaven for 1000 years.
2. After the thousand years all the Christians will come back with Jesus flying in the New Jerusalem and the New Jerusalem will land of earth.
3. Then Jesus resurrects all the unrepentent sinners who ever lived and they will soround the city like they are going to attack but Jesus stopps them in their tracts.
4. Their lives flash before their eyes and they realize how good God is so they bow to Jesus before their sentence is carried out.
5. Jesus burns all the sinners and the whole world out side of the New Jerusalem and then He recreates the earth after all the sinners including satan and his angels are destroyed

Yes Gehenna is a burning trash heap outside the city just like you said. Gehenna = worldwide lake of fire.

God can burn and kill and utterly destroy spirit beings. I don't know why your J.W. friends have made a rule that God cant.

God did the impossible. He gave birth to a Son equal to Himself. His Son created the universe. Then when the time came God took away His Son's divine powers and His Son's immortality so His Son could die like a mortal.

So if God the Father could take away the divine powers and immortaity of a Divine being equal to Himself with an unlimited nature so this being could die than why couldn't God burn up and utterly destroy Satan who is only a created being with a limited nature

 

[SpagLard]

I can quote you 54 scriptures from the Bible that describes hell and its eternal torment

"Describe" yes, as it is descriptive language,.. symbolic imagery.

The big trouble is not the language of Scripture,
it is modern people failing to see how the imagery is symbolic,
how the words are used figuratively, to illustrate something invisible or hard-to-understand
with actual examples everyone can relate to.
(ever burned yourself? yep that hurts.. now imagine that sensation forever and ever)

Please use some logical discernment here...
Which is worse : Physical PAIN (actual fire, torment) , or Spiritual Damnation (Being Cut off from God. )

Now, I don’t think physical suffering is the worse kind of suffering.
We know that when Jesus was on the cross He took and an awful lot of abuse
He was spit on and mocked. They pushed sharp thorns down into His head,
shredded His back with the cat-o’-nine-tails, drove the nails in and the spear.
He was even deserted by His own disciples.

The physical suffering was great. They even plucked the beard out of His face.
But you never hear the LordJesus complaining about any of that.

Rather, the peak of His agony and His suffering is when He cries out,
“My God, my God why has thou forsaken me?”

 

[BornAgain]

"Describe" yes, as it is descriptive language,.. symbolic imagery.

The big trouble is not the language of Scripture,
it is modern people failing to see how the imagery is symbolic,
how the words are used figuratively, to illustrate something invisible or hard-to-understand
with actual examples everyone can relate to.
(ever burned yourself? yep that hurts.. now imagine that sensation forever and ever)

Please use some logical discernment here...
Which is worse : Physical PAIN (actual fire, torment) , or Spiritual Damnation (Being Cut off from God. )

Now, I don’t think physical suffering is the worse kind of suffering.
We know that when Jesus was on the cross He took and an awful lot of abuse
He was spit on and mocked. They pushed sharp thorns down into His head,
shredded His back with the cat-o’-nine-tails, drove the nails in and the spear.
He was even deserted by His own disciples.

The physical suffering was great. They even plucked the beard out of His face.
But you never hear the LordJesus complaining about any of that.

Rather, the peak of His agony and His suffering is when He cries out,
“My God, my God why has thou forsaken me?”

Describe was probably not the best word to use here. I mean to say there are 54 scriptures that TELL us that hell is eternal torment. Whether that be metaphorically or symbolically the fact the Bible and Jesus tells us that it is eternal it is. Please read my previous posts in the thread.

The big trouble is when people try to re-arrange what the Bible says because they cannot comprehend what it would be like to be in hell for eternity. Our small minds can't wrap around that...(And no, I am not referring to you personally, us as human beings).

Both are painful, eternal fire or being separated from God and they are both used in scripture to tell us what hell is, in metophors or symbolically.

I do not know what you mean when you say, "Jesus did not complain about any of that."

You quote scripture in one sense and question it in another. That is not logical.

 

[SpagLard]

Describe was probably not the best word to use here. I mean to say there are 54 scriptures that TELL us that hell is eternal torment. Whether that be metaphorically or symbolically the fact the Bible and Jesus tells us that it is eternal it is.

