Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Please help me understand your position. Is one who ceases to believe still born again by the Holy Spirit, or does the Holy Spirit stuff him/her back into the womb?"

Perhaps if you show us in the Bible this womb that believers are born from you'd have a point.

Actually, that was my question for your views. Either one who ceases to believe remains a new creature and born again, or God somehow undoes all that. That's what my statement about "stuffing back into the womb" was about; God reversing the action of giving new birth to those who believe.

And, instead of a simple answer to my clear question, your response dodged it. So I'll take that as a non answer.

I believe that truth ALWAYS has an answer for every question. So when answers are not given, I will always take that as lack of truth in the one being asked. Just my opinion.

But as it is, being born again is simply having Christ's eternal life via the Holy Spirit.

Not that simple. The Bible teaches that those who believe ARE new creatures, or a new creation in 2 Cor 5:17.

It's just as simple to take away the Holy Spirit from a human body as it was putting him in there.

Really? The Bible teaches just the exact opposite. That the indwelling Holy Spirit is a gift of God, per Acts 1:4, 2:38, 8:20, and 10:45.

And...the Bible teaches that the gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

Therefore, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is permanent, irrevocable.

However, since there is disagreement between us, please point out any verse from the New Testament that teaches that God has taken away the Holy Spirit from anyone. Then I'll believe it.

But having read through the NT at least 8 times a year for the past 14 years or so, I've read any such verse.

That's not hard to understand.

That's what I was thinking.

Oh, and in anticipation of your demand for a scripture that shows people being 'unborn' and cast away from the presence of God...
"...if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city" (Revelation 22: NASB bold and underline mine)

As per usual, there is nothing here about being "unborn" as being claimed. And nothing about being "cast away from the presence of God". Your views are assumptions only. Not advisable when forming doctrines.

And in anticipation of you insisting there is Christ's eternal life outside of the city...

"14Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying." (Revelation 22:14-15 NASB bold mine)

Again, there is nothing here about eternal life not existing outside the city gates, since "gates" is the context for v.15.

 

[FreeGrace]

Romans 11;29 says the gifts and calling [together] are irrevocable.

To be clear, the gifts of God are irrevocable, and the calling of God is irrevocable.

 

[FreeGrace]

You are the one claiming a person who believes for a while, is still somehow a believer.

It's a bit tiring to keep reading such UNTRUTHS from your posts. I've NEVER said that one who ceases to believe is still a believer. So please quit propagating these blatant untruths.

The Bible has a word for them; apostates. It means they "no longer believe".

But it's only your assumption that they lose salvation/eternal life, since you've provided ZERO support from Scripture that says anyone has, or can, lose salvation or eternal life.

Assumptions are NOT the way to form doctrines. That's no better than guessing.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

Did these in group 2 bear any fruit?JLB

Nope. And who said anything about having to "bear fruit" in order to receive eternal life? Again, just faulty assumptions that cannot be found in Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace]

I'm left to wonder what "fall away" means.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"
. Romans 6:23

The gift of God IS eternal life
But this gift is given IN CHRIST.

As long as we are IN Christ, we are saved
When we fall away and are no longer In Christ, of our own free will, then we become lost.
Wondering

It would be a huge assumption to think that falling away from one's faith equals being removed from being "in Christ".

Eph 1;13,14 and 4:30 teach that when one believes, they ARE sealed with the Holy Spirit (one of the gifts of God that are irrevocable) as a GUARANTEE for the DAY OF REDEMPTION. Those are clear words.

Even those who grieve the Holy Spirit are STILL sealed for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

But, if there are any verses that contradict these verses and teach that God does, or can, remove the Holy Spirit from one who ceases to believe, and therefore is no longer "in Christ", please share.

Once again, I don't form doctrines from assumption. But from what the Word of God plainly says.

 

[FreeGrace]

Did they endure to the end?
JLB

Clearly not.

