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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
Please post the scripture that shows us God somehow condemns sin, but the one who sins is not condemned.
JLB
I said this:
"What is irrefutable is that eternal life is irrevocable!!"
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph 2
I cannot imagine how to state the fact more clearly than Paul did. We are NOT saved by becoming slaves of God or having fruit to holiness.
This is what Jesus said about how to receive eternal life:
"“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16
Or what Paul said about it:
"Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life." 1 Tim 1:16
These verses refute your claims and teach that eternal life is on the basis of believing in Christ, not becoming a slave or having fruit.
As to WHEN one actually possesses eternal life, consider Jesus' own words:
"“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
The present tense for "has" is significant. One HAS eternal life WHEN one believes in Him.
"What is irrefutable is that eternal life is irrevocable!!"
That is more than astounding! Scripture is clear about it. But denial of facts seems common.
From your own words, then, eternal life is earned. One must become a "slave of God" and have "fruit to holiness". That's just a gilded works-salvation, that is in DIRECT contradiction to what Scripture SAYS:
"8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast." Eph 2
I cannot imagine how to state the fact more clearly than Paul did. We are NOT saved by becoming slaves of God or having fruit to holiness.
This is what Jesus said about how to receive eternal life:
"“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16
Or what Paul said about it:
"Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life." 1 Tim 1:16
These verses refute your claims and teach that eternal life is on the basis of believing in Christ, not becoming a slave or having fruit.
As to WHEN one actually possesses eternal life, consider Jesus' own words:
"“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."
The present tense for "has" is significant. One HAS eternal life WHEN one believes in Him.
I strongly reject any works based system of salvation, which yours is and excludes grace.
Thank you for quoting a verse that refutes your own views about when one has eternal life. They have it WHEN they believe.
What verse says this? It's a statement of opinion, but unsubstantiated from Scripture.
Where is the verse that actually says that those who cease to believe will cease to have eternal life?
If that were true, then Jesus failed to take the golden opportunity in Luke 8:13 to make that crystal clear.
Just curious as to why the obsession to assume that the Bible EVER refers to believers who apostasize as unbelievers? No examples have been provided even after numerous requests for such verses.
Since there are no such verses, why continue to assume what isn't taught in Scripture?
First, let's be clear that there is NO MENTION of being blotted out in 22:18,19. So let's not make stuff up.
Second, the Masoretic Text doesn't say "book of life", but rather "tree of life", which again, supports my claim about the tree of life in the city.
Further, the MT doesn't say "shall take away" but rather "may take away".
So, as reflected in the MT, this is not so much a prediction as it is an imprecation. This is an expression of desire that the seriousness of these acts be met with severe divine judgment. John is not making an exact prediction about what will happen to people who add to or subtract form the Book of Revelation. The imprecations express judgments John believes such people deserve. He wants to retribution to be commensurate with the guilt.
I have already explained what a litotes is and how it is used in Scripture.
All sin has been judged on the cross of Christ. Already.
smaller
Member
All sin and evil is and remains under the condemnation of Christ. There is no 'free pass' or 'allowances' for any of it or it's workings.
Romans 8:
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That ruling won't change.
smaller
Member
We will all stand, every last person who has ever lived on earth, quite entirely "guilty" of sin, before our Maker. There will be no squawking about sinlessness by anyone, before God in Christ.
Romans 3:
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Freegrace, you're making this so unneccessarily complicated.
What you must do is show us that John got it wrong and that a person still has eternal life even if they are outside of the city and have their part in the lake of fire:
15Outside (of the city) are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying."
"8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”" (Revelation 22:15 NASB, Revelation 21:8 NASB bold, underline, and parenthesis mine, italics in original)
These are the plain words of scripture, so what you have to do is show us how they are not 'really' true and that you can be outside of the city, having had your part in the tree of life and the city taken away (Revelation 22:19 NASB), but you still have eternal life.
What you must do is show us that John got it wrong and that a person still has eternal life even if they are outside of the city and have their part in the lake of fire:
15Outside (of the city) are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying."
"8“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”" (Revelation 22:15 NASB, Revelation 21:8 NASB bold, underline, and parenthesis mine, italics in original)
These are the plain words of scripture, so what you have to do is show us how they are not 'really' true and that you can be outside of the city, having had your part in the tree of life and the city taken away (Revelation 22:19 NASB), but you still have eternal life.
Please show us the post where someone has claimed to be sinless.
This is not even part of the discussion.
If you can not show me a post, where someone has claimed to be sinless, then you are the one squawking about a claim that does not exist.
This shows us that we are all in need of a Savior, to "take away" our sin, and cleanse us of all unrighteousness.
Read a little further...or all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:19-23
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. Hebrews 10:11-14
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
Nothing you have said will ever change the fact that we are to walk according to the Spirit, or be under condemnation.
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1-4
JLB
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Revelation 22:18-19
- These will be removed from the book of life.
