Is It Possible to be Free of Sin?

[GodsGrace]

I'm not arguing anything or putting anyone down. I'm trying to find out where DD is coming from, since he avoids answering simple questions. I read his teaching on the link he provided, and it appears to me that he is teaching the "Christian Perfection" idea that was taught by John Wesley and Charles Finney, albeit there are differences among them. But if you try to tell me that I cannot confront bad doctrine, then maybe you should report me to the moderator. If you want to follow that path, that's your prerogative. I'm here to discuss what the Bible actually says. If I see something contrary to the teaching of scripture, I'm not going to be silent. If you see that as a put down, then I think you have a filter you're looking through. I'm just trying to follow what Jesus and the apostles did by attempting to correct what I see wrong. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone.
TD

We, on this forum, don't tend to report anybody.
I'm not arguing with you either...my question was sincere and I apologize if it didn't sound like it.

I'm saying that DiscipleDave does NOT have wrong doctrine. He's doing exactly what Jesus said we should do.
Also, we have to remember that not of all of are called for certain things....I haven't read his link, but what I read here is enough.

For instance, I know a person that gives away almost all he earns to help the poor. I don't do this...Am I supposed to?
It would be what Jesus would want...but I don't feel God is telling me to do this, and the reason is probably because I couldn't anyway for several reasons.

DD probably hates to reply to you because he must get criticized for this all the time and see an argument coming. Or maybe he missed the post,,,who knows.

I don't know Finney, but I do know Wesley and, if I remember right, by the end of his life he had decided this idea of his was not really possible. If you have a way to find out,,,I wish you would and then post it.

What do you think he's doing wrong???
It seems to be working for him.
God bless him!

Because you or I can't seem to attain that standard is no reason to say he has the incorrect doctrine.

 

[tdidymas]

We, on this forum, don't tend to report anybody.
I'm not arguing with you either...my question was sincere and I apologize if it didn't sound like it.

I'm saying that DiscipleDave does NOT have wrong doctrine. He's doing exactly what Jesus said we should do.
Also, we have to remember that not of all of are called for certain things....I haven't read his link, but what I read here is enough.

For instance, I know a person that gives away almost all he earns to help the poor. I don't do this...Am I supposed to?
It would be what Jesus would want...but I don't feel God is telling me to do this, and the reason is probably because I couldn't anyway for several reasons.

DD probably hates to reply to you because he must get criticized for this all the time and see an argument coming. Or maybe he missed the post,,,who knows.

I don't know Finney, but I do know Wesley and, if I remember right, by the end of his life he had decided this idea of his was not really possible. If you have a way to find out,,,I wish you would and then post it.

What do you think he's doing wrong???
It seems to be working for him.
God bless him!

Because you or I can't seem to attain that standard is no reason to say he has the incorrect doctrine.

I'm not prepared to evaluate DD's doctrine point-by-point, unless he engages. I can only surmise if he doesn't answer the question if he believes he is sinlessly perfect. I only see what he wrote and it appears that is what he is teaching. If you would like to discuss the matter, I'm willing to do so.

I was once in that camp, but was duly corrected. I came to realize that 1 Jn. 3:9 is not teaching that there is a sinless state that can be achieved. If that were the case, he would not have written 1:8. Therefore the only conclusion I draw from this is that he is talking about direction of life. 2 Pet. 1:3-11 speaks of the Christian virtues increasing. So then, if a person believes he has reached a sinless state, then how can the virtues then increase? Any decrease or need for an increase in virtue speaks of some degree of falling short of the glory of God, which is some degree of sinfulness. One does not have to practice adultery or drunkenness to be sinful. Sin in us is revealed during trials when it becomes obvious we are falling short.

Finally, it is not our efforts toward holiness that adds value to our spiritual nature. The way I read the NT is that we are to live by faith. That is, we are to believe that God is the one doing the sanctifying work, since the scripture clearly says so. If we think it is by our effort, then our faith is misdirected. All the commands of scripture have faith in God's work in our hearts as the background truth. If our faith is directed elsewhere, we are disobedient. (ref Rom. 1:17)
TD

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not prepared to evaluate DD's doctrine point-by-point, unless he engages. I can only surmise if he doesn't answer the question if he believes he is sinlessly perfect. I only see what he wrote and it appears that is what he is teaching. If you would like to discuss the matter, I'm willing to do so.