Now, one for you to answer: was the second soil in the Tribulation?

 

[GodsGrace]

Your correct.

In the original language fall away from Luke 8:13 is:


fall away - Strong's G868 - aphistēmi

1. 
   
   
   • to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
     1. to excite to revolt
   • to stand off, to stand aloof
     1. to go away, to depart from anyone
     2. to desert, withdraw from one
     3. to fall away, become faithless
     4. to shun, flee from
     5. to cease to vex one
     6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
     7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

The context of Luke 8:13 is someone who willing turn's away [becomes faithless] from Christ under persecution.

Jesus warned of persecution from the unbelieving Jews, to them back to Judaism, and renounce Jesus as a false messiah.

This word is used in Hebrews to describe this very condition, warning the Hebrew Christians not to depart from Him, or else they would have no way to be forgiven sins any longer, and would put Christ to an open shame.

All of Hebrews is a legal argument that Christ is the God who created the heavens and the earth as well as the High Priest of the new Covenant, ie: the very Son of God, and not some false messiah that the unbelieving Jews claim.


Fall away = depart from - become faithless [in Christ]

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

"Departing from" here in this verse, is the same word Jesus used in Luke 8:13 as fall away.

• The context of Hebrews Chapter 3 set's the foundational context for what is taught to us in Hebrews 6 and 10.

4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:4-6


I have more about the condition that is placed on our salvation from these chapters, of which holding fast or keeping the faith producing word to the end is the key. [see the fourth group from Luke 8, that produced fruit]

We can discuss this in the next post as this one is getting too long.

JLB

Yes. Please continue.

The N.T. is full of words like Fall Away, Endure, Hold Fast, Persever.
Jesus warned, as did Paul, that we are to be believers in Christ to be saved.

The OSAS side is always looking for a verse that says specifically we would become "unsaved."

I'd like to know a verse where it says specifically that if we believe in Christ at some point in our lives, we will be saved forever.

There is none because it does not exist. The Apostles took it for granted that those reading would understand the free gift is ours IF WE REMAIN IN CHRIST.

A free gift can always be rejected and returned to the giver.


Wondering

 

[JLB]

Thank you for agreeing with the truth from the scriptures that Jethro presented.

 

[JLB]

Clearly not.

Now, one for you to answer: was the second soil in the Tribulation?

Yes. Because of the word.

The second soil was in tribulation and persecution because of the word.

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Matthew 13:20-21

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


Jesus equated believing and/or enduring, as the conditional lynch-pin for receiving salvation.

Those who endure to the end will be saved.


JLB

 

[dirtfarmer]

They lose the salvation/ eternal life God gave them.
If they were still believers they would not be going to the lake of fire. Forgiven sin doesn't send a person to the lake of fire. The stumbling they do is in regard to staying in Christ and the gospel:

"1...the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain (that is, if Christ is not risen from the dead to begin with - vs.14,17)." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)

"This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. 24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:22-24 NASB)

"...God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life." (1 John 5:11-12 NASB)

hello Jethro Bodine, dirtfarmer here

I agree that forgiven sin doesn't send a person to the lake of fire, but unbelief does.
John 1:29 " The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him , and saith, Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world."

Who is it that keeps us saved? Our humanity that is at enmity with God. It is my understanding that we have died with Christ and have been made a new creature by the death burial and resurrection of Christ, because he lives, I am made alive in him. If our life is hid with Christ, then it is he that keeps us and not we ourselves.
2 Timothy 4:18, " And the Lord shall deliver from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

In Revelation 5 who hade the power to open the "book written within and on the backside"? There was no one but Christ that could open that book. If we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit, scripture states that we have, Then why does man have the power to break that seal and not the one in Revelation?

Once the relationship between God and man has been established through faith in the work of His son on the cross, we are sealed with the seal of the Holy Spirit eternally. Ephesians 1:13-14 " In whom ye also trusted after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with holy Spirit of promise. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." What does purchased possession mean, and if we can become unsaved again, don't we have to pay a higher price than that of Christ for our soul?

