Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[WIP]

I've thought of this difficult subject for quite some time. Of course, I may have missed some things and made of mistakes, but here is just what I currently think of the matter.

I don't know if it is possible for a true Christian to lose salvation, but I have concluded that a true believer would not leave his faith. If he has truly received new life and experienced a real relationship with God, I think he would not turn his back even in trying times. I also think that those who "left their faith" never really had a real relationship with God in the first place.

As for the possibility of losing salvation, there are many who say it's impossible, as it would be logically impossible to "reverse the new birth."

Just my thoughts. I can't say anything ultimately conclusive.

A struggle I have with what you posted above is that mankind is fickle, weak, and untrustworthy even with himself. We make mistakes, we are prideful, and it is impossible for us to live perfect righteous lives. It’s just not in us as God Himself has pointed out that every intent of the thoughts of our heart is only evil continually. (ref. Gen. 6:5).

“If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.” 1 John 1:6-10 NKJV

Does this Scripture seem to contradict itself or what? How can we ever claim to be “true Christians” or “true believers?” What really is the definition of a true believer or true Christian? Maybe that needs to be defined more clearly. Only God knows for sure who is or who is not a true believer for God knows and judges us by our heart. I dare say Paul was a true believer and yet he penned the following.

“For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!” Romans 7:15-25 NKJV

My spiritual self is in constant turmoil and at war with my carnal nature but I believe God can and will deliver me if I put my trust and faith in Jesus Christ! Because He, God Almighty Himself, loves me I owe Him all of the love, gratitude, respect, appreciation, admiration, affection, reverence, honor, glory, devotion, dedication, and commitment I can muster. With a humble heart I will do my very best to follow His command to love one another as He has loved us (ref. John 13:34) and work out my own salvation with fear and trembling (ref. Phil. 2:12) not because of what He might do for me in return but because of the finished work (ref. John 17:1-4 & 19:28-30) He has already done on my behalf.

Thank you Lord Jesus Christ!!!

 

[smaller]

What about the part I put in blue? Does that mean nothing?

And even more obvious my friend is that there is a person in the flesh and the devil who operates in same flesh regardless of whether we can see it on the outside. An external sin only means confirmation of what is already indwelling the flesh and that is sin, which is demonic in nature.

If we need conviction on this matter we might perceive that Jesus delineated quite clearly that the mere thought of EVIL is both evil and defiling. Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23 all serve to show the quite Rock Solid Fact that Paul lays on himself in Romans 7:21 and it is also shown in Heb. 10:22.

So the notion that "external sins" are the only measure of evil present or defiling or sin is patently untrue. Any honest person can examine their own thoughts and find evil defiling therein in the form of evil defiling thoughts. Jesus didn't say "these might happen." They do happen. Paul delineates this again in Romans 7:7-13 proving, openly, that in his own mind this happened.

Committing sins begins internally by the slightest evil defling thought and on this basis every person who has ever lived is a proven sinner other than God Himself in the flesh.

We can add to this that Satan performs the sin of THEFT in people as well, by observing Mark 4:15. So right there proves that sin of Satan transpires in man and does so BY the devil, Satan. This is again verified by Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4 and in many other similar citings.

All of these facts should and will lead to the conclusion that there are two parties in operations here. And that Satan, the devil, is one of those parties.

Now do you honestly think Satan, the devil, is going to reform his operations or works in the flesh?

I'd have to say no. Honestly.

 

[JLB]

Every believer is a sinner.

No sir. People who walk with God in righteousness, because they have been given the Holy Spirit and forgiven of their sins, are not sinners.

Those who sin as a lifestyle are sinners.

7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin... 1 John 3:7-9


JLB

 

[smaller]

Every believer is a sinner

No sir.

And therein lies the root of differences in sight.

I'll go with Paul on this count over any claims to the contrary.

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

 

[WIP]

No sir. People who walk with God in righteousness, because they have been given the Holy Spirit and forgiven of their sins, are not sinners.

I might be wrong but this seems to contradict much of what you've been saying until now. How do you reconcile what you just wrote with 1 John 1:8?

 

[Nathanael Chong]

A struggle I have with what you posted above is that mankind is fickle, weak, and untrustworthy even with himself. We make mistakes, we are prideful, and it is impossible for us to live perfect righteous lives. It’s just not in us as God Himself has pointed out that every intent of the thoughts of our heart is only evil continually. (ref. Gen. 6:5).

“If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.” 1 John 1:6-10 NKJV

Does this Scripture seem to contradict itself or what? How can we ever claim to be “true Christians” or “true believers?” What really is the definition of a true believer or true Christian? Maybe that needs to be defined more clearly. Only God knows for sure who is or who is not a true believer for God knows and judges us by our heart. I dare say Paul was a true believer and yet he penned the following.

