Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[Jethro Bodine]

So we believe in the work of Christ to the end and are saved. We do not return again to repentance and depend on our works.

Repentance was never a dependence on works to be justified in the first place that it should somehow be that later on for the Christian. So the Christian should not shun repentance as if doing that equates to now doing works to be justified. Because it does not.

Goods works are the outward manifestation of our turning to God. We are to be in a continual state of repentance as evidenced by good works appropriate to that claim of repentance:

"...declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance." (Acts 26:20 NASB)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So you think adding eternal to The Tree of Life mentioned in Rev 22 is proper interpretation???

If you're not in the city where the river and tree of life are then you do not have eternal life (Revelation 22:14-15 NASB,Revelation 21:6-8 NASB) . That's how we know having access to the river, the city, and the tree represent having eternal life.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Where does it say their part of eternal life was taken away from them?

"...if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:19 NASB bold mine)

Instead of me going through the whole argument again (which I sense you are going to make me do) just read my last couple of posts to Freegrace and pick something out you don't agree with and we'll talk about it.

 

[JLB]

Paul provides understanding in the matters thusly, as sin indwelling his flesh being "no more I." Romans 7:17-20. We've been through this all many times. Paul quite factually stated that "no more I" did what it did, in Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:15, Romans 7:19 and concluded from this that evil was present with him, Romans 7:21 and warring was "in his members," Romans 7:23, that he was a wretched man because of these facts, Romans 7:24, that his flesh served the law of sin, Romans 7:25 and that sin in the flesh is under the condemnation of God in Christ. Romans 8:3, which condemnation Paul ACCEPTS to these workings as the only logical conclusion.

The person who sins is under condemnation.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

In Romans 7, Paul identifies with the human condition, and warns that the desire to sin is outwardly, while the desire to serve God is inwardly.

• I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. Romans 7:21-22
• But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:23

If we live our life according to the outward man, where sin dwells, and desires to gratify it's lustful desires then we will die. [eternal; death]

Paul explained all of this in Romans 6, and continues to explain in Romans 8.

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:12-13


Paul explains to the Christians in Roman who most of which are either slaves, or former slaves [freedmen], that we are the slave of the one we obey, whether of God, or of sin: it's our choice, as we have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness, and dominion over sin.

For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 7:14


We have been given the right [power and authority] to becomes sons of God, through Jesus Christ.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 1:12

It is by the power of His Spirit we can put to death, the sinful deeds of the flesh, by which we also have the ability to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of flesh.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14


Those who live by the inspiration and desires of the Spirit of God within, are the sons of God.

• For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
• But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"The only question that remains is why the Bible NO WHERE states that salvation can be lost for any reason, if that is true."

One reason for losing eternal life that the Bible plainly gives us is that a person adds to, or takes away from the words of Revelation:

"18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:18-19 NASB bold and underline mine)

First question: if eternal life can be "lost", please clearly explain whether it's by one's own actions, much like losing one's car keys, or by the actions of someone else, much like a child who hides said car keys. This MUST be addressed before I can respond further to your comments.

One thing is very clear from Scripture; the gifts of God are irrevocable, and eternal life is a gift of God. Therefore, we KNOW that God isn't going to take it away. This fact necessarily narrows down your answer to the question of the way eternal life can be "lost".

Second question: why should anyone assume that the tree of life in the New Jerusalem has anything to do with giving or maintaining eternal life? By the time we read about the tree of life in the New Jerusalem in Rev 21, the ONLY PEOPLE that populate the new earth are believers who already HAVE eternal life. Which is an irrevocable gift of God.

So, please explain how the tree of life has any effect on one's eternal life.

But you say the Bible no where states that salvation can be lost for any reason, in effect taking away the words of the prophecy of Revelation.

I say that because it's true, and Rev 22:18-19 isn't about losing eternal life. Cannot be, based on what else the Bible says about God's gifts and eternal life. You've not shown otherwise.