 

[JLB]

Yes. Please continue.

The N.T. is full of words like Fall Away, Endure, Hold Fast, Persever.
Jesus warned, as did Paul, that we are to be believers in Christ to be saved.

The OSAS side is always looking for a verse that says specifically we would become "unsaved."

I'd like to know a verse where it says specifically that if we believe in Christ at some point in our lives, we will be saved forever.

There is none because it does not exist. The Apostles took it for granted that those reading would understand the free gift is ours IF WE REMAIN IN CHRIST.

A free gift can always be rejected and returned to the giver.


Wondering

The condition for being saved is believing/enduring to the end.

This involves "holding fast" or "keeping" the word or Gospel message... to the end.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. 14 Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity. 15 But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience. Luke 8:11-15


Paul uses this same word -

Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2

Our initial believing will have been in vain, if we don't continue to believe, to the end.


The writer of the book of Hebrews say's it this way -

14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.

We are Christ's if:

We hold fast the faith producing word [the source of our faith] to the end.

The word confidence in the original is also rendered as "substance" in Hebrews 11.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

Faith is the unseen substance of our hope and rejoicing, as well as our confidence, that we have salvation.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

It would be a huge assumption to think that falling away from one's faith equals being removed from being "in Christ".

Eph 1;13,14 and 4:30 teach that when one believes, they ARE sealed with the Holy Spirit (one of the gifts of God that are irrevocable) as a GUARANTEE for the DAY OF REDEMPTION. Those are clear words.

Even those who grieve the Holy Spirit are STILL sealed for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

But, if there are any verses that contradict these verses and teach that God does, or can, remove the Holy Spirit from one who ceases to believe, and therefore is no longer "in Christ", please share.

Once again, I don't form doctrines from assumption. But from what the Word of God plainly says.

Falling away from one's faith = Being removed from being "In Christ".

What is it that saves us?
it is Faith.
Ephesians 2:8
By Grace we have been saved through FAITH, and that not of yourselves, it is the free Gift of God.

By God's grace we are saved, by His love for us.
It is a free gift that He gives to us. We do not have to pay for it as some churches taught in the long gone past.
We can do nothing to save ourselves, it a a FREE GIFT.

But when do we receive that gift? We receive it by grace through FAITH.
So faith is necessary to receive the free gift.
Does someone who abandons God have faith in God?
If they do not have faith in God, do they have God's free gift?
No. The free gift is given to those who HAVE faith in God through Jesus Christ.

Consider 1 Timothy 1:3-6
Furthering the administration of God is by Faith.
The goal of Paul and the other preachers was a sncere Faith.

Faith is necessary for salvation.
No Faith = No Salvation

Ephesians 1:13-14
The seal of the Holy Spirit

verse 13: After having listened to the message of the gospel, it is IN HIM that we were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

We are sealed when we have the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:9a If we are not in the flesh but in the spirit if indeed the Holy Spirit dwells within us.
Romans 8:9b But if anyone DOES NOT have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST, he does not belong to Him.

If we DO NOT have the spirit of Christ indwelling, then the seal is useless to us.

How.

Because the seal can be changed.

Paul is referring to the seal that Kings used. This seal represented: Security, Authenticity, Ownership and Authority.

The problem with turning to this "seal" for your support of OSAS is that any seal, and thus what was written, by the King of those times, was also subject to be changed. In Esther 8:8-12 we see one instance when this happened.

King Ahasuerus had sent a sealed document that permitted anyone in his kingdom to attack and destroy the Jews. Because the king could not even himself revoke the decree that was marked with his own seal, he issued and sealed another decree that permitted and even encouraged the Jews to arm and defend themselves. In both cases the absolute authority of the decrees was represented in the king’s seal. Those who possessed the sealed decree of the king had the king’s delegated authority set forth in the decree.

