Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[FreeGrace]

Cute replies to a serious conversation I thought I was having with you.

They weren't cute. They were simple.

This shows that you gave no thought at all to what I posted but will just continue with your INCORRECT doctrine.

OK, please bring me up to speed by explaining how my doctrine is incorrect, if it is.

Have you ever read the Didache? It was written while John was still alive, most probably in the late 90's but certainly not after 150. You should look it up and read it. It's very interesting. I'd write some stuff from it but I tend not to like flippant remarks on a very serious subject.

What is so interesting about it? Is it canon?

I will answer your last question.
People who like John Calvin like him for a reason. He tells them that they could believe ONE TIME and then do whatever they please and they will still be saved.

I happen to not like JC. I am not a Calvinist by any stretch of the imagination. If he told people what you claim, then he FAILED to tell them everything. That those who live for themselves will face certain punishment from God and lose reward in eternity. Just read 1 Cor 11:30. "many are weak and sickly, and number have died". Does that sound like a Sunday School picnic?

Problem is that Jesus did not agree with John Calvin.

Nor do I. His views on limited atonement are unbibical.

Interesting that it took 1,500 years for some guy to come up with this doctrine. I guess all the other theologians of the church were wrong. You should also look up the original Church Fathers and what THEY thought of eternal salvation. You know, those men who were around while the Apostles were still alive or shortly thereafter and REALLY knew what Jesus taught. They seemed to be highly agreed that it took WORKS to continue in salvation.

Since I'm not a Calvinist, let's move on to biblical matters.

Sorry. No biblical scripture will be posted. Know why?

Yep. Your view isn't supported from Scripture.

Because it's rather silly to be arguing about this.

Well, that's an "interesting" defense when one cannot find evidence for their views in Scripture.

I did NOT spend the time I spent answering you to receive the rather unthoughful answers you have given me.

Opinion noted.

You have my permission to continue believing what you believe.

Well, dang!! Thank you very much.

Just make sure that you're right in your belief.

You don't have to worry about that! My views CAN and HAVE been supported by Scripture.

But at least you've admitted that your views can't be supported from Scripture. The reality is that any "silly argument" can be EASILY defeated by the truth of Scripture.

Here's what Paul said about defeating false doctrine:
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 2 Cor 10:4

Truth always demolishes untruth. If your views are correct, they can be found in Scripture. If they are not correct, they will not be found in Scripture. And that's the whole problem with the loss of salvation view.

 

[FreeGrace]

Said to Wondering:

Are you still covering your head and being quiet in church?

 

[FreeGrace]

Unbelief in Christ means the lake of fire.

Quite true. Those who have not believed and have not received the irrevocable gift of eternal life will certainly end up in the lake of fire.

Striking a rock instead of speaking to it, for the water to come out is not unbelief in God.

Let me inform of what Scriptures say about that event.
Heb 3:19 - So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

OK, did Moses get to enter the promised land? No. Why not? Because of unbelief.
Num 27:12-14
12 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go up this mountain in the Abarim range and see the land I have given the Israelites.
13 After you have seen it, you too will be gathered to your people, as your brother Aaron was,
14 for when the community rebelled at the waters in the Desert of Zin, both of you disobeyed my command to honor me as holy before their eyes.” (These were the waters of Meribah Kadesh, in the Desert of Zin.)

Deut 32:48-52
48 On that same day the LORD told Moses,
49 “Go up into the Abarim Range to Mount Nebo in Moab, across from Jericho, and view Canaan, the land I am giving the Israelites as their own possession.
50 There on the mountain that you have climbed you will die and be gathered to your people, just as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people.
51This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites.
52 Therefore, you will see the land only from a distance; you will not enter the land I am giving to the people of Israel.”

So, their rebellion from Num 27 is described as "broke faith with Me" in Deut.

And this is actual event and God's response to Moses' rebellion and breaking faith with Him:

Num 20:12 - But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”

The scriptures say's Moses was faithful.

Sure. And he STILL didn't get to enter the promised land.

Oh, but he did get to speak with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration with Elijiah, indicating that he clearly was saved.

5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:5-6

Except when he rebelled and broke faith with God by striking the rock when God told him to speak to the rock.

Do you believe those who were cast down alive to hell were saved?

There is no sanity in this question. No one in hell is saved. Salvation is from hell.

