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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.
- Thread starter JLB
- Start date
Yes the calling of the Gospel to repent to the Jews is irrevocable, even though they have rejected it.
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. Romans 11:25-30
They will obtain mercy from God if they don't continue in unbelief.
They were broken off because of unbelief.
Likewise, the Gentiles are also warned that we too could also be broken off, if we don't continue...
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Romans 11:19-23
Are the Jews who were broken off from the "Olive Tree" saved?
JLB
I see, so Paul wrote His letters to unbelievers.
That's almost as good as having faith in food, or marriage or things God created.
Christians who wander or turn from the truth, who fall into a sinful lifestyle, or teach false doctrine, need to repent.
It's that simple.
Here is who the scripture says will receive eternal life:
God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8
God will judge each man according to his deeds.
- eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
- but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Again, here is who will receive eternal life: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
JLB
I agree, true Christians will cherish their precious salvation, and heed warnings from the Spirit of God and the scriptures.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:39-40
- The "all He has given Me" reference is referring to His disciples which He later clarifies in John 17.
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:6-12
Eternal life is given to those who believe.
Those who believe for a while then no longer believe, are no longer believers.
Judas Iscariot believed for a while, heard His voice and followed Him for three and one half years, then betrayed Him.
JLB
smaller
Member
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. Romans 11:25-30
I might suggest a re-read.
Are all the people of Israel who came out of Egypt who died because of unbelief burning in hell JLB? Please don't forget to include both Moses and Aaron in that sight.
That does assuredly NOT mean they landed or will land in eternal hell. Paul says the exact opposite.
Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
Included in those destroyed because of unbelief, who did not enter the promised land because of unbelief, were Moses and Aaron. Are you going to claim they are or will be in hell? Seriously?
Numbers 20:12
And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
Methinks eternal damnation in the hands of the prideful and heady can extend itself beyond it's boundaries.
All of those people were BELOVED by God for the sake of their fathers. Can't you see that? And thusly they will ALL, just as Paul stated, be SAVED.
Now clearly we should be able to see that unbelief will NOT mean auto-eternal hell in these examples. And if you relegate Moses to eternal hell for unbelief, shame on YOU.
Of course God's call is irrevocable. That's what Rom 11:29 says. It also says that the gifts of God are irrevocable. One of which is eternal life from Rom 6:23. And another gift is justification from Rom 5:15,16,17.
Therefore, no one who has been given eternal life will ever perish. Jesus said so Himself in John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
Now, for those who still believe that a saved person (one who possesses eternal life) can end up in the lake of fire: PROVE your claim by quoting a verse that plainly says that God will take eternal life away for any reason that you think will result in loss of eternal life.
Please prove that to be "broken off" as would be understood by 1st Century Jews meant to lose eternal life.
That's not the issue in that passage. Assuming it means "loss of salvation" is just that; an assumption. In the OT, the phrase meant to be physically killed (capital punishment) for certain crimes.
But, go ahead and prove from Scripture that it refers to loss of salvation.
Please let me know when you find the scriptures that say: All sin has been judged on the cross of Christ.
and also the one that says:
Eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God.
JLB
Why do you guys make this so difficult?
You guys can't agree on anything.
The more I listen, the more it sounds like everyone is going to hell.
It might do good to listen to others for about a year or two.
You guys can't agree on anything.
The more I listen, the more it sounds like everyone is going to hell.
It might do good to listen to others for about a year or two.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Cute replies to a serious conversation I thought I was having with you.
This shows that you gave no thought at all to what I posted but will just continue with your INCORRECT doctrine.
Have you ever read the Didache? It was written while John was still alive, most probably in the late 90's but certainly not after 150. You should look it up and read it. It's very interesting. I'd write some stuff from it but I tend not to like flippant remarks on a very serious subject.
I will answer your last question.
People who like John Calvin like him for a reason. He tells them that they could believe ONE TIME and then do whatever they please and they will still be saved.
Problem is that Jesus did not agree with John Calvin. Interesting that it took 1,500 years for some guy to come up with this doctrine. I guess all the other theologians of the church were wrong. You should also look up the original Church Fathers and what THEY thought of eternal salvation. You know, those men who were around while the Apostles were still alive or shortly thereafter and REALLY knew what Jesus taught. They seemed to be highly agreed that it took WORKS to continue in salvation.
Sorry. No biblical scripture will be posted. Know why? Because it's rather silly to be arguing about this.
I did NOT spend the time I spent answering you to receive the rather unthoughful answers you have given me.