You say it "appears that is what he is teaching".
Are we here to teach??
I keep hearing this.
I'm here to discuss scripture, the nature of God, man's responsibility, etc. If anyone learns one little thing from what I post....great. But teaching? IDK...maybe.

I was once in that camp, but was duly corrected. I came to realize that 1 Jn. 3:9 is not teaching that there is a sinless state that can be achieved. If that were the case, he would not have written 1:8. Therefore the only conclusion I draw from this is that he is talking about direction of life. 2 Pet. 1:3-11 speaks of the Christian virtues increasing. So then, if a person believes he has reached a sinless state, then how can the virtues then increase? Any decrease or need for an increase in virtue speaks of some degree of falling short of the glory of God, which is some degree of sinfulness. One does not have to practice adultery or drunkenness to be sinful. Sin in us is revealed during trials when it becomes obvious we are falling short.

1 John 3:9 simply mans living a life of sin...I agree with your exegesis above. I also don't believe it's possible to be perfected in this life. I study with a monk in a sanctuary once a month....he thinks he's a sinner just like everyone esle.

Finally, it is not our efforts toward holiness that adds value to our spiritual nature. The way I read the NT is that we are to live by faith. That is, we are to believe that God is the one doing the sanctifying work, since the scripture clearly says so. If we think it is by our effort, then our faith is misdirected. All the commands of scripture have faith in God's work in our hearts as the background truth. If our faith is directed elsewhere, we are disobedient. (ref Rom. 1:17)
TD

Where does scripture say it's God doing the sanctifying work?

I learned from two different churches that sanctification is a cooperative effort between God and Man...that's why it's called a relationship...it takes two to have a relationship.

And I keep hearing that God does it all, He does everything.
Is it HIM failing when we sin? (since He does everything).

Tomorrow.
1 am here.

click to expand

 

[tdidymas]

You say it "appears that is what he is teaching".
Are we here to teach??
I keep hearing this.
I'm here to discuss scripture, the nature of God, man's responsibility, etc. If anyone learns one little thing from what I post....great. But teaching? IDK...maybe.

Did you actually read what DD wrote in the link he provided? If you can't call it teaching, then methinks you are somewhat naive.

In fact, every one of us are witnesses in some way. Whatever we do, say, or write is teaching what we believe, right or wrong. Anything you assert is what you are teaching.

1 John 3:9 simply mans living a life of sin...I agree with your exegesis above. I also don't believe it's possible to be perfected in this life. I study with a monk in a sanctuary once a month....he thinks he's a sinner just like everyone esle.

Agree. It's about direction of life, not about sinlessness.

Where does scripture say it's God doing the sanctifying work?

I learned from two different churches that sanctification is a cooperative effort between God and Man...that's why it's called a relationship...it takes two to have a relationship.

And I keep hearing that God does it all, He does everything.
Is it HIM failing when we sin? (since He does everything).

Here's a few:
1Pet. 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
2Thes. 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Rom. 15:16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
Phil. 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

IMO the cooperation in relationship has to do with faith in God, not faith in ourselves or our natural ability. That would be dividing our faith between God and us. Usually, the term "cooperative effort" is used in a legalistic context, because those teaching it are afraid of antinomianism (ref James 2:14). The point being, such people lack faith or understanding of the gospel, and settle for partly grace, partly law, which is falling short of the glory of the gospel message.

Just because you learn something in church doesn't make it true. And just because someone quotes a Bible verse doesn't make what they are saying Biblical.
TD

 

[JLB]

I'm not arguing anything or putting anyone down. I'm trying to find out where DD is coming from, since he avoids answering simple questions. I read his teaching on the link he provided, and it appears to me that he is teaching the "Christian Perfection" idea that was taught by John Wesley and Charles Finney, albeit there are differences among them. But if you try to tell me that I cannot confront bad doctrine, then maybe you should report me to the moderator. If you want to follow that path, that's your prerogative. I'm here to discuss what the Bible actually says. If I see something contrary to the teaching of scripture, I'm not going to be silent. If you see that as a put down, then I think you have a filter you're looking through. I'm just trying to follow what Jesus and the apostles did by attempting to correct what I see wrong. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone.
TD

Amen, you are a thoughtful and insightful person, looking for answers.


