Is it fair that only those who heard of and believe in Jesus can be saved?

[for_his_glory]

I am not sure I agree with this. Ephesians is talking about those who are ignorant "due to the hardening of their hearts" (Eph 4:18) and give "themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity" (Eph 4:19). Paul is calling out the Church in Ephesus to come apart from the Gentiles and their ignorance, hardened hearts, insensitivity, sensuality, indulgence, impurity and lust. He is comparing the Ephesians to the Gentiles in Ephesus, near modern day Izmir, Turkey. This is a people that had the Gospel preached to them. If they rejected the Gospel, they did so with knowledge of it. I am referring to unreached people groups, like the Shaikh of Bangladesh and India, who have 0% Christians among them according to the Joshua Project.

In Bangladesh Islam accounts for 89.1% of the countries religion, Hinduism at 10%, Christianity accounts for 0.5% which is roughly 887,000 Christians. India's percentage of Christians is approximately 2.3%, 28,000,000 followers of Christ being the third largest religion in India after that of Hinduism and Islam.

In the beginning was the word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Just as it was in the beginning so shall it be in the end as God's word goes out to every nation on every Continent, so no one is without excuse.

 

[Randy]

John 15:22
'If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

With Light comes accountability.
Isaiah 42:1
Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

In considering all this. This is why I state if someone has never heard of Jesus they are neither saved nor condemned. That they will come before the one who judges and Jesus will make a judgment concerning them. I add this: Nothing is hidden from the Lord.

 

[jmt356]

Before Jesus had come, they were judged by the law. After, we are judged on if you accept him as the truth or not.

Galatians 3:23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.

John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

I am not sure I agree. If they were judged by the law, then all would be condemned, for "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23). However, God "is not willing that any should perish" (2Pe 3:9). Therefore, faith in God has always been offered to mankind as a means to salvation, even before Jesus came.

Paul makes clear in the book of Romans that faith was always the means to righteousness and justification, including in the Old Testament covenants:

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS ARE FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS ARE COVERED;
Rom 4:8 BLESSED IS THE MAN TO WHOM THE LORD SHALL NOT IMPUTE SIN."

What Jesus did was fulfill the Old Testament Law. In the Old Covenant, covering for sin was given through atonement sacrifice and offering. Jesus offered those in the New Covenant a final sacrificial offering and covering for sin once and for all (Heb 10:10). However, He did not change the mechanism of salvation. That is and always was faith in God and repentance. However, following Jesus' sacrifice at Calvary, animal sacrifice was a sin covering was discontinued. He offered the ultimate and final sacrifice.

 

[Couppy]

In regards to the End, I thought I heard there is only one small island left to tell about the gospel. A missionary tried to reach them a couple years ago and was killed. I could be totally wrong about who in the world has heard ?‍

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

I heard about that story. Do you know what happened to the tribes after the missionary was killed? Was anyone able to recover his body?

 

[stovebolts]

I heard about that story. Do you know what happened to the tribes after the missionary was killed? Was anyone able to recover his body?

Are you talking about the story that they made the movie about? It’s called
At the end of the spear. It is a very, very powerful story.

 

[for_his_glory]

John 15:22
'If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.

With Light comes accountability.
Isaiah 42:1
Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him, and he will bring justice to the nations.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

In considering all this. This is why I state if someone has never heard of Jesus they are neither saved nor condemned. That they will come before the one who judges and Jesus will make a judgment concerning them. I add this: Nothing is hidden from the Lord.

Best answer to this whole thread. I applaud you sir.

 

[Blade]

Hi all new

Maybe this might help.. Jesus said if you were blind you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains. "

And.. seem someone else posted this verse YES!

Wanted to add.. I put in this about a Jewish man in NewYork 2000 that never heard of Jesus.. but would not let me post it. Was not a link nothing.. guess I had to reword it hmm

 

[Couppy]

Are you talking about the story that they made the movie about? It’s called
At the end of the spear. It is a very, very powerful story.