31 Now it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them, 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods. 33 So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the assembly.
Numbers 16:31-33
JLB

Oh, I see where your difficulty comes from. You've misunderstand "into the pit" to mean hell, when it only means they fell alive into the the hole in the ground (v.32).

 

[GodsGrace]

They weren't cute. They were simple.


OK, please bring me up to speed by explaining how my doctrine is incorrect, if it is.


What is so interesting about it? Is it canon?


I happen to not like JC. I am not a Calvinist by any stretch of the imagination. If he told people what you claim, then he FAILED to tell them everything. That those who live for themselves will face certain punishment from God and lose reward in eternity. Just read 1 Cor 11:30. "many are weak and sickly, and number have died". Does that sound like a Sunday School picnic?


Nor do I. His views on limited atonement are unbibical.


Since I'm not a Calvinist, let's move on to biblical matters.


Yep. Your view isn't supported from Scripture.


Well, that's an "interesting" defense when one cannot find evidence for their views in Scripture.


Opinion noted.


Well, dang!! Thank you very much.


You don't have to worry about that! My views CAN and HAVE been supported by Scripture.

But at least you've admitted that your views can't be supported from Scripture. The reality is that any "silly argument" can be EASILY defeated by the truth of Scripture.

Here's what Paul said about defeating false doctrine:
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 2 Cor 10:4

Truth always demolishes untruth. If your views are correct, they can be found in Scripture. If they are not correct, they will not be found in Scripture. And that's the whole problem with the loss of salvation view.

Do I sound like a simple person to you?
No simple.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

They weren't cute. They were simple.


OK, please bring me up to speed by explaining how my doctrine is incorrect, if it is.


What is so interesting about it? Is it canon?


I happen to not like JC. I am not a Calvinist by any stretch of the imagination. If he told people what you claim, then he FAILED to tell them everything. That those who live for themselves will face certain punishment from God and lose reward in eternity. Just read 1 Cor 11:30. "many are weak and sickly, and number have died". Does that sound like a Sunday School picnic?


Nor do I. His views on limited atonement are unbibical.


Since I'm not a Calvinist, let's move on to biblical matters.


Yep. Your view isn't supported from Scripture.


Well, that's an "interesting" defense when one cannot find evidence for their views in Scripture.


Opinion noted.


Well, dang!! Thank you very much.


You don't have to worry about that! My views CAN and HAVE been supported by Scripture.

But at least you've admitted that your views can't be supported from Scripture. The reality is that any "silly argument" can be EASILY defeated by the truth of Scripture.

Here's what Paul said about defeating false doctrine:
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 2 Cor 10:4

Truth always demolishes untruth. If your views are correct, they can be found in Scripture. If they are not correct, they will not be found in Scripture. And that's the whole problem with the loss of salvation view.

This all sounds very interesting.
Can you put all this to practical use, like how you use it all in your life, or is it just all on paper?

 

[eddif]

Wonder why this discussion?
Wonder what we learn?

II Corinthians 4:6 KJV
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to givethe light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

God, being smarter than us, knew how to handle all this salvation stuff.

When we see a jerk exhibit something Godly we give God the credit.

If we see a wonderful person do something Godly. We may tend to give the person credit.

God could throw us in a vat of holiness, scrub under our armpits, etc give us a wonderfull appearance and remove all sin, but it would not allow the above verses. At the throne judgement changes take place so we can eternity with God. Till that time I have imperfect flesh and the wonderful mind of Christ.

Does God want sin to have dominion over our life? No! Are we still earthen vessels while alive? Sadly yes.

If we could not fall into sin again and din having dominion, then we would not have an earthern vessel.

I am pretty sure the bronze and gold vessels of the old covenant could teach us much. Of course the carnal mind could warp it all.

Redneck
eddif

 

[JLB]

It is not me who thinks they see God eternally torturing those, including Moses, who were destroyed by God, because of unbelief, and, according to Num. 20:12 both Moses and Aaron were included in the below,

Jude 1:5
I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

That's just it.

You are lumping Moses in with those whom were rebellious, when the scripture says Moses was faithful in all His house as Christ was faithful.

Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. Hebrews 3:1-2


By attempting to justify your Gnostic teaching, you are slandering Moses as being unfaithful, saying he was among those who were rebellious, when the scripture says Moses was faithful as Christ was faithful over His house.