It's understood from scripture that this seal is given under the authority of Jesus. As long as we are IN Jesus, the seal is valid, when we remove ourselves from the protection of this seal, we are not longer under the protection of Jesus. Since this method was well known in those days, it was understood that the seal was for those who had the Holy Spirit indwelling.

1 Corinthians 6:19 declares that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
Does the Holy Spirit forceably dwell in the body of one who does not wish Him to be there?

Revelation: 3:20 Jesus is at the door. He knocks. He does NOT force His way in. The Holy Spirit cannot be present when one does not desire Him to be. If I no longer wish to be a Christian and steal and murder - can the Holy Spirit still be indwelling? The answer is No. And if you DO NOT have the spirit of Christ, you DO NOT belong to Him. The seal is no longer valid. You are sealed and under the protection of Christ for as long as you believe and have FAITH since faith is necessary for salvation.

When Christians are sealed with the Holy Spirit they are delegated to proclaim, teach, minister, and defend God’s Word and His gospel with the Lord’s own authority. Is this done by one who no longer desires to have the Holy Spirit in his life? No. The seal no longer has any power.

W

 

[smaller]

What I'm saying is UNBELIEF causes the (former) believer to be cast into the fiery hell.

It pays to read the fine print. IN the citing you keep making, the first principle that is established is this one:

Matt. 18:
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

Those who don't receive such a one are the ones being spoken of. So, how much receiving is being done by those who don't? And "how" are the ones being spoken of NOT receiving?

I would submit the very thing your position is insisting on is in fact the "perp." By demanding hell, rather than receiving such.

Hell isn't in some distance place in space anymore than Gods Love is in some distant place in space. Both are in the here and now, to degrees.

James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

The very hell such positions promote has in fact come upon such carriers. It is the PENALTY OF GOD for "unbelief."

James 3:
8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

For the believer--because he is a believer, trusting in the blood of Christ to cover his sin--his sin is not held to his account (Hebrews 7:25 NASB) that it should somehow condemn him.

The difficulty your positions will always have Jethro, is a blinded failure to recognize the role of our spiritual adversary in all of these matters.

Your positions only see a person. Scripture doesn't see that way.

I suppose if that was my argument I'd be both unscriptural and unreasonable. But as I'm pointing out that is not what I'm saying. UNBELIEF, in a departing of the gospel of forgiveness, is what condemns the now former believer to the flames of hell. Because they no longer have the ministry of Christ at work on their behalf through a faith in that ministry, their sin can't be forgiven by the blood of Christ (Hebrews 10:26 NASB).

Believers who fall are not "alone" in that sin of unbelief just as none of the balance of us are alone in any sin. Sin is for a fact, "of the devil." 1 John 3:8.

The fate that spiritual adversary WILL GET in hell, he proposes to be upon ALL.

Those who believe and promote that LOVE FAILS have already been blinded by that adversary.

Then you believe that Jesus causes people to stumble.

Not whatsoever. But Jesus, His Word, His Ways, does happen to bring the resistance of the adversary(s) to challenge our hearts and minds, beyond any question.

Love warns people about hell. Fake, PC love that lacks the courage to speak the truth in love won't risk the potential offense of telling believers their subsequent unbelief will send them to hell. Their forgiven sin doesn't send them to hell. The failure of their faith and trust in Christ does.

Again, your positions only see people. Scripture, Gods Word, doesn't see that way.

Ephesians 2:
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience

Jesus saved YOU from that spirit.

 

[smaller]

I'm left to wonder what "fall away" means.

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"
. Romans 6:23

The gift of God IS eternal life
But this gift is given IN CHRIST.

As long as we are IN Christ, we are saved
When we fall away and are no longer In Christ, of our own free will, then we become lost.

Wondering

Jesus Is The Seed that was planted. Does the Seed, Jesus fail? No. Die? No. Depart? No.