You claim that to not be in the city and have no part of the tree of life does not mean loss of eternal life but is rather only a loss of heavenly reward, not a loss of salvation/eternal life. But the whole counsel of Revelation is clear that if you are not in the city you have part in the lake of fire.

Is that your only defense? An opinion about what you think Rev means? How about some actual exegesis? Because of what the Bible teaches about the gifts of God, your view cannot even be possible.

It makes no difference where it is, or what the concept of it actually is all about. The point is, it is outside of the city, and if you are not in the city of God you are outside of it and have no eternal life:

"14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15Outside (of the city) are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying."
"8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”" (Revelation 22:14-15 NASB, Revelation 21:6-8 NASB bold, underline, and parenthesis mine, italics in original)

This view has lots to explain then. The end of Rev 20 and the Great White Throne judgment places all unbelievers in the lake of fire. So everything in ch 21 and 22 is for believers only.

Now, explain how your view fits the FACT that the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven and lands on the new earth. Your view treats the new city as heaven itself and the lake of fire just outside the gates of the city.

Yet, Rev 21:26 says: "and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;". So explain how there can be nations, all residing inside the gates of the city. Doesn't make sense.

We know from Rev 21:1 that God replaces the present earth with a new earth. So why would heaven only consist of a city that rests on the new earth?

But you are claiming that to not be in the city is simply a loss of reward, not a loss of eternal life. But the passages above plainly say that to be outside of the city is to have your part in the lake of fire.

No, it doesn't. That's only your understanding of it, which is driven by your loss of salvation bias.

I find it incredibly ironic that claiming to not have access to the city, and the river, and tree of life does not mean you do not have eternal life is actually doing the very thing that will result in one losing their eternal life.

There isn't anything in Scripture that supports this opinion.

The Bible plainly says in the passages I posted above that if you are not in the city with access to the tree of life then you are with those outside of the city whose "part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone" (Revelation 21:8 NASB italics in original). That's not my opinion. It's what the plain words of scripture I quoted above say.

Trying to directly link 21:8 with 22:15 is quite a stretch, totally unsubstantiated. None of that is found in the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace]

Those who take away or add to the words of the Revelation prophecy have their part in the city taken away and instead go outside of the city and have their part in the lake of fire. That is what scripture plainly says.

OK, let's actually see what Scripture says, rather than just your opinion of what you might think it says.

22:18-19
18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

What is crystal clear is that these verses do NOT contain the words "eternal life", so that is just your misunderstanding of the verses. You've transposed "tree of life" to MEAN "eternal life". That's the problem with your views and misunderstandings.

From a wrong premise, you've come to a wrong conclusion.

I don't understand how you could have missed them the other times I've posted them, but here they are again:
"8“If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire. 9“If your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than to have two eyes and be cast into the fiery hell." (Matthew 18:8-9 NASB)

Please explain how cutting off one's hands or feet or removing one's eyes will avoid the lake of fire. is that how one is saved; by self mutilation? That's a very weird theology, imo.

Rightly dividing the Word of Truth requires one to discern between figurative and metaphoric language from literal language. Which is lacking in your views.

The stumbling Jesus is talking about results in being cast into the lake of fire.

What in the world does "the stumbling Jesus" mean? Why are you being so disrespectful of our Lord?

But it is claimed that a believer can not stumble so as to lose their eternal life.

Let me tell you what the Bible claims:
1. the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Rom 11:29
2. eternal life is a gift of God. Rom 6:23
3. therefore, eternal life is irrevocable.
4. so, one cannot lose eternal life.

"6 ...whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matthew 18:6 NASB bold and underline mine)

Once again, the error is to claim this verse is about losing eternal life, when the OBVIOUS wording is CLEARLY about physical drowning in the sea.

The question does not remain for the person who acknowledges the plain words of scripture I've been posting.

I've just shown that your own view does NOT acknowledge the plain words of Scripture that you've posted.