You have my permission to continue believing what you believe. Just make sure that you're right in your belief.
Wondering
The scriptures say Moses was faithful in all his house.
5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
Hebrews 3:5-7
Why would you attempt to slander a faithful man of God.
The Holy Spirit makes the distinction between Moses and those who were rebellious and whose hearts went astray during that time:
7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:7-14
Moses was faithful, while the others went astray in their heart, and uses them as an example for us to warn us not to have an evil heart of unbelief, departing from the living God.
- Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.
- For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Those who depart from God, are no longer partakers of Christ.
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1 John 5:12
JLB
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
What others?
You mean like, maybe, Jesus?
Are we here reading two different bibles?
Did Jesus not know what He was talking about?
It took John Calvin to explain it to us?
I think not.
Even Paul said the Law is to be followed. He just thought up a different way to do it while he was making up the theology that took him 3 years to accomplish while in Jerusalem.
Paul seems to agree with Jesus. You just have to not twist the English language around to mean something different from what Paul wrote and what Jesus said.
Wondering
Are you still covering your head and being quiet in church?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Unbelief in Christ means the lake of fire.
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Revelation 21:8
Striking a rock instead of speaking to it, for the water to come out is not unbelief in God.
The scriptures say's Moses was faithful.
5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:5-6
We also are Christ's house, if we are faithful to the end.
Do you believe those who were cast down alive to hell were saved?
31 Now it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them, 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods. 33 So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly.
Numbers 16:31-33
JLB
Oh dear, you are so sweet.
How can one ever want to argue with you.
I agree with you.
Now let's go on a picnic together.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Seems to be scriptural:
Acts 2:42 ESV
And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
And I always like this when arguments arise:
John 13:34 ESV
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Peace and love.
Wondering
I said this:
"otoh, please prove that He didn't judge all sin on the cross from Scripture."
Rom 11:29 says that the calling and gifts of God are irrevocable.
Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is as gift of God.
No one has shown that Paul either SAID or meant to exclude the gift of eternal life from the gifts that are irrevocable.
Unless and until someone can prove that, the point is clear: eternal life is irrevocable.
Proved by 2 verses. Very clearly.
"otoh, please prove that He didn't judge all sin on the cross from Scripture."
OK, I recognize when one isn't up to the challenge to defend their own position.
Glad to again.
Rom 11:29 says that the calling and gifts of God are irrevocable.
Rom 6:23 says that eternal life is as gift of God.
No one has shown that Paul either SAID or meant to exclude the gift of eternal life from the gifts that are irrevocable.
Unless and until someone can prove that, the point is clear: eternal life is irrevocable.
Proved by 2 verses. Very clearly.
smaller
Member
It is not me who thinks they see God eternally torturing those, including Moses, who were destroyed by God, because of unbelief, and, according to Num. 20:12 both Moses and Aaron were included in the below,
Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
I see no distinction. God is not a double dealer with the indwelling sin and evil present in any person.
Yet Romans 11:26 says "all of Israel shall be saved." Which includes not only Moses and Aaron, but all those who died per Jude 1:5.
But you see my friend, it is the very sin and evil in our own hearts that becomes exposed "in us" when we ourselves seek to destroy, not only by mere physical death, but by eternal torture.
And by this The Word exposes our own internal wickedness and double dealing. Heb. 4:12, and places it before our eyes to observe.
We have all been given adequate resources of facts in the scriptures to observe eternal damnation. But that does not automatically mean that falls on believers who sin in unbelief or any other sin.
The scriptures provide for us all to see and observe a spiritual adversary, also in action with not only the people of Israel, but with all mankind. 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 6:11-12.
It's a personal battle for us to see this matter, for our own sins and evil present with us. Romans 7:17-21.
We ARE to treat kindly to one, to pray for them, to love them, to HOPE to the very end, only the BEST for them, and RESIST the other, who will have the eternal fate you are so fond of heaping up to the wrong party. IF we want to observe eternal damnation, we have a much easier mark to observe that is UPON all people to heap that sight unto.
2 Corinthians 4:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience
None of us received our release from this captor, this spirit of disobedience, to rail upon the captives.
It is upon our salvation, that the real battles begin, and these battles, that warring, that wrestling, is within for all of us.
Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
So perhaps, if we understand, because of this, we received Gods Grace and Mercy through faith in Christ, we are not so apt to treat others who have the identical warring who have not seen they are captives, who remain captives, so harshly.
In this we find the distinction between ourselves as Gods children, and our spiritual adversary.
1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.