The Seed however does encounter adversity. That is the meaning of the parables.

People are mistaken as THE SEED by some readers. That is not the case whatsoever.

Luke 8:
11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Now, everyone who thinks the SEED FAILED, raise your hand.

Everyone who raised their hand is in unbelief. They couldn't READ, because the Word was STOLEN from them by the adversary.

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Did the Seed fail? No. Did the Seed depart? No. Did the Seed die? No.

The Seed NEVER FAILS. The people always fail. That's beyond question. And there IS another party involved in these matters that is not the person.

One Jesus ALWAYS LOVES. The other, not so much at all.

We "should" understand that when we "share" the Gospel, THE SEED will do His Work.

Romans 9:18
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes. Please continue.

The N.T. is full of words like Fall Away, Endure, Hold Fast, Persever.
Jesus warned, as did Paul, that we are to be believers in Christ to be saved.

The OSAS side is always looking for a verse that says specifically we would become "unsaved."

Not so. Just looking for a verse that plainly says that one's salvation/eternal life can be taken away.

I'd like to know a verse where it says specifically that if we believe in Christ at some point in our lives, we will be saved forever.

otoh, I'd like to know a verse that says specifically that if we believe in Christ, we will be only temporarily, unless something else occurs or something we do undoes all that.

There is none because it does not exist.

What is certain is that there is no verse that says that salvation or eternal life will be removed for any reason.

The Apostles took it for granted that those reading would understand the free gift is ours IF WE REMAIN IN CHRIST.

The assumption, which I reject, is that we have this mystical power to remove ourselves from the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit, who places us in Him personally.

Consider Eph 1;13,14 (NIV)
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

What is plainly said is that the Holy Spirit is the deposit which guarantees our inheritance.

A free gift can always be rejected and returned to the giver.

Why would one assume that they have the power to return eternal life to God? What verse informs of this?

Wondering

I wonder.

 

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"Now, one for you to answer: was the second soil in the Tribulation?"

Yes. Because of the word.

The second soil was in tribulation and persecution because of the word.[/QUOT]
This totally misunderstands the issue. I capitalized the word "Tribulation" to indicate the 7 year period of time also called "Jacob's trouble". I wasn't speaking of "trials and tribulations" that occur to all of us in life.

And so the goal post was moved in order to pander to your view.

There is NO WAY anyone can claim that the parable of the soils included the 7 year period called The Tribulation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not so. Just looking for a verse that plainly says that one's salvation/eternal life can be taken away.

otoh, I'd like to know a verse that says specifically that if we believe in Christ, we will be only temporarily, unless something else occurs or something we do undoes all that.

What is certain is that there is no verse that says that salvation or eternal life will be removed for any reason.

The assumption, which I reject, is that we have this mystical power to remove ourselves from the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit, who places us in Him personally.

Consider Eph 1;13,14 (NIV)
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

What is plainly said is that the Holy Spirit is the deposit which guarantees our inheritance.

Why would one assume that they have the power to return eternal life to God? What verse informs of this?

I wonder.

There are many verses regarding loss of salvation. JLB and Jethro Bodine have posted many.
We all know the same verses FreeGrace.

Could you just do me the favor of explaining this verse, which no one ever has:

2 Peter 2:20-22

Thanks.

 

[smaller]

There are many verses regarding loss of salvation. JLB and Jethro Bodine have posted many.
We all know the same verses FreeGrace.

Could you just do me the favor of explaining this verse, which no one ever has:

2 Peter 2:20-22

Thanks.

Many believers become worse after salvation. Why? Because the Word draws spiritual adversity and the power of sin, to the flesh. Romans 7:13, 1 Cor. 15:56, Gal. 5:17.

Evil present within the hearts of all, openly resists The Word. And is quite FATED by God to perform that which it does. This excercise is meant precisely to "kill us" and be replaced by Christ.