The one who believes in Christ can stumble so as to lose eternal life

There are NO verses that make this statement.

and the person who adds to or subtracts from the words of Revelation will have their part of the city taken away and instead have their part in the lake of fire. Eternal life can indeed be lost.

There is NO support from Scripture for your claims.

 

[FreeGrace]

Being a weak and/or ignorant sinner growing up into Christ is one thing, but the one thing you can not be is an unbeliever. That is what will cause one to lose their eternal life.

First, unbelievers do not have eternal life in the first place.
Second, when one believes, they HAVE eternal life, according to Jesus Christ in John 5:24.
Third, the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.
Fourth, eternal life is a gift of God, therefore, irrevocable.

Therefore, no one can lose what is irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

Hi JLB,
Thanks for such a wonderful explanation of why you are so insistent with your beliefs, which are correct, of course.

If anyone has any doubt that Ephesians 5:3-5 and more, is speaking to Christians, they are not reading the same epistle as written by Paul.
Wondering

The problem with his view is that to "not inherit the kingdom" isn't about not getting into the kingdom, but not having an inheritance in the kingdom, which is EXACTLY how Paul described it in that passage.

 

[JLB]

What is irrefutable is that eternal life is irrevocable!!

There is no such scripture that teaches us eternal life is irrefutable.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23


The end result of a life as a slave to God, bearing fruit unto holiness is everlasting life.

The wages of a life spent gratifying the sinful desires of the flesh is death; eternal death.

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8

We see the same works of the flesh, mention here in Revelation, that Paul describes in Galatians 5:19-21

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

"Will not inherit the kingdom" = The Second Death in the lake of fire.

Just exactly as Jesus taught us in the Olivet Discourse.

• Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

• “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41

JLB

 

[chessman]

If you're not in the city where the river and tree of life are then you do not have eternal life (Revelation 22:14-15 NASB,Revelation 21:6-8 NASB) . That's how we know having access to the river, the city, and the tree represent having eternal life.

Do you (or me or John for that matter) live in the city where the river of the water of life and the tree of life that's on both sides of that river coming out of the throne of God are and that had no temple in it (Rev 21-22)??? No. Jesus showed all that (things to come) to John in a prophetic vision which is a revelation of Jesus Christ, The Son.

On the other hand, do you (or me) have Eternal Life? Yes, if you have The Son (1 John 5:11-12).

Instead of me going through the whole argument again (which I sense you are going to make me do) just read my last couple of posts to Freegrace and pick something out you don't agree with and we'll talk about it.

I did.
I don't agree with adding Eternal Life to John's prophecy. When I asked:

Where does it say their part of eternal life was taken away from them?

your answers do exactly that.

That's how we know having access to the river, the city, and the tree represent having eternal life.

"...if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:19 NASB bold mine)

If John had meant The Tree of Life (or being in the city with no temple or the river running through this city flowing out of the throne of God) to represent Eternal Life, he could have said so. He didn't say that. You do.

Why can't the tree of life, represent life, just like it says (i.e. the 1st life)??? No access to the tree of life thusly means death (the 1st death)??? Poof. Simple.

See Gen 3:24

Genesis 3:24 (LEB) So he drove the man out, and placed cherubim east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming, turning sword to guard the way to the tree of life. ​

 

[JLB]

Second, when one believes, they HAVE eternal life, according to Jesus Christ in John 5:24.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are no longer believers.

Eternal life is promised to those who believe, not those who return to unbelieving.

7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:7-8


JLB

 

[JLB]

First question: if eternal life can be "lost", please clearly explain whether it's by one's own actions, much like losing one's car keys, or by the actions of someone else, much like a child who hides said car keys. This MUST be addressed before I can respond further to your comments.

One thing is very clear from Scripture; the gifts of God are irrevocable, and eternal life is a gift of God. Therefore, we KNOW that God isn't going to take it away. This fact necessarily narrows down your answer to the question of the way eternal life can be "lost".