No. This was real life. This missionary sailed on a boat to an island to talk to the tribes. Language was a barrier. He did not succeed the first time. I think they shot at him. The second time he took fish he caught to them and they entertained him. The third time they shot him dead. I read it somewhere on the Internet, I think.

 

[Luminous_Rose]

Luminous_Rose:

I do not know what Abraham’s bosom is, but I do not believe we can say that Abraham is with the Father. Jesus is clear that no one comes to the father but through faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior. Abraham did not know of Jesus and did not have faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior.

I believe Romans 1:20 (Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse) is talking about those who “knew God” (see Rom 1:21: although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened), but nonetheless rejected Him. I am talking about those who do not know God and thus who do not have a chance at salvation. I do not believe that we can read Romans 1:20 as stating that all people know that Jesus is Lord and Savior and so those who reject Him do so out of rebellion. In reality, about 2 billion people, which is more than a quarter of the world’s population, do not even know who Jesus is. They are the unreached. Romans 1:20 cannot be stating that these people know that Jesus is the son of God and are thus without excuse on the day of judgment when they are found to not have surrendered to Him. If everyone knew Jesus was the Son of God, then we would have solved the problem I am posing because all of these people would have everlasting life because they “believe” in Jesus as required by John 3:16 to have eternal life. In reality, many people do not know of Jesus, and of those that do know of him, most reject him as the son of God. To suggest that all people know Jesus is the Son of God and are thus without excuse is a misreading of Rom 1:20.

I think human reason can lead us to the conclusion that God is real. Perhaps one can say that a person who rejects the existence of God is without excuse. But human reason cannot lead us to the conclusion that Jesus is the Son of God. We cannot expect a person who never heard of Jesus to somehow come to the conclusion that there was a man named Jesus who was the Son of God and if he fails to come to that conclusion, he is without excuse. That is unreasonable and not supported by any Scripture. In contrast, Romans 10 makes very clear that people cannot be expected to know and have faith in Jesus unless preachers are sent to them to teach them of Jesus:

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
…
Rom 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent?

It seems unfair to me that the billions of people who never heard of Jesus will perish.

Abraham's bosom is mentioned in Luke 16:19-31 about Lazarus and the rich man. If this is translated it can mean "Abraham's side" or "right next to Abraham" or even "with Abraham."

In the NIV, we read in Luke 16:22-31

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”



Although, I didn't mention Abraham's bosom in my last post, this is where it can be found. Abraham is talking here from Heaven. How could he not be in Heaven if it mentions him in Heaven in the New Testament?

The Bible does say that no one comes through the Father except through Jesus, but people that passed away before the time of Jesus were put in a "holding place" as I mentioned before until the coming of Jesus. They knew about God and his grace and there were many prophecies about Jesus revealed in the Old Testament scriptures, there were believers that were anticipating the coming of Christ. Abraham understood God would provide a sacrifice for sin just as God provided a sacrifice to replace Isaac. They looked to God and knew his grace and mercy and a lot of these people in the Old Testament followed in that walk with God as we do today.

James 2:23 (NIV) tells us:
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.


If Abraham was called God's friend and was known as a righteous man, why would he not be in Heaven? I mean, if we have to be even more than a friend to God then where does that leave us in our salvation? There is quite a bit of scriptural evidence that tells us that Abraham is in Heaven. His righteousness was not forgotten.

Even if we omit Romans 1:20-21 from the board here as a misread, the reality is that everyone will face God when they die and Heaven or Hell are the verdicts. God is a righteous judge, He will judge every soul. Let's say someone goes to jail for murder, but they stand in front of the judge during their trial and say, "But I didn't know it was against the law! I'm a good person!" What will the judge say? Will a trustworthy, honest judge let them go? No, they won't because this person murdered someone - they did something morally wrong and must be held morally accountable. What will God say to a soul that has sin that they haven't been cleansed from when they reach Him? They are still to be held morally accountable.