“For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!” Romans 7:15-25 NKJV

My spiritual self is in constant turmoil and at war with my carnal nature but I believe God can and will deliver me if I put my trust and faith in Jesus Christ! Because He, God Almighty Himself, loves me I owe Him all of the love, gratitude, respect, appreciation, admiration, affection, reverence, honor, glory, devotion, dedication, and commitment I can muster. With a humble heart I will do my very best to follow His command to love one another as He has loved us (ref. John 13:34) and work out my own salvation with fear and trembling (ref. Phil. 2:12) not because of what He might do for me in return but because of the finished work (ref. John 17:1-4 & 19:28-30) He has already done on my behalf.

Thank you Lord Jesus Christ!!!

I understand what you are pointing out, and I agree with you. Did I say anything that implies that a true believer is without struggle? In my finite knowledge, I cannot define what a true Christian, who is truly saved, is. However, I have a feeling that a person whom God sees as a true believer will not forsake Him. This is, after all, directly addressing the original question in the title. As long as we are in the flesh, no matter who we are, we will still have a warring between the spirit and the body.

 

[JLB]

I might be wrong but this seems to contradict much of what you've been saying until now. How do you reconcile what you just wrote with 1 John 1:8?

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. 1 John 1:8-10

Verse 9 is the answer.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...

Paul says it this way -

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 2 Timothy 2:20-22

God desires for us to turn away from lust's and to not be conformed to this world be transformed by the renewing of our mind, and cleanse ourselves from being a vessel of dishonor, so that we will be transformed into the image of Christ, who is a vessel of honor, as we are all called to be.

It starts with confessing our sin, and being forgiven. Growing up into Christ, to the fullness and stature of a complete man, walking with Him, and being led by His Spirit.

Peter says it this way -

Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
1 Peter 4:1-3

and again

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:5-9

We have been cleansed from our old sins, and have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness.

Everyday is a new day.

Yesterday, is in the past, God has forgiven you, of your sins from yesterday, if you committed any, and if you confess them to Him.

Today is a new day.

Today is the first day of the rest of your life.

Today is the day of salvation.

Bless Him and thank Him for today, while spending time with Him and seeking Him.

Ask Him to show you how to add... to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love... For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For this is the will of God, that you would be holy.

Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; Hebrews 12:14-15



JLB

 

[WIP]

Thanks, JLB. It sounds like there is a difference between a sinner and one who commits a sin. Am I on track?

 

[Sinthesis]

Luk 5:32 - I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

1Ti 1:15 - This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
​

Notice that Paul in his letter to Timothy refers to himself as a sinner in the present tense.

 

[JLB]

Thanks, JLB. It sounds like there is a difference between a sinner and one who commits a sin. Am I on track?

Yes sir!

 

[JLB]

Luk 5:32 - I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

1Ti 1:15 - This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
​

Notice that Paul in his letter to Timothy refers to himself as a sinner in the present tense.

Maybe you could explain further, what point you are making.

From the context...

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
1 Timothy 1:12-17


Paul is identifying with those whom Timothy has been called to oversee, so that they will be encouraged by his testimony.

This to me, is along the lines of Paul saying...

Guys if God did this for me, and put me, of all people in the ministry, he can do the same for you, so be encouraged and forget about your past, and press on...

Luk 5:32 - I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Once a sinner repents, and is translated into the kingdom of God, and clothed with the righteousness of God in Christ, are they still considered a "sinner", in your mind?


JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Thanks, JLB. It sounds like there is a difference between a sinner and one who commits a sin. Am I on track?

 

[smaller]

The topic matter has been an age long problem to perceive.

Is it eternal love, mercy and grace with no judgment and eternal punishment?

Is it judgment and eternal punishment with no love, mercy and grace?

It's hard for us to perceive that all measures will be fulfilled. It is even more difficult to perceive that all measures will be fulfilled upon what we perceive only as an individual believer.

Example?

We know Paul had evil defiling thoughts which were lawless i.e. against the law. Romans 7:7-13
We know Paul was deceived by sin. Romans 7:11
We know Paul had sin indwelling his flesh, noted interestingly as "no longer I" twice. Romans 7:17-20
We know Paul did things he hated. Romans 7:15
We know Paul DID evil. Romans 7:19

And if we are honest with ourselves, we'll find the identical situation with ourselves.

How do we find both love and judgment in the above? If we lean only to love, judgment is evaporated, evil and sin, excused. That will not work.

If we find only eternal judgment, then love failed.

I'd submit the answer is rather obvious. There were two different vessels in Paul, just as Paul delineated above, identifying the sin indwelling his flesh as "no longer I."

Paul also shows this identical feature upon an individual, "ME," in Romans 9:18-24 showing TWO vessels in ONE lump. Identical principle is delineated again in 2 Tim. 2:20-21.

Paul shows it again in Romans 11:8 upon unbelieving Israel, showing a "spirit of slumber/stupor" was put upon them, by God no less. Again, two vessels. The individual and that spirit put upon them that was not them.

IF we read Jesus' accounts of the parable of the seed, we'll see it again. Where the Word is sown, Satan enters the heart to SIN via theft. Again, TWO vessels, ONE person, or so it appears to us. But that isn't the case. There is the person and there is Satan who enters the heart to sin. Count 'em. TWO.