Second question: why should anyone assume that the tree of life in the New Jerusalem has anything to do with giving or maintaining eternal life? By the time we read about the tree of life in the New Jerusalem in Rev 21, the ONLY PEOPLE that populate the new earth are believers who already HAVE eternal life. Which is an irrevocable gift of God.

So, please explain how the tree of life has any effect on one's eternal life.

Please explain how a person can be taken away from the book or life and the holy city where God dwells, and still somehow be considered "saved".

18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Revelation 22:18-19

Being blotted out of the book of life, means you have been removed from having eternal life.

5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. Revelation 3:5


JLB

 

[smaller]

The person who sins is under condemnation.

The indwelling sin, the evil present with "all" is under the condemnation of God in Christ. There is no escaping this conclusion for anyone. Romans 8:3.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

See the above. Walking in/by faith in Christ does not change Christ's condemnation of sin/evil in all, nor does walking in faith make any believer sinless.

We can go round and round on this subject and the bottom line will never land on any believer being sinless or without evil present. Romans 7:17-21, Hebrews 10:22, doesn't change for any believer.

The laws of God provide the hard line fact of sin, the knowledge of sin, and even empowers sin, to PROVE that all are sinners beyond any doubt. Romans 3:9, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7-13, 1 Cor. 15:56, Gal. 3:22.

The law essentially "forces" us into Gods Grace and Mercy in Christ, received by faith in Him. There is no option, because of indwelling sin and evil present with all. Gal. 3:24.

In Romans 7, Paul identifies with the human condition, and warns that the desire to sin is outwardly, while the desire to serve God is inwardly.

Jesus again proves the hard line fact that it is "evil thoughts" that defile us. Outward sin proves what is an internal reality fact of evil present that doesn't change for anyone. Internal reality of "evil thoughts" is the proof of indwelling sin and evil present with us. Just because anyone "acts" good on the outside will not conclude in anyone being sinless or without evil present.

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23, Mark 5:28, Romans 7:7-13.

• I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. Romans 7:21-22
• But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:23

If we live our life according to the outward man, where sin dwells, and desires to gratify it's lustful desires then we will die. [eternal; death]

We all die because of indwelling sin and evil present in the flesh. Romans 8:10. And, until that is a reality of death, the flesh remains against and contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17.

You can try to make that flesh and it's inherent sin/evil something other than what it is, but it will not happen nor will anyone make themselves sinless.

Paul explained all of this in Romans 6, and continues to explain in Romans 8.

Paul left ZERO avenues of anyone making themselves sinless. I might even describe such sights as a deception of sin and evil in the flesh that a surprising amount of believers are deceived into buying.

Paul explains to the Christians in Roman who most of which are either slaves, or former slaves [freedmen], that we are the slave of the one we obey, whether of God, or of sin: it's our choice, as we have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness, and dominion over sin.

No matter how we track this down JLB, it will not land on sinlessness for anyone. Which is where your positions always hit a solid road block that won't move.

Not a single one of your scripture citings state or claim that ANYONE can make themselves sinless. That is only what such positions vaguely "claim" to see, but it isn't there to be seen.

So, bottom line here is this. Your positions only toehold to (potentially) condemn believers to eternal hell is on the basis of sin.

But there are no sinless believers to make that claim to start with.

 

[JLB]

The indwelling sin, the evil present with "all" is under the condemnation of God in Christ. There is no escaping this conclusion for anyone. Romans 8:3.

The person who walks according to the flesh, by yielding to the passions and desires coming from the flesh, is under condemnation.

There is no escaping this conclusion.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

The only way out from under this condemnation is to walk according to the Spirit, being led by the righteous desires of the Spirit.

Just as the devil himself is condemned for sinning, likewise those who sin are also.

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

The devil is the one who sinned and the devil is the one who is punished.


JLB

 

[smaller]

The person who walks according to the flesh, by yielding to the passions and desires coming from the flesh, is under condemnation.

There is no avoiding the condemnation of God in Christ to indwelling sin and evil present in the flesh, and ALL have indwelling sin and evil present in the flesh. Romans 7:17-21 results in Romans 8:3's unavoidable conclusion.

