Is it fair that only those who heard of and believe in Jesus can be saved?

[for_his_glory]

so after Jesus there was no need to send missionaries anywhere because they already knew?

Of course there is a need of missionaries today and up to the time of Christ return as the gospel message will be preached throughout the world and then the end will come, Matthew 24:14. God gives everyone a chance to hear, but those who turn a deaf ear, do you really think they will be saved in the end if they have no faith in God or His Son Christ Jesus? Can I live like a heathen and still be saved?

 

[Randy]

Jesus said:

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).

Doesn't this mean that anyone who lived before Jesus or who never heard of Jesus cannot come to the Father?

It seems faith is the only way to salvation:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

To have faith in Jesus, a person must know of Jesus. Therefore, those who never heard the Gospel, either because they lived before Jesus or they lived during Jesus’ lifetime or after but were never evangelized, cannot know and have faith in Jesus. Therefore, they cannot be saved.

Is this right? If so, it does not seem fair.

The gospel was preached to the dead.
1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

God is the God of the living
Mark 12:26-27 to the Sadducee's who do not believe in a resurrection
Now about the dead rising—have you not read in the Book of Moses, in the account of the burning bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!”


If anyone has never heard of Jesus I would state they are neither saved nor condemned. That they will come before Jesus and He will make a judgment concerning them. I would add nothing is hidden from Him.

God is loving and just. The powerful signs will be given in Rev 11 before the lie of the beast and great tribulation enters the world. So that if any in those days has even a shred of love or faith in God they will believe and be saved. Those who take joy in the death of Gods two witnesses will fall to the lie of the beast.

 

[jaybird]

Of course there is a need of missionaries today and up to the time of Christ return as the gospel message will be preached throughout the world and then the end will come, Matthew 24:14. God gives everyone a chance to hear, but those who turn a deaf ear, do you really think they will be saved in the end if they have no faith in God or His Son Christ Jesus? Can I live like a heathen and still be saved?

but you said the word of our Lord is already there from beginning to end, what are missionaries gonna tell them that they dont already know?

 

[Link1983]

I think I can only answer this as only God knows the intents of the heart and He alone is the judge.

Rejecting knowingly and out of ignorance are both a lack of knowledge in the definition of the word ignorance. Not everyone has heard, but yet the word of God has always gone forth in every nation from generation to generation so I can not see anyone being without excuse unless they have lived a recluse life all their life and then they would probably would have no sin as they have no interaction with others, but are even they without excuse from generational preaching of the Gospel?

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I think Paul explain this perfectly:

For God shows no partiality [no arbitrary favoritism; with Him one person is not more important than another]. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without [regard to] the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged and condemned by the Law. For it is not those who merely hear the Law [as it is read aloud] who are just or righteous before God, but it is those who [actually] obey the Law who will be justified [pronounced free of the guilt of sin and declared acceptable to Him]. When Gentiles, who do not have the Law [since it was given only to Jews], do instinctively the things the Law requires [guided only by their conscience], they are a law to themselves, though they do not have the Law. They show that the essential requirements of the Law are written in their hearts; and their conscience [their sense of right and wrong, their moral choices] bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or perhaps defending them on that day when, as my gospel proclaims, God will judge the secrets [all the hidden thoughts and concealed sins] of men through Christ Jesus.
Romans 2:11‭-‬16 AMP

Romans 2:11-16 For God shows no partiality [no arbitrary favoritism; with Him one person is not more important than another]. [Deut 10:17; 2 Chr 19:7] For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without | Amplified Bible (AMP) | Download

For God shows no partiality [no arbitrary favoritism; with Him one person is not more important than another]. [Deut 10:17; 2 Chr 19:7] For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without

bible.com

Like you said this a matter of the heart. And who can see what is in the heart of a person? Only God can do that.
That well spoken and humbly put

 

[Link1983]

if someone never hears of Jesus, they die, then punished in hell forever and ever.

please explain to me what they are being punished for?

You answered your own question there. God is righteous!!!
Of course He wouldn't condemn someone just because they didn't even get a chance to make a choice!

For God shows no partiality [no arbitrary favoritism; with Him one person is not more important than another].
Romans 2:11 AMP

Romans 2:11 For God shows no partiality [no arbitrary favoritism; with Him one person is not more important than another]. [Deut 10:17; 2 Chr 19:7] | Amplified Bible (AMP) | Download The Bible App Now

For God shows no partiality [no arbitrary favoritism; with Him one person is not more important than another]. [Deut 10:17; 2 Chr 19:7]

bible.com

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

I think if we all here quit worrying about others actions and situations that we can't change, because they aren't believers, and did more about our own sins and circumstances, that we can change as believers, and quit pretending we don't have sin problems ourselves, when God says"WE ALL HAVE SINS" that easily besets us" (Entangles us) - Hebrews 12:1-2, then maybe we'd stop pointing fingers, and go look in the mirror, and have a heart to heart talk with yourself, then maybe there wouldn't be so much arrogance and egotism in the Christian culture!!!