Romans 9:
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

You can always tell a walking talking dead man. They have NO ETERNAL LIFE of Christ, in them. They instead reek of death and destruction and misery and threats and power mongering over the souls of others.

Romans 3:
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[FreeGrace]

Falling away from one's faith = Being removed from being "In Christ".

I don't accept mere assumptions. Please show me a verse that teaches this plainly.

This is what Scripture plainly teaches us:
Eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23.
The gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

Therefore, eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable. It does not get any more clear and simple than that.

What is it that saves us?
it is Faith.

No, it is God Himself who saves us. In Jesus Christ, also called the Savior.

Ephesians 2:8
By Grace we have been saved through FAITH, and that not of yourselves, it is the free Gift of God.

See, your understanding missed what the verse plainly said.

It didn't say we are saved BY faith, but through faith. And the verse says plainly that we are saved BY grace, NOT by faith. And that grace comes from God. Not ourselves.

By God's grace we are saved, by His love for us.

So now you're changing your views.

It is a free gift that He gives to us.

Note that the gifts of God are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

We do not have to pay for it as some churches taught in the long gone past.
We can do nothing to save ourselves, it a a FREE GIFT.

And that free gift is irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

But when do we receive that gift? We receive it by grace through FAITH.
So faith is necessary to receive the free gift.

Yes, but we are not saved by faith. We are saved by grace through faith. Which is different.

Does someone who abandons God have faith in God?

Clearly not.

If they do not have faith in God, do they have God's free gift?

If they EVER did have faith in Jesus Christ as Savior, then they STILL have that free gift, because the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE, per Rom 11:29.

No. The free gift is given to those who HAVE faith in God through Jesus Christ.

I won't assume anything. What verse says that God takes away, removes, forfeits, etc any of His gifts?

Faith is necessary for salvation.
No Faith = No Salvation

But...once faith, irrevocable eternal life.

Ephesians 1:13-14
The seal of the Holy Spirit

verse 13: After having listened to the message of the gospel, it is IN HIM that we were sealed with the Holy Spirit.

We are sealed when we have the Holy Spirit.

Is there any verse that teaches that the Holy Spirit, a gift of God, can be removed from any believer?

If we DO NOT have the spirit of Christ indwelling, then the seal is useless to us.

No one has this seal UNLESS they have believed in Christ first. And all of God's gifts are irrevocable.

Because the seal can be changed.

Where does the Bible teach this new idea?

Paul is referring to the seal that Kings used. This seal represented: Security, Authenticity, Ownership and Authority.

Uh, no, he specifically referred to the Holy Spirit as the seal. Please read Eph 1:13 again.

The problem with turning to this "seal" for your support of OSAS is that any seal, and thus what was written, by the King of those times, was also subject to be changed. In Esther 8:8-12 we see one instance when this happened.

I do not form doctrines from assumptions. I don't think it is a good idea at all.

1 Corinthians 6:19 declares that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
Does the Holy Spirit forceably dwell in the body of one who does not wish Him to be there?

Oh, I see. One can simply "wish" Him away, huh? Really? Where is that taught in Scripture?

When Christians are sealed with the Holy Spirit they are delegated to proclaim, teach, minister, and defend God’s Word and His gospel with the Lord’s own authority. Is this done by one who no longer desires to have the Holy Spirit in his life? No. The seal no longer has any power.
W

So, the seal no longer has any power, huh? Let's consider what Scripture actually SAYS about that.

Eph 4:30 NIV - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Even grieving the Holy Spirit doesn't cause any loss of His power. We REMAIN sealed for the day of redemption.

I'd love to hear your understanding of Eph 4:30.

Further, consider 1 Thess 5:19 NIV - Do not put out the Spirit’s fire

A number of translations have "do not quench the Spirit".

But, either way, if there EVER was a verse that should teach that we can cause the Holy Spirit to "lose power" or cause Him to disconnect us from Christ, this would be it. Yet, where does it add anything about that?