Using either the word "tell" or "describe" makes no difference here whatsoever...
The Bible states "hell" is eternal torment. we both believe it is,
why should we doubt it when the bible says it is ?
The real question is ;"is hell REAL" ? as in : is it an actual "place"
in space and time where the damned suffer physical torment and experience ACTUAL BURNING FLAMES scorching ?
you say it is. i say it is not.

The big trouble is when people try to re-arrange what the Bible says because they cannot comprehend what it would be like to be in hell for eternity. Our small brinds can't wrap around that...(And no, I am not referring to you personally, us as human beings).

"Eternity" is quite a difficult concept, just as "infinity" is.
but that (the eternity of hell) is not what is being questioned...
What i am saying is that very real "eternal torment in hell"
does not refer to an ACTUAL REAL PLACE OF ETERNAL TORTURE WHERE GOD SENDS PEOPLE.

Both are painful, eternal fire or being separated from God and they are both used in scripture to tell us what hell is, in metophors or symbolically.

agreed , both are painful.

I do not know what you mean when you say, "Jesus did not complain about any of that."

I'm saying that Christ never once lamented or responded to the torture he underwent physically ,
he did not place any importance on the (physical) "hell" he went through..
Christ does not seem bothered by all the torture, pain and physical hurt put upon him,
but, what Christ examplifies as the pinnacle of his suffering is being forsaken by God.

 

[BornAgain]

Using either the word "tell" or "describe" makes no difference here whatsoever...
The Bible states "hell" is eternal torment. we both believe it is,
why should we doubt it when the bible says it is ?
The real question is ;"is hell REAL" ? as in : is it an actual "place"
in space and time where the damned suffer physical torment and experience ACTUAL BURNING FLAMES scorching ?
you say it is. i say it is not.



"Eternity" is quite a difficult concept, just as "infinity" is.
but that (the eternity of hell) is not what is being questioned...
What i am saying is that very real "eternal torment in hell"
does not refer to an ACTUAL REAL PLACE OF ETERNAL TORTURE WHERE GOD SENDS PEOPLE.



agreed , both are painful.





I'm saying that Christ never once lamented or responded to the torture he underwent physically ,
he did not place any importance on the (physical) "hell" he went through..
Christ does not seem bothered by all the torture, pain and physical hurt put upon him,
but, what Christ examplifies as the pinnacle of his suffering is being forsaken by God.

34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mark 15:34 (KJV)

Pronounced by some an exclamation of agony; a human sense of abandonment to death. As the weakness of death comes on he feels God has forsaken him, and in distress he makes the cry. It seems to indicate a feeling of this kind. He was forsaken and betrayed by man. This he could bear, as man is weak, frail, and blind. But now he feels the support of God is withdrawn, and he asks, Why, what have I done that thou hast forsaken me? He could bear the treason, the denial, the forsaking of his chosen apostles—they were ignorant, weak, frail—but O, my God, what have I done that thou hast forsaken me?]

Correct, he did not cry out in agony because of the physical pain, but the fact that he thought His Father, God had abandon him. We can relate that to eternal torment in hell...

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matt 5:22 (KJV)

The one who sustains this attitude toward his fellow is "in danger of the hell of fire." Literally this means "the Gehenna of fire." Jesus here makes three grades of crime, rising each above the preceding one; these three corresponding grades of punishment as penalties are also told. The red letters are Jeus' words. Can we argue with what Jesus says?

 

[SpagLard]

Correct, he did not cry out in agony because of the physical pain, but the fact that he thought His Father, God had abandon him. We can relate that to eternal torment in hell...

good , you understand what i tried to say.
Jesus makes it clear what to him is agony and suffering,
and it is not torture of being consumed by physical pain,
it is the mere thought (and underlying actuality ) of being forsaken/abandonned by God.

Can we argue with what Jesus says?