If your among those here who don't think Christians sin,, as many, many believe, then your already AMONG THE WALKING DEAD, and have no place in God's kingdom.

Even Paul agonized over his sins in Romans 7: 24-25, Paul said, "wretched man that I am......with my flesh I serve the Law of Sin. Who will save me?"

 

[OzSpen]

i never tried to suggest there were perfect people out there that never make a mistake. i even gave examples of a few mistakes becasue i didnt want to get into the whole sin nature discussion because that was not the point. let me try it a different way.

you have one person, they lie to their parents when asked if they ate a cookie, they get old and lie to their boss, maybe they stole something, each time they do these things they feel really bad, ashamed, beg the Lord for forgiveness. but in the end their life is full of giving charity, compassion, forgiveness, and love.

now you have a 2nd person, they torture animals when a child, get old and start stealing, molest children, killed a person, you name it they did it, rotten to the core, and they have no remorse, never ask for forgiveness.

they both did bad things, are you saying they are the same?

Jaybird,

Both people are sinners who need God's forgiveness. Are these verses in your Bible? '

As the Scriptures say,​

​

“There is no one doing what is right,​

not even one.​

11 There is no one who understands.​

There is no one who is trying to be with God.​

12 They have all turned away from him,​

and now they are of no use to anyone.​

There is no one who does good,​

not even one" (Rom 3: 10-12 ERV).​

Oz

 

[Link1983]

Christians should be careful about saying that those who have not heard, wont get saved. That would actually be because of us who actually have heard.
As it is our main calling as belivers to preach to those that have not yet heard!

Mark 16:15

 

[jaybird]

Jaybird,

Both people are sinners who need God's forgiveness. Are these verses in your Bible? '

As the Scriptures say,​

​

“There is no one doing what is right,​

not even one.​

11 There is no one who understands.​

There is no one who is trying to be with God.​

12 They have all turned away from him,​

and now they are of no use to anyone.​

There is no one who does good,​

not even one" (Rom 3: 10-12 ERV).​

View attachment 10206
Oz

you really think they are the same? a kid that steals a cookie is the exact same as a child rapist serial killer?
who taught you this?

 

[for_his_glory]

I think if we all here quit worrying about others actions and situations that we can't change, because they aren't believers, and did more about our own sins and circumstances, that we can change as believers, and quit pretending we don't have sin problems ourselves, when God says"WE ALL HAVE SINS" that easily besets us" (Entangles us) - Hebrews 12:1-2, then maybe we'd stop pointing fingers, and go look in the mirror, and have a heart to heart talk with yourself, then maybe there wouldn't be so much arrogance and egotism in the Christian culture!!!

If your among those here who don't think Christians sin,, as many, many believe, then your already AMONG THE WALKING DEAD, and have no place in God's kingdom.

Even Paul agonized over his sins in Romans 7: 24-25, Paul said, "wretched man that I am......with my flesh I serve the Law of Sin. Who will save me?"

There are just certain questions we ask that have no answer as we are not above God in all His righteous judgements. We as a child of God need to be about His business and take the gospel message of good news out into the world to bring hope to a sinful world.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

you really think they are the same? a kid that steals a cookie is the exact same as a child rapist serial killer?
who taught you this?

jaybird my dear brother and friend.

If you spend enough time on this subject in your bible, you'll find that to God, SIN IS SIN - PERIOD.
He doesn't differentiate like us, mere sinful, ignorant mortals do, and hold one sin higher than another.
(By the way, I am one of those sinful, ignorant mortals)

If you look up the word sin in regards to how God see's it, sin is anything that separates us from God, by any of us KNOWINGLY doing anything that is going against His will - ON PURPOSE- ANYTHING !!!

Sin is also called REBELLION AGAINST GOD.
It's knowing what's right to do, and doing what we want to instead !!!

God bless all of you here.
My name is OLIGOS

 

[Susannah]

Jesus said:

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).

Doesn't this mean that anyone who lived before Jesus or who never heard of Jesus cannot come to the Father?