The point: it doesn't. Why? Because it's just not true.

In spite of grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit, He is a gift to all who have believed, and the gifts of God are irrevocable.

I've given clear and plain verses that support my claims.

I've only seen assumptions from your posts. Without any clear and plain verses that support them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Many believers become worse after salvation. Why? Because the Word draws spiritual adversity and the power of sin, to the flesh. Romans 7:13, 1 Cor. 15:56, Gal. 5:17.

Evil present within the hearts of all, openly resists The Word. And is quite FATED by God to perform that which it does. This excercise is meant precisely to "kill us" and be replaced by Christ.

Romans 9:
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

You can always tell a walking talking dead man. They have NO ETERNAL LIFE of Christ, in them. They instead reek of death and destruction and misery.

Romans 3:
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

I know not death
But Life
Through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ

Proverbs 3:5-6New King James Version (NKJV)
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall directa]" data-fn="#fen-NKJV-16462a">[a] your paths


Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't accept mere assumptions. Please show me a verse that teaches this plainly.

This is what Scripture plainly teaches us:
Eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23.
The gifts of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

Therefore, eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable. It does not get any more clear and simple than that.

No, it is God Himself who saves us. In Jesus Christ, also called the Savior.

See, your understanding missed what the verse plainly said.

It didn't say we are saved BY faith, but through faith. And the verse says plainly that we are saved BY grace, NOT by faith. And that grace comes from God. Not ourselves.

So now you're changing your views.

Note that the gifts of God are irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

And that free gift is irrevocable, per Rom 11:29.

Yes, but we are not saved by faith. We are saved by grace through faith. Which is different.

Clearly not.

If they EVER did have faith in Jesus Christ as Savior, then they STILL have that free gift, because the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE, per Rom 11:29.

I won't assume anything. What verse says that God takes away, removes, forfeits, etc any of His gifts?

But...once faith, irrevocable eternal life.

Is there any verse that teaches that the Holy Spirit, a gift of God, can be removed from any believer?

No one has this seal UNLESS they have believed in Christ first. And all of God's gifts are irrevocable.

Where does the Bible teach this new idea?

Uh, no, he specifically referred to the Holy Spirit as the seal. Please read Eph 1:13 again.

I do not form doctrines from assumptions. I don't think it is a good idea at all.

Oh, I see. One can simply "wish" Him away, huh? Really? Where is that taught in Scripture?

So, the seal no longer has any power, huh? Let's consider what Scripture actually SAYS about that.

Eph 4:30 NIV - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Even grieving the Holy Spirit doesn't cause any loss of His power. We REMAIN sealed for the day of redemption.

I'd love to hear your understanding of Eph 4:30.

Further, consider 1 Thess 5:19 NIV - Do not put out the Spirit’s fire

A number of translations have "do not quench the Spirit".

But, either way, if there EVER was a verse that should teach that we can cause the Holy Spirit to "lose power" or cause Him to disconnect us from Christ, this would be it. Yet, where does it add anything about that?

The point: it doesn't. Why? Because it's just not true.

In spite of grieving or quenching the Holy Spirit, He is a gift to all who have believed, and the gifts of God are irrevocable.

I've given clear and plain verses that support my claims.

I've only seen assumptions from your posts. Without any clear and plain verses that support them.

I gave you my understanding of Ephesians 4:30. It's more than my understanding. It's the belief of major churches of the Christian faith. Except for the reformed one, of course.

I won't be posting anymore assumptions FreeGrace.

However, you do say funny things. Like, for instance, that it's God who saves us through Jesus Christ.
First of all Jesus is God. You separate the three persons of the Trinity? Interesting.
Second of all, God planned our salvation through Jesus? Thank you for the information! I knew this when I was 10 years old.

However, as expected you DID NOT give me an explanation for

2 Peter 2:20-22

Thanks again.
I await your reply.