Your position seeks to avoid this conclusion, plain and simple.

There is no escaping this conclusion.

The only way out from under this condemnation is to walk according to the Spirit, being led by the righteous desires of the Spirit.

Well, there it is. No, there is no escaping the conclusion that the indwelling sin and evil present in ALL is and will permanently remain under the condemnation of Christ. Not even a little bit is going to be squeezing past the CROSS.

Just as the devil himself is condemned for sinning, likewise those who sin are also.

There is no double dealing with Jesus on indwelling sin and evil present. It's ALL under condemnation and will remain so.

We are to place ourselves, in the flesh with it's indwelling sin and evil present, rightfully UNDER that condemnation Christ, where the flesh with these inherent facts, belongs. This is the meaning of our respective crosses.

8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

The devil is the one who sinned and the devil is the one who is punished.
JLB

I don't doubt that one little bit.

 

[JLB]

No matter how we track this down JLB, it will not land on sinlessness for anyone. Which is where your positions always hit a solid road block that won't move.

Not a single one of your scripture citings state or claim that ANYONE can make themselves sinless. That is only what such positions vaguely "claim" to see, but it isn't there to be seen.

So, bottom line here is this. Your positions only toehold to (potentially) condemn believers to eternal hell is on the basis of sin.

But there are no sinless believers to make that claim to start with.

Please show me the post where anyone has claimed to be sinless.

If you can't then you are just playing silly games, and are just trolling.


My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 2:1

and again

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:9


The answer to sin is Jesus Christ, and falling upon his mercy.

The answer to a sinful lifestyle of practicing the works of the flesh, is to walk in the Spirit.

I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Galatians 5:16


Please do not promote your Gnostic beliefs on this website.

Traditional Christianity promotes the belief in living a life of holiness and righteousness through the grace of our Lord and the power of the Holy Spirit.

Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: Hebrews 12:14

8) Active promotion of sinful behavior will not be permitted. (ToS 2.1)
Do not make statements either by posts or posting URLs to other Websites which advocate activities, beliefs or teachings contrary to those of Christianity as articulated by the historic creeds, as understood by Evangelicalism, and as interpreted by the christianforums.net Leadership's sole discretion.



JLB

 

[JLB]

There is no avoiding the condemnation of God in Christ to indwelling sin and evil present in the flesh, and ALL have indwelling sin and evil present in the flesh. Romans 7:17-21 results in Romans 8:3's unavoidable conclusion.

Your position seeks to avoid this conclusion, plain and simple.

There is no escaping this conclusion.

Posting your opinion, and tagging it with scripture reference shows you are not wanting the truth of scripture, but your own beliefs.

It is allowing the flesh to express it's sinful desires, that will bring condemnation to the person.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 7:21-8:1


Those who walk according to the flesh serve the law of sin, but those who walk according to the Spirit are therefore now under no condemnation.

...you are that one’s slaves whom you obey.

• Serve sin and be a slave to sin, and receive eternal death
• Serve God and be a slave to righteousness, and receive eternal life.

...whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

again

I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
Romans 6:19

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23


JLB

 

[smaller]

Please show me the post where anyone has claimed to be sinless.

What your position (and the positions of the many) attempts to do is to avoid the condemnation of Christ against all sin and evil. Since all are sinners, and remain so, that working in all, seen or unseen, remains under Christ's condemnation. There is no avoiding this conclusion.

If you can't then you are just playing silly games, and are just trolling.

You know exactly where this heads every time. I point out the fallacy of avoiding Christ's very real condemnation of all sin and evil in all flesh, and your position seeks to avoid that very RIGHTFUL conclusion of God in Christ against ALL sin and evil, which is and remains IN ALL flesh of man.

Hence, your position, thinking it has avoided this conclusion, THEN moves on to try to condemn other sinners for the very same inherent sin/evil that we all have in any case of sights. I call it a double dealing position. I call it for what it is, a hypocrisy position.

