Smaller,
You're right, of course, about my using the word "mandatory" to cause a contradiction. In my second thought I should have used the word "necessary". Would that have been to your approval?
It's not enough anymore to state what we believe doctrinally? Now we have to become philosophers too? My reasoning power is not sufficient for you? I think my reasoning power is excellent. Or I would have been long gone - what with excellent posters such as Jim, Oz, Jethro, JLB.
I don't see any benefit to the understandings/positions of Oz, Jethro or JLB, when it essentially forces doubt of faith in Christ and commands (potential) condemnation to believers. No, no benefit whatsoever and NOT a critical component of the Gospel. There are other far more credible explanations for these same matters. Their positions on believers "losing" their salvation take a very wrong turn on understanding the subject matters.
The discussions usually range around "external sin" and the "works of the flesh." While I agree that "external expressions" of sin is not acceptable,
the reality is that "works of the flesh" transpire WITHIN everyone, period. No one credibly escapes this fact.
Jesus is very clear that evil thoughts defile, and that "everyone" unavoidably has them.
Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Mark 5:28 are but a few of many such depictions of this "internal" reality of evil's defilement in THOUGHT form.
When a believer, defiled themselves in this way, RAILS on another, they are merely condemning themselves in the process, as a basic hypocrite. And in that any such merely serve to show their own slaveship to sin.
Jesus was clear about "how" this "evil" works, internally. Where the Word is sown, Satan comes to steal, to resist, to kill, to destroy, to blind. And all of this activity transpires FIRST, within.
Paul shows quite precisely, in himself, for himself, how this works as well, in Romans 7:7-13 for example, openly defining that where the Word of Law came to him, that sin, taking the opportunity of RESISTANCE to the law, forced him to have every manner of concupiscence within himself. No one is exempt from this LAW, this RULE of sin. And that law of sin is this: Where the Word is sown, SIN resists within us all.
Paul does a fantastic expose of these matters. But FEW will ever admit to this LAW, preferring to judge the sins of others and neglecting to reconnoiter their own internal evil defiling thoughts that is prompted by sin encountering Gods Words. Paul terms this the "law of sin." This understanding brought or FORCED Paul to understand his "wretched man" state in his own dead body, Romans 7:23, Romans 8:10. It also brought Paul to understand that God in Christ, by His Laws, by His Grace, does STAND and will continue to STAND in condemnation of indwelling sin and evil present IN ALL. Romans 8:3. There is no avoiding this conclusion for any believer. So to take this basis of understanding and use it to condemn another believer will never compute. Such would be better off by condemning themselves first. Then they might see the sin issues of another much better,
seeing they are in essentially the IDENTICAL position.
Also, I've never before heard anyone accuse another Christian of using circular reasoning. Much of our reasoning is circular when we speak to each other. We use the book to prove the book. Something I don't do when speaking to atheists or even agnostics, at times.
I was precise in my observation. Your statement said nothing is mandatory, then said something was mandatory. And that is a statement of conflict without remedy.
Of course we have many "mandatory" understandings within Christianity. And yes, this does VARY from sect to sect. Just as the 7 churches of Revelation ALL had their separate issues to contend with. But one thing is certain. When we fall into condemnations of each others, we have lost our Spiritual insights.
There is a certain form of "heady power" that is dangled before the lustful for power eyes of believers who think, in their own minds, that they have the "sight" that they can condemn another believer to "eternal damnation." The fact is they don't have that power nor do they have what they "think" they see. I've seen many believers "fall" into the TRAP of condemnation. And it is a TRAP laid by our spiritual adversary.
1 Timothy 3:6
Not a novice,
lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
And many a christian religious leader has fallen into this trap, and take a lot of believers along with them.
Having said all that, so you could employ your intelligence and just understand me next time around, I must say that I agree with your 3 points. I also have been to two of those churches, but have become familiar with the third.
I'll short story this entire matter by saying I eventually got sick of believers thinking other believers were (possibly) going to "eternal hell." Today I would consider this an expression of simple hypocrisy. Of a sinner/believer
condemning another sinner/believer. It is a vile activity that transpires in many churches. All waiting to strike one another with their venom. It's like wading through a snake pit.
Personally, I don't exclude anyone from salvation or heaven. Any church that does will not receive my vote.
There is a place to apply judgments. It starts with "judging ourselves" and "our own sin" accurately. Do I exclude any from salvation? Of course. The devil and his messengers are NOT going to be saved, period. And when these characters show their faces in the church, such "pawns" of them need to be separated OUT and be called out.
However the infection at this point in time is probably beyond remedy. IF two major sects for example, have sat in condemnation of each others as heretics, for hundreds of years, and within those sects are "supposedly" some of the most intelligent people on the planet, it is MOST unlikely that any of these things can really be "remedied." Reality shows us that it won't be remedied. Divisions will continue to flourish. Hatred will continue to flourish. Condemnations will continue to flourish.
And at some point, a believer might realize that this IS what God Himself DEMANDS, so that we all would see
our own quite sorry state of affairs,
PERSONALLY.
I've stated here many times, which is why I did not pay a lot of attention to my wording, that it is JESUS who saves us NOT a doctrine.
And when Jesus Himself, DOES save, the first thing that happens is that all of these are gathered up and taught to divide and condemn, by our various sects and divisions.
Jesus warned us about this matter, here:
Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees,
hypocrites! for
ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
I consider myself fortunate for a man of God in Christ to "call me on the carpet" over this matter a couple plus decades back. And I was forced to consider my own hypocrisy with matters of SIN, of JUDGMENTS and of CONDEMNATIONS.
It is NOT mandatory to condemn anyone else. Jesus said to let the first one with no sin throw the first stone.
Exactly.
But in the very next breath your
positions and understandings will do otherwise.
It is the condemnation of sin in believers that has essentially fractured and divided ALL the churches and likewise all the members. So much so over the centuries that there are vast millions of believers that are taught today that they do not even know, for a surety that they are saved. Only that they might be.
Maybe it's a long shot? Maybe it is just a roll of the dice? Maybe just "a chance."
I don't think God in Christ is that random in His Abilities to save us all. IF we are mancentric in our positional understandings, hinging salvation on the "abilities" of man to save themselves, that's HOW this happens.
Yes, man will fail. We are not our own Savior. When we build salvation on potential failure, which is ASSURED failure, that's pretty much how we got to where we are today.
