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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
Amen!
I have yet to see anyone claim this, and I have yet to see you provide a quote from a post where anyone has claimed this.
Yet you continue to fill up page after page, ranting about how impossible it is cover up, or excuse, that sin resides in our flesh.
Not one person disagrees with this because it in written in the bible.
What is also written in the bible is how to crucify, and put to death the deeds of the flesh.
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16
and again
And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24
and again
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13
...if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
I have good news for you, today.
You don't have to put up with the sinful desires that reside in your flesh.
You can crucify them.
Do you believe you can crucify the sinful desires that are in your flesh, that entice you to sin?
...those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:12-13
...present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
JLB
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1
JLB
No.
Do you understand we are to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of flesh?
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Corinthians 7:1
You can claim over and over about the sin within our flesh, and the evil present with us, but that won't do a thing to "cleanse yourself" from all filthiness of flesh and spirit.
What is also written in the bible is how to crucify, and put to death the deeds of the flesh.
I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16
and again
And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:24
and again
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. Romans 8:12-13
...if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
I have good news for you, today.
You don't have to put up with the sinful desires that reside in your flesh.
You can crucify them.
Do you believe you can crucify the sinful desires that are in your flesh, that entice you to sin?
...those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members asinstruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:12-13
...present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
JLB
I said this:
"My point remains: The Bible does NOT say that Christians can end up in hell for any reason. And no one has shown otherwise from Scripture."
Once again, to "not inherit" means to "have no inheritance", proven from Eph 5:5, a parallel passage to both Gal 5 and 1 Cor 6.
"My point remains: The Bible does NOT say that Christians can end up in hell for any reason. And no one has shown otherwise from Scripture."
No one has shown that my understanding of either Paul or Jesus is in conflict. I've shown that your understanding of both Paul and Jesus is in direct conflict with what they have said.
I've already proven from the other 2 parallel passages that to "not inherit the kingdom" is equal to "have no inheritance IN the kingdom". There is nothing here about not getting into the kingdom.
I've already explained what it means. It's parallel to Eph 5:5 and "have no inheritance IN the kingdom".
I've already shown the question is based on a false premise. As if "not inheriting" God's kingdom, one will inherit some other kingdom.
Once again, to "not inherit" means to "have no inheritance", proven from Eph 5:5, a parallel passage to both Gal 5 and 1 Cor 6.
There is it: "not have any inheritance IN IN IN the kingdom of Christ and God". It's NOT about not getting into the kingdom, but rather, getting IN IN IN, but having no inheritance IN IN IN the kingdom.
Of course it's possible, because the Bible warns against it. But what does that have to do with loss of salvation?
Certainly you're aware of the fact that God's discipline (judgment) on His children involves His wrath? Or not?
That's what I've been saying all along. They will be IN IN IN God's kingdom, but have NO NO NO part, NO NO NO inheritance IN IN IN His kingdom.
Yes, God's wrath does come upon those children who are disobedient. But no one has shown that God will remove or revoke eternal life from anyone who has been given that irrevocable gift. So, don't forget that.
Pardon while I chuckle, but no one has refuted any of my points, or explained any of the verses I've provided in support of my points. So how's that weak?
otoh, those who claim loss of salvation cannot show any verse that out and out makes that claim.
So how's that strong?
Thank you for your opinion, but please explain how the lake of fire can be ANYWHERE on the new earth.
Yes, there is. Your claim makes no sense. And your view cannot be explained or defended, which is why the "need" to claim there is no need to define distance. Of course there is.
Your claim demands that the lake of fire is outside the city. If the lake of fire is now anywhere on the new earth, then John wouldn't have written v.15 the way he did.
iow, words mean things.
No, that's NOT my argument. Sorry that you've failed to follow any of my argument. It appears from your statement that the "tree of life" somehow maintains one's eternal life. But that doesn't make sense because those who will live on the new earth already HAVE eternal life, which is irrevocable, and NOT in danger of being lost.
No one has proven your claim here about the river being eternal life and those not in the city are in the lake of fire. Opinions need support from Scripture, which hasn't been given.
Please provide an actual verse, so I can know what you're referring to. Then I'll answer your question.
The only question that remains is why the Bible NO WHERE states that salvation can be lost for any reason, if that is true.
smaller
Member
Paul provides understanding in the matters thusly, as sin indwelling his flesh being "no more I." Romans 7:17-20. We've been through this all many times. Paul quite factually stated that "no more I" did what it did, in Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:15, Romans 7:19 and concluded from this that evil was present with him, Romans 7:21 and warring was "in his members," Romans 7:23, that he was a wretched man because of these facts, Romans 7:24, that his flesh served the law of sin, Romans 7:25 and that sin in the flesh is under the condemnation of God in Christ. Romans 8:3, which condemnation Paul ACCEPTS to these workings as the only logical conclusion.
These all provide more than adequate "divisions" of Paul from that working of sin indwelling his flesh, and evil present with him, neither of which were "removed" after salvation.
What Paul didn't do was to lie about these matters or use a hypocritical double standard about the facts of sin indwelling his own flesh compared to the sin of others, the evil present with him or claim or that he was better than any other sinner. Romans 3:9, 1 Tim. 1:15.