The same (potential) eternal condemnation you seek to meter out to other sinner believers falls upon your flesh as well.

My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 1 John 2:1

You have a bit of a conundrum working in the above bold. On the one hand, your position appears to admit that NO ONE makes themselves sinless, and THEN it scurries to the above bold, to try to make and establish the claim of sinlessness.

You position is caught in a vicious (and common) circle of confusion.

and again

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:9

The answer to sin is Jesus Christ, and falling upon his mercy.

We "fall" upon Jesus' Mercy precisely because we are and remain sinners. That's pretty much all there is to the matters. His Mercy doesn't make us sinless either.

You can claim a "sinless" lifestyle. That claim makes no one sinless either and holds zero scriptural water.

There is a working of God in Christ. It is a real working that all must "truthfully" face at some point in their believing life, hard as it may be. And that is that God in Christ quite entirely and quite entirely Perfectly does condemn sin indwelling the flesh and evil present with us. This is done precisely to bring us to understand that we are 'DEAD IN SIN' but simultaneously ALIVE by faith in Christ. Col. 3:3, Romans 8:10

This is not a one or the other option. Both aspects of this matter are TRUE and are RIGHT. We do not avoid the condemnation of Christ against all sin and evil and we all have this in our flesh, no matter how good of an act that flesh puts on.

We live our lives in faith precisely in a BODY OF DEATH.

This was Paul's conclusion of the law for himself:

Romans 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Indwelling sin and evil present will not, can not "be legal" or "obedient" or "under Grace." It's not possible for these workings to get "the free pass" from God in Christ. It can't and won't happen.

We are brought precisely to this death, and walk in a DEAD body, because of the indwelling sin and evil present therein. And this is proven to "all" believers soon enough in this short life.

All these "railing" believers who run around condemning sin and evil don't realize that the same condemnation they dish out, they also take unto themselves.

But invariably, these same condemners will not themselves stand under God in Christ's RIGHTFUL condemnation of their own indwelling sin and evil present, and seek to avoid that conclusion.

Would you like to borrow some nails?

 

[JLB]

What your position (and the positions of the many) attempts to do is to avoid the condemnation of Christ against all sin

Please post the scripture that teaches us, Christ condemns "sin" rather than the "person who sins".

Sin is when a person commits lawlessness.

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4


JLB

 

[smaller]

Please post the scripture that teaches us, Christ condemns "sin" rather than the "person who sins".

Since there is no essential difference it doesn't matter. A sinner is all and all are sinners. Trying to make any kind of divide here won't work. We all live in a body that is, from the sight of scripture, dead because of indwelling sin and evil present with us.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin;

No one, believer or unbeliever, avoids the conclusion in red, above.

By faith in Christ, we are "instantaneously" translated to this state:

but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Both the red and the blue, are TRUE.

Your position only wants the BLUE to be TRUE, but not the RED.

Sin is when a person commits lawlessness.

We are NOT sinless, remember? So, if this is true, which it is, we are not "sinless" until we 'commit' a sin.

Sorry, not how it works. Jesus was clear that evil thoughts DEFILE us. This is not an option, that evil thoughts might happen. They do happen, and evil thoughts quite factually defile us.

Matt. 15:19-20, Mark 7:21-23 and Mark 5:28

Paul makes this exact same conclusion for himself, that Jesus shows above, for himself, here: Romans 7:7-13.

I hope that after some time and patience, you will learn that there is no escape of the conclusion of having sin dwelling in the flesh and evil present with us, thereby quite factually making us sinners, REGARDLESS of how good we act.

Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4
JLB

Yep. Pretty much DEAD NAILS for all. Romans 3:9's conclusion that all are under sin isn't changing for anyone, believer or unbeliever.

The law proves us all sinners every single time, without fail:

BECAUSE indwelling sin and evil present with us automatically RESISTS the LAW.

This is the "lesson" that LAW teaches us. And Jesus teaches us to be honest about it.