Paul lays this identical sight upon his own flesh in 2 Cor. 12:7, proving that a messenger of Satan was IN HIS OWN FLESH.

I would submit the answer is quite easy. Paul received Grace, Mercy and Love from God in Christ.

The messenger of Satan in his own flesh, the OPPOSITE fate is in store. Judgment and eternal damnation.

Both positions will land on what we perceive as "only the believer." That's just not the scriptural case, that there is ONLY the believer. There is the believer, and there is the tempter, internally tempting and sin indwelling the flesh in the form of evil present with us.

The serpent has in effect, been eating dust, that is OUR BODY, from the beginning. Gen. 3:14

That now "old" serpent has captured the flesh. That flesh eventually dies. The habitation of flesh in which abides the tempter gets turned into DUST by DEATH. Countless billions of said serpents flesh habitations end up blowing in the wind.

This is shown again, here, by Jesus:

Matthew 10:36
And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Luke 11:24
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

Luke 8:27
And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.

If we see, as John shows us in 1 John 3:8, then the answer is quite obvious.

The house of the serpent (and his family) is the FLESH OF MAN.

The instant any believer concedes that their own temptation is of the tempter in their own flesh, placing the tempter IN the flesh to do so, they will understand.

And there is/was no exception, other than God Himself in the flesh.

This was the "woe" of the prophets. This was why both Abraham and Job saw their own bodies as DUST.

Yes, Eternal Love AND Eternal Judgment will LAND in the same place.

And Satan will FORCE you as a believer NOT to see his hiding place. And you will be BLINDED to this realty by our enemy.

When any believer reads Mark 4:15, and God in Christ GRANTs them sight to understand that this DOES happen to us, even after salvation, then they will start their "real" journey, walking with Christ and being against the enemy in our own FLESH.

 

[JLB]

Is it eternal love, mercy and grace with no judgment and eternal punishment?

Is it judgment and eternal punishment with no love, mercy and grace?

Neither.

It's Love and mercy and grace, with eternal punishment to those who are disobedient, and choose to live unrighteously, while spitting in the face of the the One bestowing grace and mercy and love.

The writer of the book of Hebrews calls it... Insulting the Spirit of Grace, and trampling the blood of Jesus underfoot, as something common.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Neither.

It's Love and mercy and grace, with eternal punishment to those who are disobedient, and choose to live unrighteously, while spitting in the face of the the One bestowing grace and mercy and love.

The writer of the book of Hebrews calls it... Insulting the Spirit of Grace, and trampling the blood of Jesus underfoot, as something common.

JLB

I have learned to view my flesh, and more accurately it's condition, in the harshest Word terms possible. I do understand if others don't "get it." I'll find LIFE and go headlong into Every Word of God in Christ, where most will run away and hide and deflect from His Words, because most see torture to their "self."

Luke 13:27
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Yes, those Words are meant for our LIFE.

 

[Sinthesis]

Once a sinner repents, and is translated into the kingdom of God, and clothed with the righteousness of God in Christ, are they still considered a "sinner", in your mind?

Yes, but I include all Christians in that group because we sinners are whom Jesus came to save, and at no point are we made so righteous that we no longer need Jesus' gift. Ironically, it would be a sin to believe we were so righteous.

Luk 18:9 ¶ And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luk 18:10 - Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 - The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 - I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 - And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 - I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.​

 

[JLB]

I have learned to view my flesh, and more accurately it's condition, in the harshest Word terms possible. I do understand if others don't "get it." I'll find LIFE and go headlong into Every Word of God in Christ, where most will run away and hide and deflect from His Words, because most see torture to their "self."

Luke 13:27
But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

Yes, those Words are meant for our LIFE.

As you can see from this scripture, sinners; workers of iniquity will be lost.


JLB

 

[Corn Pop]

He knows the hearts of them that believe and do there best to obey there Father and who repents, and he knows the hearts of them who believe but dont repent or do there best to obey there Father but follow there own wordly desires.

Everyone is under authority and they must do there best to follow authority, God forgives a repentful heart.

If you sin and repent, Christ has covered it, thats the only way to stay blameless.

 

[JLB]

Yes, but I include all Christians in that group because we sinners are whom Jesus came to save, and at no point are we made so righteous that we no longer need Jesus' gift. Ironically, it would be a sin to believe we were so righteous.

Luk 18:9 ¶ And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Luk 18:10 - Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
Luk 18:11 - The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 - I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Luk 18:13 - And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
Luk 18:14 - I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.​

Who in the world thinks we stop needing Jesus gift?

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...

We need Jesus every moment of every day.

Don't you think at some point, we are to be walking in victory over sin?

When does the work of transformation begin to show forth through our lives, and demonstrate to a lost and dying world we have changed?

Do you think Paul, lived a lifestyle of sinning, among the Gentiles who he lived with everyday, as he raised up churches among them in their city?

What was Paul's sin?


JLB

 

[smaller]

As you can see from this scripture, sinners; workers of iniquity will be lost.
JLB

So will liars who say they have no sin or are not sinners.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.