I get it.



JLB

 

[JLB]

IMO the cooperation in relationship has to do with faith in God, not faith in ourselves or our natural ability. That would be dividing our faith between God and us. Usually, the term "cooperative effort" is used in a legalistic context, because those teaching it are afraid of antinomianism (ref James 2:14). The point being, such people lack faith or understanding of the gospel, and settle for partly grace, partly law, which is falling short of the glory of the gospel message.

Just because you learn something in church doesn't make it true. And just because someone quotes a Bible verse doesn't make what they are saying Biblical.

Faith requires our “cooperative effort” of obedience to the word by which we receive faith.


Otherwise the faith that we have remains dormant, or dead as James says, and incomplete.


Some see this effort of obedience as “legalistic”.



How do you see it?




JLB

 

[DiscipleDave]

Those sins are called transgressions in scripture.
They are ongoing sins that aren't possible to stop right away.
Living with someone you are not married to falls into this category as an example.

Living with someone is not sinful nor a transgression. Having sex with someone you are not married to, is what is sinful and a Transgression. You may not be able to choose who you live with, but you most certainly can choose who you have sex with. You may not be able to cease from living with someone, but you most certainly can cease from having sex with them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Did you actually read what DD wrote in the link he provided? If you can't call it teaching, then methinks you are somewhat naive.

I know DD and I've skimmed through his link some time ago. I think that if this works for him, then good. Since it worked for him....he's trying to diffuse the knowledge he's gained. As I've said,,,this does not work. This is why it's good to know that God speaks to us in different ways.

I repeat...this does not mean he's wrong.
Jesus came to free us from the bondage of sin and the fear of death.

He also came to show us how to live in the Kingdom of God while we are here on earth....and to not live in the Kingdom of the World...although we are part of it and cannot escape it.

In fact, every one of us are witnesses in some way. Whatever we do, say, or write is teaching what we believe, right or wrong. Anything you assert is what you are teaching.

Here's the difference. When I have REALLY taught (kids) it was not MY doctrine but those of the church wherein I was doing the teaching. Of course you have to believe what you're saying or it's difficult to speak the words (not for everyone BTW,,,some find it easy to speak what they do not believe).

While on here, I put forth what I've learned to be true from different sources. Someone could disagree, but it's not so much me they're disagreeing with, but those who have created the theology.

Teaching is a big responsibility for which we'll answer to God. James 3:1
However, I DO understand your point...and, who knows, maybe we are teaching....


Agree. It's about direction of life, not about sinlessness.


Here's a few:
1Pet. 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
2Thes. 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
Rom. 15:16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
Phil. 2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

How do the above verses show that we do not need to cooperate with God for our sanctification?
1 Peter 1:2
The Holy Spirit does a sanctifying work in us so that we could OBEY Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
It's about the same. We have been chosen from the beginning of time to be sanctified and this will be the cause of our salvation. This by faith in the truth...
So...what is the truth?
What does it mean to be sanctified?
If our very salvation depends on this...I'd say those are two important questions to answer.

Philippians 2:13
God works within us to bring about in us what gives Him pleasure --- our obedience to Him. See verse 12 that speaks of our obedience to Him.

This is how a relationship works:
God desires our obedience
We obey and He loves us and saves us.
This is the obedience of out faith in Him.

IMO the cooperation in relationship has to do with faith in God, not faith in ourselves or our natural ability. That would be dividing our faith between God and us. Usually, the term "cooperative effort" is used in a legalistic context, because those teaching it are afraid of antinomianism (ref James 2:14). The point being, such people lack faith or understanding of the gospel, and settle for partly grace, partly law, which is falling short of the glory of the gospel message.

No division.
We have faith in God.
We have faith in what He tells us to do,,,in how He tells us to behave. We have faith in what He wants to accomplish in us. The faith is totally in Him...otherwise I'd be able to save myself just by being good. No need for Jesus' to have offered Himself.

But if we don't cooperate in replying to His love....
How does that show our faith?
Yes. James said faith without works is dead....non-existent.