We can/could.
but most Christians refuse to question the Word itself.
... so far we only assess/argue about how to interpret what Jesus says.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by BornAgain,

The one who sustains this attitude toward his fellow is "in danger of the hell of fire." Literally this means "the Gehenna of fire." Jesus here makes three grades of crime, rising each above the preceding one; these three corresponding grades of punishment as penalties are also told. The red letters are Jeus' words. Can we argue with what Jesus

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness"

 

[BornAgain]

You left off the rest of the scripture in Genesis 1:26...

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth
Gen 1:26 (KJV)

In our image, after our likeness—What is said above refers only to the body of man, what is here said refers to his soul. This was made in the image and likeness of God. Now, as the Divine Being is infinite, he is neither limited by parts, nor definable by passions; therefore he can have no corporeal image after which he made the body of man. The image and likeness must necessarily be intellectual; his mind, his soul, must have been formed after the nature and perfections of God.

God is holy, just, wise, good, and perfect; so must the soul be that sprang from him: there could be in it nothing impure, unjust, ignorant, evil, low, base, mean, or vile. It was created after the image of God; and that image, St. Paul tells us, consisted in righteousness, true holiness, and knowledge, Ephesians 4:24 Colossians 3:10. Man was wise in his mind, holy in his heart, and righteous in his actions.

My concience, I will let scripture speak for me.

Ecclesiastes 3:17 (KJV)
17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

 

[Free]

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness"

You must also remember God's purpose...... which is to make us in His image and likeness. That means, not only like the Inquisition of the past, but in the ages to come, you too must become a Master Torturer. As one who is told to be an imitator of God, as his own dear child, how does that jive with your conscience?

This is a strawman. Please don't use it anymore.

 

[WIP]

good , you understand what i tried to say.
Jesus makes it clear what to him is agony and suffering,
and it is not torture of being consumed by physical pain,
it is the mere thought (and underlying actuality ) of being forsaken/abandonned by God.

I understand what you're saying. In fact, I've often had this thought cross my mind regarding the crucifixion. Why was Jesus' crucifixion so much more arduous than any other? I think when he exclaimed, "Why have you abandoned me?" this is a clue. Because in taking all our sin upon himself and experiencing the total disconnection from the Father he endured pain like we can't imagine. I don't think we can possibly imagine what it is truly like to be 100% totally disconnected from God. Whether hell is a physical place or not, I just know I don't want to be there.

 

[westtexas]

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness"

You must also remember God's purpose...... which is to make us in His image and likeness. That means, not only like the Inquisition of the past, but in the ages to come, you too must become a Master Torturer.

Oh man. I've read and listened to these debates-for or against eternal punishment, annihilationism or universalism for years. No matter which side of the debate you take on this issue- this ones original! Thanks Os.

Westtexas

 

[Tri Unity]

Eternal punishment does not require being a master torturer. That the effects of God’s disciple might be eternal does not require images of the inquisitions. “The Lord disciplines those He loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son.” (Hebrews 12:6)

Punishment and discipline does not require that God does not love; for God is love. We choose our own fate and future discipline by our neglect of His call to repent. This will bring with it “weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The extremes always seem to be taken for every position.

 

[rrowell]

good , you understand what i tried to say.
Jesus makes it clear what to him is agony and suffering,
and it is not torture of being consumed by physical pain,
it is the mere thought (and underlying actuality ) of being forsaken/abandonned by God.

We can/could.
but most Christians refuse to question the Word itself.
... so far we only assess/argue about how to interpret what Jesus says.

How do you interpret this?
Not much to assess/argue here, Does this sound like a picnic to you?

Revelation 14:9-11 (KJV)
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

 

[SpagLard]

How do you interpret this?

Revelation 14:9-11 (KJV)
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

I personally interpret this as followed:

a passage from Revelations conveying a severe warning to early Christians.
That whoever would worship Nero Caesar as a divinity, (as Nero declared and demanded)
or becomes involved in idolatry
(uses his coinage which displayed him idolized as the God Apollo with divine rays )
or receives his "mark in his forehead"
(which translates : accepts him as saviour / representative of god on Earth. )
brings the wrath of God upon themselves.
In the presence of the Holy, they will know and experience the hell
they make for themselves when accepting a man in his
(and an horrific tyrant at that) self proclaimed holyness.