There are those that are considered the "unreached," and as Christians - it is our duty to reach them. If we fail to reach them, have we done our duty? We are given a command in Matthew 28:16-20 NIV:

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”


It may seem "unfair," but we all deserve to go to Hell. Thankfully, we have an option to choose salvation. We all sin and it is only through Jesus Christ that we are washed clean. God gives us that clean slate through Jesus Christ. You even mention that the Bible states that those who have never heard of Jesus Christ won't be saved. That is true.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi all new

Maybe this might help.. Jesus said if you were blind you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains. "

And.. seem someone else posted this verse YES!

Wanted to add.. I put in this about a Jewish man in NewYork 2000 that never heard of Jesus.. but would not let me post it. Was not a link nothing.. guess I had to reword it hmm

Hi Blade and welcome to CF.

I don't know why but that verse which is found in John 9:41 reminds me of, if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it still make a sound?

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
John 9:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind, but now I see.

 

[Who Me]

No. This was real life. This missionary sailed on a boat to an island to talk to the tribes. Language was a barrier. He did not succeed the first time. I think they shot at him. The second time he took fish he caught to them and they entertained him. The third time they shot him dead. I read it somewhere on the Internet, I think.

Sorry but this film is about Jim Elliott and his companions who where trying to reach a South American tribe deep in the Amazonian jungle.
Do learn the story and it's next part where Elizabeth Elliott reaches this tribe and is involved in the conversion of her husband's killers.

 

[Couppy]

Sorry but this film is about Jim Elliott and his companions who where trying to reach a South American tribe deep in the Amazonian jungle.
Do learn the story and it's next part where Elizabeth Elliott reaches this tribe and is involved in the conversion of her husband's killers.

Thanks for looking into my question. I have not watched the film about Jim Elliot or read about him until today. I found my answer to my question on Wikipedia. It is the story of John Allen Chau and the fishermen who were arrested, that I read. I don't know why I never thought of doing another search on the Internet until now.

 

[jmt356]

I think I can only answer this as only God knows the intents of the heart and He alone is the judge.

Rejecting knowingly and out of ignorance are both a lack of knowledge in the definition of the word ignorance. Not everyone has heard, but yet the word of God has always gone forth in every nation from generation to generation so I can not see anyone being without excuse unless they have lived a recluse life all their life and then they would probably would have no sin as they have no interaction with others, but are even they without excuse from generational preaching of the Gospel?

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

for_his_glory wrote that "the word of God has always gone forth in every nation from generation to generation so I can not see anyone being without excuse unless they have lived a recluse life all their life." However, she then quotes Romans 10:12-17, which states that people cannot come to salvation unless they believed, but they cannot believe unless they have heard, but they cannot hear without a preacher. If we are to believe Romans 10:12-17, then not all people have heard the Gospel. Christians must be sent forth to preach the Gospel. Otherwise, people cannot come to salvific faith. We therefore cannot simply state that all people know the Gospel naturally and those who do not believe the Gospel have knowingly rejected it.

 

[Link1983]

I spoke on this, and think it is a very interesting and reasonable question. After contemplating and discussing with a long time believer on the subject i am left more humble on this.
What i mean is that salvation is a personal thing between each individual and God.
As God sees the heart of man, we see mostly the appearance. God is righteous and we are not in ourselves.
This is a case for God..

Shalom

 

[jmt356]

if someone never hears of Jesus, they die, then punished in hell forever and ever.

please explain to me what they are being punished for?

They would be punished for their sins, and for failing to receive forgiveness for their sins through faith in Christ. I don't feel it is fair that one person who hears the Gospel and has an opportunity to repent and come to faith can be saved but another person who never hears the Gospel is eternally punished.

Jesus states, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6). However, He does not state precisely what “through me” means. He simply states that He is the way to the Father. It is possible that Jesus could act in unexpected ways that are unknown to us to bring those who never heard of Him to the Father.