Your teaching says Moses and Christ were unfaithful, which is plainly heresy.

Heresies is listed as one of the works of the flesh.


JLB

 

[LovethroughDove]

I agree, true Christians will cherish their precious salvation, and heed warnings from the Spirit of God and the scriptures.

Cool.:shades

Those who believe for a while then no longer believe, are no longer believers.

Judas Iscariot believed for a while, heard His voice and followed Him for three and one half years, then betrayed Him.

JLB

Judas believed "something", but not (true belief). Maybe he liked some of what Jesus said, maybe he liked to be part of a movement? Who knows. I think he was a: Luke 8:14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.


The following is for those who are true Christians.
Luke 8:15 But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and be persevering produce a crop.

And, these will not be lost.

 

[eddif]

Judas:

John 12:6 KJV
This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

Jesus also knew about the betrayal to come (more money).

eddif

 

[FreeGrace]

Do I sound like a simple person to you?
No simple.

Does this mean that you don't process simple answers??!

What do you want?

 

[FreeGrace]

This all sounds very interesting.
Can you put all this to practical use, like how you use it all in your life, or is it just all on paper?

I gave a long reply, so please kindly point me to what specifically you'd like me to explain what or how to use practically.

 

[FreeGrace]

This is what Freegrace does:

He picks and chooses what Calvin believed.

Heavens, no. I choose to believe what the Bible says. He got some things right and some things wrong. As did Arminius.

Just like he picks and chooses what Jesus and Paul said.

No, I choose to believe everything that Paul and Jesus said. But I guess you missed that.

Very convenient.

No, some truth is very hard. Hardly convenient. But I believe all of it anyway.

I think "all on paper" sounds good to me.

Wondering

Well, the Word of God IS written on paper, right? ;) Or is your copy on papyrus?

 

[FreeGrace]

That's just it.

You are lumping Moses in with those whom were rebellious, when the scripture says Moses was faithful in all His house as Christ was faithful.

Missed my post that revealed all side of Moses? He wasn't permitted to enter the promised land because of his rebellion and breaking faith with God.

Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. Hebrews 3:1-2

Well, just keep reading until there are no more verses in ch 3. The last verse, specifically. He didn't enter the promised land because of unbelief.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I gave a long reply, so please kindly point me to what specifically you'd like me to explain what or how to use practically.

I used the word "all" 3 times.
If you can put all into one sentence, I'll accept that.
Otherwise, please feel free to use as much words as necessary to convince all of us that you know what you are talking about.

 

[FreeGrace]

I used the word "all" 3 times.
If you can put all into one sentence, I'll accept that.
Otherwise, please feel free to use as much words as necessary to convince all of us that you know what you are talking about.

Why would anyone be able to reduce a long post to just one sentence? Or even try to?

If there are specific questions, fire away.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Why would anyone be able to reduce a long post to just one sentence? Or even try to?

If there are specific questions, fire away.

Maybe here's the solution.
Maybe you talk too much.

 

[JLB]

Missed my post that revealed all side of Moses? He wasn't permitted to enter the promised land because of his rebellion and breaking faith with God.

Your slanderous accusation against Moses, fly's in the face of what the Holy Spirit says:

Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. Hebrews 3:1-2


Christ Jesus, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house.


This show us that the faithfulness of Moses was as the faithfulness of Jesus.



JLB

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Maybe here's the solution.
Maybe you talk too much.

I don't mean to sound mean.
What I mean is maybe you can say a lot more with less words.

 

[JLB]

Judas believed "something", but not (true belief). Maybe he liked some of what Jesus said, maybe he liked to be part of a movement? Who knows. I think he was a: Luke 8:14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature.

Judas experienced first hand, and was involved in the persecution and death of Jesus Christ.

He knew what the Pharisee's intended to do to Jesus.

Here is what Jesus taught us about this in the parable of the Sower.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

• The principle for being saved is to believe. Believe = Saved

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:11-13

• Believe for a while = Saved for a while.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Well, just keep reading until there are no more verses in ch 3. The last verse, specifically. He didn't enter the promised land because of unbelief.

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Hebrews 3:16-18

We know Joshua and Caleb were led by Moses, as well as the children who entered the promised land.


Where does it say Moses didn't enter the Promised land because unbelief.


JLB