Exodus 13:9,16, Deuteronomy 6:6,8; 11:18: A mark upon the forehead and hand was a symbol of total obedience to God’s Law.

Not much to assess/argue here, Does this sound like a picnic to you?

No it sounds to me like a serious cautioning, in figurative language.
It is a warning to Christians not to "render to Caesar that which is of God" .

I suppose your interpretation differs greatly from mine ?
( i suppose so only because you present the meaning of the passage as "nothing to argue about " )
So concluding : yes,..there is plenty to assess and consequently argue about.

 

[rrowell]

I personally interpret this as followed:

a passage from Revelations conveying a severe warning to early Christians.
That whoever would worship Nero Caesar as a divinity, (as he asked)
or becomes involved in idolatry
(uses his coinage which displayed him idolized as the God Apollo with divine rays )
or receives his "mark in his forehead"
(which translates : accepts him as saviour / representative of god on Earth. )
brings the wrath of God upon themselves.
In the presence of the Holy, they will know and experience the hell
they make for themselves when accepting a man in his
(and an horrific tyrant at that) self proclaimed holyness.

I don't believe that is how you interpret it, I believe it is cut and pasted from someone else and you accept their interpretation of it as has been most of your posts, I hope you first try to understand scripture yourself then take what you get out of it (prayerfully guided by the Holy Spirit):

James 1:5 (KJV)
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

then and ONLY then consult what others (scholarly or not) say and measure it to what YOU believe it says... and you need to remember to be very cautious of those that call themselves "scholars"...

The Devil too is a scholar, he quotes scripture, he told Eve what God really meant...

 

[SpagLard]

I don't believe that is how you interpret it, I believe it is cut and pasted from someone else and you accept their interpretation of it as has been most of your posts, I hope you first try to understand scripture yourself then take what you get out of it (prayerfully guided by the Holy Spirit):

Are you serious ?
I wrote the above down myself, there is nothing copy-pasted about it.
If i do quote someone else it is to illustrate and it will be in quote tags.

So how did you make out i could not have come to this interpretation at my own volition ?

then and ONLY then consult what others (scholarly or not) say and measure it to what YOU believe it says... and you need to remember to be very cautious of those that call themselves "scholars"...

I wouldn't lend more credence to an opinion just because it came from a self-proclaimed scholar.

I gave you my interpretation, thought-over and typed out as i interpret
the passage that you asked me about.

Don't ask me for my view on things if you can't respond by at least treating my views respectfully.

The Devil too is a scholar, he quotes scripture, he told Eve what God really meant...

how is that remotely relevant to my opinion, or to scholars in general ?

 

[rrowell]

Are you serious ?
I wrote the above down myself, there is nothing copy-pasted about it.
If i do quote someone else it is to illustrate and it will be in quote tags.

So how did you make out i could not have come to this interpretation at my own volition ?

Change of syntactical structure as though quoting from a book, of which is not a problem, even I do the same...

I wouldn't lend more credence to an opinion just because it came from a self-proclaimed scholar.

I gave you my interpretation, thought-over and typed out as i interpret
the passage that you asked me about.

Don't ask me for my view on things if you can't respond by at least treating my views respectfully.

I did ask you for your views, but asking then if they are yours alone, or yours by influence is not disrespectful, but accusations are...

Your opinions of others may be low, and think of yours as high, but in the end the are still all opinions...

 

[SpagLard]

Change of syntactical structure as though quoting from a book, of which is not a problem, even I do the same...

I'm pretty clear about when i quote something (placing it in quote tags)..

I did ask you for your views, but asking then if they are yours alone, or yours by influence is not disrespectful, but accusations are...

uhhm, you did not ask me , whether my view was influenced by those of others.
instead, you were telling me you didn't believe i wrote what i wrote.
there's a slight difference there .

Your opinions of others may be low, and think of yours as high, but in the end the are still all opinions...

The above is not even a correct sentence..
Trying to decypher what you attempted to say here leaves me wondering :

"does he/she even know that he/she offers nothing but baseless "opinion" ?

why ask for my view on something only to not respond to it?