 

[jaybird]

They would be punished for their sins, and for failing to receive forgiveness for their sins through faith in Christ. I don't feel it is fair that one person who hears the Gospel and has an opportunity to repent and come to faith can be saved but another person who never hears the Gospel is eternally punished.

Jesus states, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6). However, He does not state precisely what “through me” means. He simply states that He is the way to the Father. It is possible that Jesus could act in unexpected ways that are unknown to us to bring those who never heard of Him to the Father.

IMO "through Jesus" means doing things the way Jesus did things. you can live anywhere and do that. from the earliest days its always been "follow Jesus" its never been call yourself a follow of Jesus.

 

[stovebolts]

IMO "through Jesus" means doing things the way Jesus did things. you can live anywhere and do that. from the earliest days its always been "follow Jesus" its never been call yourself a follow of Jesus.

Scripture speaks of a way..a way of God which is mentioned numerous times in the OT. Jesus puts a face and name to that way.
People who have not been preached the way of Jesus yet abide in His way, recognise Jesus as the way when they hear of him.

 

[for_his_glory]

for_his_glory wrote that "the word of God has always gone forth in every nation from generation to generation so I can not see anyone being without excuse unless they have lived a recluse life all their life." However, she then quotes Romans 10:12-17, which states that people cannot come to salvation unless they believed, but they cannot believe unless they have heard, but they cannot hear without a preacher. If we are to believe Romans 10:12-17, then not all people have heard the Gospel. Christians must be sent forth to preach the Gospel. Otherwise, people cannot come to salvific faith. We therefore cannot simply state that all people know the Gospel naturally and those who do not believe the Gospel have knowingly rejected it.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

God's Wrath on Unrighteousness

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[jmt356]

I really do not think anyone can truly answer that question as all we know from the scriptures that it is all by having faith in God and accepting His Son Christ Jesus as our Lord and Savior being Spiritually born again in order to see the kingdom of God.

God's word has been from the beginning and has been preached in every nation from generation to generation. I really can not see anyone without excuse, especially here in the America. Even those around the world I can not imagine that they would not have ever heard at least the name of God or Jesus ever being mentioned, but yet I do not know.

According to the Joshua Project, there are 2 billion unreached people who never heard the name of Jesus.

In countries like Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia, where Bibles are forbidden and Christianity is prohibited, the only God that people know is Allah, and the only Jesus they know is Isa (the Muslim name for Jesus), the prophet in the Qur'an who denied being the son of God. They do not know the Jesus who was sent as a final sacrifice for our sins and through whom we can come to the Father. Preaching the Gospel is forbidden. So while it is true that people in these countries have heard of the name of God (called "Allah" in their local languages), they do not know the name of Jesus as He is known in the Gospel.

While it can be argued that these people naturally know right from wrong, I don't think it can be argued that they naturally know that Jesus is the son of God and therefore, they are without excuse for not knowing Him. The Gospel cannot be known aside from preaching.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I am not sure I agree. If they were judged by the law, then all would be condemned, for "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23). However, God "is not willing that any should perish" (2Pe 3:9). Therefore, faith in God has always been offered to mankind as a means to salvation, even before Jesus came.

Paul makes clear in the book of Romans that faith was always the means to righteousness and justification, including in the Old Testament covenants:

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
Rom 4:4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS ARE FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS ARE COVERED;
Rom 4:8 BLESSED IS THE MAN TO WHOM THE LORD SHALL NOT IMPUTE SIN."

What Jesus did was fulfill the Old Testament Law. In the Old Covenant, covering for sin was given through atonement sacrifice and offering. Jesus offered those in the New Covenant a final sacrificial offering and covering for sin once and for all (Heb 10:10). However, He did not change the mechanism of salvation. That is and always was faith in God and repentance. However, following Jesus' sacrifice at Calvary, animal sacrifice was a sin covering was discontinued. He offered the ultimate and final sacrifice.

I agree. I guess I should have clarified........faith in God has always been the stipulation. Faith in the true God and his plan included the "law" at some point which then led to "grace", because it is impossible to stick to the law.

Romans 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.