It seems faith is the only way to salvation:

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

To have faith in Jesus, a person must know of Jesus. Therefore, those who never heard the Gospel, either because they lived before Jesus or they lived during Jesus’ lifetime or after but were never evangelized, cannot know and have faith in Jesus. Therefore, they cannot be saved.

Is this right? If so, it does not seem fair.

I left the church in 1964 because I could not accept that only Christians go to heaven. But since then I have been told by God that this was true. I like the metaphor of Christ as gatekeeper. We must go through the gate and the gate is invisible so it has to be shown to us by Christ himself. My heart goes out to all the good people who do not believe this but it is true. I recently found out about the Catholic belief in purgatory so I feel a little better that good, non-Christians don't go to hell.

 

[Seasoned by Grace]

I feel a little better that good, non-Christians don't go to hell.

Susannah my dear sister in Christ.
Nice to see you back.

GOOD is a relative term my sister. I don't understand why you would say that Christ died for nothing, as the whole point to His dying on the cross was to save ALL OF US including those GOOD people who don't have Christ yet, and need Him just as bad as the rest of us.

Good people can't save themselves, only Christ can save them, and besides who decides the cut-off place between the GOOD and all others.
That can vary all over the place, but SIN IS SIN, and we all know what that is, as our conscience convicts us on every point of our sin, and every occasion of our sinning.

God bless you Susannah, and again welcome back.
My name is OLIGOS

 

[for_his_glory]

you really think they are the same? a kid that steals a cookie is the exact same as a child rapist serial killer?
who taught you this?

A child that is taught right from wrong that steals a cookie is still a thief when they know the difference between right or wrong and choose to do wrong. Many children will grow up in doing wrong and fall even further from God as they are disobedient and rebellious against God.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

If a child is trained up to know right from wrong and willfully keeps walking in disobedience then there is no more sacrifice for their sin if they do not repent of it and turn back to God and they will pay the consequences for disobedience, Hebrews 10:26, 27.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

We are no longer under the Temple laws, but are still under all the moral laws of God that are to be written on our hearts. There is no excuse for those who live in America where there is a church on every corner as they are without excuse for not hearing the word of God preached. In other third world countries missionaries are being sent out to preach and unless they were to live in remote villages without any contact with the rest of the world then only God will judge their hearts.

 

[for_his_glory]

I recently found out about the Catholic belief in purgatory

I found this one day searching about purgatory, but never listed where I found it so this is not my work but have the Jerusalem Bible that has the books of Macabbes in and read the scriptures there.

2 Macabbes is where Catholics get their idea of a purgatory and that everyone will go to be with Christ when He returns. There is no purgatory as this is just something that man dreamed up and is not of God. In Psalms 88 we see Heman was asking God these three questions in vs. 10-12 as he was sore plexed in approching his own death and was not sure that he would escape the wrath of God in judgement and was wondering if those who died who are in the grave could hear Gods voice. Psalms 6:5; Hebrews 9:27; Matthew 8:21,22; 2 Corinthians 5:8-11; Revelation 14:13 are just for a few scriptures all state the grave is a place of unconscienceness where there is no memory and souls are not capable of anything as it is dark silence waiting that of Gods judgement at the end of time when Christ returns and separates the sheep from the goats. They have no knowledge, no comfort, no praise of God, and most assuredly, no power of intercession.

2 Macabbes 12:38-45 Judas Maccabaeus is speaking about the sacrifice for the fallen who were found to have pagan idols on them when they died and this was the reason for their death as it is against God to have such idols in ones posession. It was clear to everyone why these men lost their lives. All of them blest the Lord and gave themselves to prayer begging that the sin commited by those who died would be blotted out. Judas urged the people to keep themselves free from sin, seeing with their own eyes the effects of the sin of those who had fallen. Judas then took a collection of money and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered. although a fine and nobel action in which he took full account of the resurrection. For if he had not expected the fallen to rise again it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. Whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who made a pious end, the though was holy and devout. This was why he had this atonement sacrifice offered for the dead so that they might be released from their sin.