- These will hart no part in the Holy City of God, where He dwells with His people.
No amount of words games, or twisting, or redefining will change what is meant.
JLB
smaller
Member
There are zero truthful claimants to that seat, other than God in Christ Himself.
Absolutely it's part of the discussion. Your position seeks to condemn believers for sin. But the quite unavoidable conclusion is that "all" are sinners. It is there, in that endless loop, of trying to be both, that your position get's stuck, when trying to condemn believers for sin.
And here you exhibit the same claim. On one hand, stating no one is sinless, and NOW claiming Jesus made us sinless.
Jesus made no one sinless.
No "walking" of any sort made or makes anyone sinless.
All the circling around on this subject lands back in the same basic reality. That none are sinless.
Yet your position seeks to (potentially) eternally condemn believers for sin.
You do understand that when you practice condemning for sin, you condemn all sinners, including self, because NONE are sinless.
I'm the one who's trying to show the sheer simplicity of Scripture. Once saved, always saved. There is no loss of salvation in the Bible. Only in the minds of some. No one has YET shown ANY Scripture that tells us directly that one can lose salvation for any reason.
I proved that eternal life is a gift of God from Rom 6:23 and that the gifts of God are irrevocable from Rom 11:29. And, that those who have been given eternal life will never perish from John 10:28.
But some will not believe what the Bible plainly says.
Which have been grossly misunderstood by those who have an agenda or bias against eternal security.
Rather, it is your challenge to prove that Paul never included the gift of eternal life from the gifts of God that are irrevocable in Romans. If that cannot be proven from Scripture, then your challenge is moot.
I said this:
"All sin has been judged on the cross of Christ. Already."
Rom 6:10 - The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
Heb 9:12 - He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.
Heb 9:26 - Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 10:2 - If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. {the context here is regarding the Mosaic Law sacrifices, that had to be performed every year, unlike the ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice of Christ.
Heb 10:12 - But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.
"All sin has been judged on the cross of Christ. Already."
Gladly.
Rom 6:10 - The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
Heb 9:12 - He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.
Heb 9:26 - Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 10:2 - If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. {the context here is regarding the Mosaic Law sacrifices, that had to be performed every year, unlike the ONCE FOR ALL sacrifice of Christ.
Heb 10:12 - But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.
OK, then if your interpretation is correct, the Bible is flawed because eternal life is a gift of God, per Rom 6:23 and God's gifts are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.
Those who refuse to connect the dots do so at their own peril.
Since your view denies that eternal life is irrevocable, please show in Romans where Paul SPECIFICALLY excluded the gift of eternal life from the gifts mentioned in Rom 11:29.
I have a question. Does God owe salvation to those who believe? My understanding is that even if I do all the works which I am called and commanded to do, including believing, it is still by God's grace that I am saved. If I expect salvation from God because I believe He owes it to me even just because I believe, I am holding His feet to the fire. It seems that in the end it is still God's choice and it is not our place to decide for God whom he will save.
Seek the Lord while He may be found,
Call upon Him while He is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the Lord,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
“I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it."
How many times did God relent His plan for Sodom and Gomorrah as Abraham pleaded? If we are going to hold His feet to the fire with regard to salvation, is it not only fitting that the opposite be true?
Seek the Lord while He may be found,
Call upon Him while He is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the Lord,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.
“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
“I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it."
How many times did God relent His plan for Sodom and Gomorrah as Abraham pleaded? If we are going to hold His feet to the fire with regard to salvation, is it not only fitting that the opposite be true?
smaller
Member
If we hold to our Savior as not a Savior, but a possible eternal condemner, then He Is Not our Savior. He is a possible Savior and an equally possible Eternal condemner, which by either measure is NOT a Savior by His Surety in NEITHER of the prior postures.
Colossians 1:
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
None of the above happens with a "potential Savior/possible condemner."
IF the fulcrum of our salvation revolves back, upon our own backs, then we are left once again to face the same problems that pushed us INTO Christ to begin with, that we are not our own Savior, that we do not make ourselves sinless, that we can not "earn" and have no merit in and of ourselves of any eternally redeeming or redeemable values.
If we, solely ourselves, had any eternally redeeming/redeemable values, as such, we wouldn't need a Savior to start with.
I am not denying that many hold only to a potential Savior, that is only capable if the person believing is also capable. This is a conjunctive Savior/savior posture-relationship in which the conjunctive savior will always fail, and it returns the Savior to only a possible savior/possible condemner.
I would point to the insufficiency of such claims, the latter small s savior having ZERO power to make any acceptable eternal transformation.
"Made us, delivered us, translated us, redeemed us" are ALL One Directional past tense Workings of The Real Savior that we "received" the instant we believed in Christ, by faith in Him and HIS Abilities to fulfill His Promises to us.
When we insert ourselves in the equations as 'co-saviors' all such meanings are essentially meaningless side notes. None of us performed any of that working of Him.