And your positions can claim that believers can make themselves sinless and Paul's facts will continue to do the factual smack down on any of those angles of escaping being a sinner saved by faith in Christ through Grace.
The only basis you employ to (potentially) eternally condemn believers is sin. Reality of scriptures say none of us escape the conclusion of being a sinner, saved by faith in Christ through His Grace.
Romans 7:25 KJV
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Does the sin in this verse have dominion? No! Absolutely Not!
Does the law of God through Jesus Christ guarantee the Lambs book of life? Absolutely!
Romans 7:25 is a verse with two conditions in one sentence.
Why do we have to split the two conditions into two camps and not admitt:
I am a flesh and blood person that sins from time to time.
I have the mind of Christ in me. With dominion over my flesh.
Oh well. Pound the Missisippi Rednecks
eddif
I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Does the sin in this verse have dominion? No! Absolutely Not!
Does the law of God through Jesus Christ guarantee the Lambs book of life? Absolutely!
Romans 7:25 is a verse with two conditions in one sentence.
Why do we have to split the two conditions into two camps and not admitt:
I am a flesh and blood person that sins from time to time.
I have the mind of Christ in me. With dominion over my flesh.
Oh well. Pound the Missisippi Rednecks
eddif
Jethro Bodine
Member
One reason for losing eternal life that the Bible plainly gives us is that a person adds to, or takes away from the words of Revelation:
"18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:18-19 NASB bold and underline mine)
But you say the Bible no where states that salvation can be lost for any reason, in effect taking away the words of the prophecy of Revelation. You claim that to not be in the city and have no part of the tree of life does not mean loss of eternal life but is rather only a loss of heavenly reward, not a loss of salvation/eternal life. But the whole counsel of Revelation is clear that if you are not in the city you have part in the lake of fire.
It makes no difference where it is, or what the concept of it actually is all about. The point is, it is outside of the city, and if you are not in the city of God you are outside of it and have no eternal life:
"14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15Outside (of the city) are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying."
"8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”" (Revelation 22:14-15 NASB, Revelation 21:6-8 NASB bold, underline, and parenthesis mine, italics in original)
But you are claiming that to not be in the city is simply a loss of reward, not a loss of eternal life. But the passages above plainly say that to be outside of the city is to have your part in the lake of fire.
I find it incredibly ironic that claiming to not have access to the city, and the river, and tree of life does not mean you do not have eternal life is actually doing the very thing that will result in one losing their eternal life.
The Bible plainly says in the passages I posted above that if you are not in the city with access to the tree of life then you are with those outside of the city whose "part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone" (Revelation 21:8 NASB italics in original). That's not my opinion. It's what the plain words of scripture I quoted above say. Those who take away or add to the words of the Revelation prophecy have their part in the city taken away and instead go outside of the city and have their part in the lake of fire. That is what scripture plainly says.
I don't understand how you could have missed them the other times I've posted them, but here they are again:
"8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:8-9 NASB)
The stumbling Jesus is talking about results in being cast into the lake of fire. But it is claimed that a believer can not stumble so as to lose their eternal life. Obviously, the next argument is going to be that Jesus is not talking about believers. But Jesus himself said in plain words that he is in fact talking about causing believers to stumble:
"6 ...whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matthew 18:6 NASB bold and underline mine)
The question does not remain for the person who acknowledges the plain words of scripture I've been posting. The one who believes in Christ can stumble so as to lose eternal life, and the person who adds to or subtracts from the words of Revelation will have their part of the city taken away and instead have their part in the lake of fire. Eternal life can indeed be lost.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Being a weak and/or ignorant sinner growing up into Christ is one thing, but the one thing you can not be is an unbeliever. That is what will cause one to lose their eternal life. That's why we are exhorted to continue in the word of the gospel to the very end (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB), and to exhort others to do the same.
So we believe in the work of Christ to the end and are saved. We do not return again to repentance and depend on our works.
OC we do works (which can never bring righteousness).
NC we confess our sins and depend on Christ Jesus and are saved.
We honestly see through a glass darkly:
Confess we know not how to pray as we ought.
Romans 8:26 KJV
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Depend on spiritual gifts.
Ephesians 4:8 KJV
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
..........
We do not return to temporal:
II Chronicles 7:14
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
19 But if ye turn away, and forsake my statutes and my commandments, which I have set before you, and shall go and serve other gods, and worship them;
20 Then will I pluck them up by the roots out of my land which I have given them; and this house, which I have sanctified for my name, will I cast out of my sight, and will make it to be a proverb and a byword among all nations.
...........
We do see Jesus saving:
I John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
........
We have weaknesses (we do not wallow in those weaknesses).
We have strengths in Christ Jesus. ( it is not us but Christ that works in us).
........
We preach not ourselves
II Corinthians 4:5 KJV
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
Holiness of Christ
Redneck
eddif
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
chessman
Member
So you think adding eternal to The Tree of Life mentioned in Rev 22 is proper interpretation???
Where does it say their part of eternal life was taken away from them?