Why the Maccabees Aren't in the Bible | My Jewish Learning

Why the Books of Maccabbees are not part of the Hebrew Bible

www.myjewishlearning.com

This is where the Roman Catholic Church came up with the concept of purgatory. Hopefully this will clear some things up we have been discussing. Also here is a good website that explains why the two books of Maccabees are not found in the KJV Bible

Why the Maccabees Aren't in the Bible | My Jewish Learning

Why the Books of Maccabbees are not part of the Hebrew Bible

www.myjewishlearning.com

Jerusalem Bible
2 Maccabees 12:38-45
The sacrifice for the fallen

12:38 Judas then rallied his army and moved on to the town of Adullam, and since the seventh day of the week had arrived they purified themselves according to custom and kept the sabbath in that place.
12:39 The next day they came to Judas (since the necessity was by now urgent) to have the bodies of the fallen taken up and laid to rest among their relatives in their ancestral tombs.
12:40 But when they found on each of the dead men, under their tunics, amulets of the idols taken from Jamnia, which the Law prohibits to Jews, it became clear to everyone that this was why these men had lost their lives.
12:41 All then blessed the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings hidden things to light,
12:42 and gave themselves to prayer, begging that the sin committed might be fully blotted out. Next, the valiant Judas urged the people to keep themselves free from all sin, having seen with their own eyes the effects of the sin of those who had fallen;
12:43 after this he took a collection from them individually, amounting to nearly two thousand drachmae, and sent it to Jerusalem to have a sacrifice for sin offered, an altogether fine and noble action, in which he took full account of the resurrection.
12:44 For if he had not expected the fallen to rise again it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead,
12:45 whereas if he had in view the splendid recompense reserved for those who make a pious end, the thought was holy and devout. This was why he had this atonement sacrifice offered for the dead, so that they might be released from their sin.

 

[jaybird]

jaybird my dear brother and friend.

If you spend enough time on this subject in your bible, you'll find that to God, SIN IS SIN - PERIOD.
He doesn't differentiate like us, mere sinful, ignorant mortals do, and hold one sin higher than another.
(By the way, I am one of those sinful, ignorant mortals)

If you look up the word sin in regards to how God see's it, sin is anything that separates us from God, by any of us KNOWINGLY doing anything that is going against His will - ON PURPOSE- ANYTHING !!!

Sin is also called REBELLION AGAINST GOD.
It's knowing what's right to do, and doing what we want to instead !!!

God bless all of you here.
My name is OLIGOS

I dont know about that:

Psalm 109:7 indicates that someones sins can be so bad that even his prayers become a sin. At John 19:11 Jesus says that the sin of Judas was greater than the sin of Pilate.

Number 15:30 makes it clear that willful deliberate sin is worse than someone who sins out of ignorance or imperfection. This matches up with what is said at Hebrews 10:26–27 about unforgivable sin.

Proverbs 6:16-19 list six things the Lord hates and seven that are detestable.

And then you have the Lord being a Just judge. A little white lie getting the same judgment as someone that spends their life destroying thousands of lives is the opposite of just.

And last we are told many times in scripture we will be judged for our actions.

 

[OzSpen]

you really think they are the same? a kid that steals a cookie is the exact same as a child rapist serial killer?
who taught you this?

Jaybird,

All are sinners who need to be saved by God's grace. I'm not talking about the consequences of sinful actions. Of course there is a difference between the child who steals a biscuit and the paedophile. However, that's not the issue. Both are destined to damnation but there is a solution - salvation through Christ.

Is this verse in your Bible? 'Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God' (1 Jn 3:4 NLT).

What ultimately happens to those who continue to break God's law right up until death?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

so after Jesus there was no need to send missionaries anywhere because they already knew?

Please read Matt 28:18-20 carefully. Is there a continuing need to send missionaries?

 

[jaybird]

Jaybird,

All are sinners who need to be saved by God's grace. I'm not talking about the consequences of sinful actions. Of course there is a difference between the child who steals a biscuit and the paedophile. However, that's not the issue. Both are destined to damnation but there is a solution - salvation through Christ.

Is this verse in your Bible? 'Everyone who sins is breaking God’s law, for all sin is contrary to the law of God' (1 Jn 3:4 NLT).

What ultimately happens to those who continue to break God's law right up until death?

Oz

not talking about those that continue to break the law. im talking about someone that broke the law, regretted, and asked for forgiveness.

 

[jmt356]

It is fair, as anyone who wants to do righteously will be given that chance.
God won't hide from them who seek Him.

Hopeful:

I believe you misunderstood the question and Jesus’ message. You wrote, “It is fair, as anyone who wants to do righteously will be given that chance.” However, we are not saved by righteous acts. We are saved through knowledge of and faith in Jesus. Jesus said that “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” (John 3:16). He also said that “No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6). A person who does righteous works but does not know and believe in Jesus will perish. That does not seem fair to me. I think a merit-based system where those who do righteous deeds are saved would be more fair because people have an inherent sense of right and wrong, but it does not seem fair that salvation would be reserved to those who know and believe in Jesus, especially given the fact that Christians have done a very poor job of preaching the Gospel. More than 2 billion people never even heard of Jesus. It does not seem fair that none of them will be saved.