Just because you learn something in church doesn't make it true. And just because someone quotes a Bible verse doesn't make what they are saying Biblical.
TD

Ditto!
So where do YOU learn?
And who do YOU listen to?

click to expand

 

[DiscipleDave]

So then, are you sinlessly perfect, or not?
TD

i have not committed any sin that i know of today, what does that make me? Today i walk like Jesus walked, today i am perfect because of Him who lives inside me, leading me not into temptation (which is in the Lord's Prayer) So then you judge, if i commit no sin TODAY does that make me perfect TODAY?
Now can i say that i will remain Perfect till i die or Christ Returns? Heavens no. But it is enough that i am today, and tomorrow, i will repeat today, and the next, and the next.

 

[DiscipleDave]

I'm just trying to find out where DD is coming from. I read his teaching on the link and I think he is teaching the Christian Perfection idea that John Wesley and Charles Finney taught. But since I don't know for certain, I've got to ask, and I have to start somewhere.

What does it matter what i, discipledave, teaches or believes? What matters is if what i say is contrary to Scriptures, that is what is important. You said you read the link, tell me what on those links did you read that is CONTRARY to Scriptures? Maybe contrary to what you personally believe, but can you show anything, anything at all that is contrary to Scriptures? You say that it is my teaching, and i say it is not my teaching, but is what the Word of God teaches.

To answer your question, we are forgiven, not perfect. When Paul wrote "whoever is perfect among you..." he was being facetious. If anyone thinks himself sinless, he doesn't understand Paul and John's doctrine, IMO.

Tell me, the Crippled man that was in that condition for 38 YEARS, was Healed by Jesus in John Chapter 5, says to the man "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. " Tell me, did Jesus really mean what He told that man, or was He just kidding? i mean if it is not possible to cease from sin, as this generation teaches, then why would Jesus say what he said to the man? Another question for you. After hearing Jesus say that to him, do you think after being cripple for THIRTY EIGHT YEARS, that he would commit another sin, and be worse than he was before? All of Scriptures teaches AGAINST sinning.

Perfection of spirit mentioned by the writer of Hebrews doesn't make a person sinlessly perfect. What spiritual perfection does is powerfully influence the soul, but doesn't guarantee sinlessness. Thus John writes "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves..."

i have sinned. i have sinned plenty, i have many sins, i have sinned more than you three fold probably, i have done many sinful things. What does that have to do with, that i no longer continue to sin? Just because i say i no longer continue to sin, does not in the slightest say that i have no sin.

Word of God says this: 1Jn_1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
word of this generation reads that same verse to say: if we say we no longer sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Do you see how this generation changed the verse to fit into their own false beliefs?

Paul also wrote to the Corinthians to purify themselves of defilements of flesh and spirit, which proves that Paul understood being born again doesn't guarantee even spiritual perfection.

To purify something is to make it PURE correct. You testify that Paul just instructed Christians to purify themselves of defilements of the Flesh AND Spirit, both. If then someone knowingly and willingly commits sin, that is to say they knowingly and willinlgy obey the enemy of Jesus and obey satan's temptation to do that which is evil, How have they DONE what Paul instructed them to do? To purify themself, to make Pure, not to make filthy, not to return to the vomit, not to return to the mire.

As long as the Holy Spirit is doing the work of sanctification in us, there is room for improvement.

Amen, that is why i said in a previous post to take one sin and get it out of your life, then take another and then work on that one.

That need will continue to exist as long as we are alive physically.

Scriptures please? Or is that just something you personally believe?

It is part of spiritual growth to persevere in faith, and that faith is that Christ delivers from sin, and not we ourselves. Not even by so-called "free will."
TD

Amen, and that is True, we are in a race, and not have yet won that race. Spiritual growth is real, going from one Spiritual level to another, to another, and yet to another. Any kind of knowingly sinning prevents farther Spiritual growth. This is Spiritual lull. Where you feel "Blahhhh" Not moving ahead, not moving behind, Lost, not knowing what direction God wants you to go, or what He wants you to do.

If someone in a race thinks they will not win that race, will in all likelihood not finish that race. If someone thinks they are ugly, will not volunteer for a beauty pagent.
You testify above that Christ delivers from sin, but not all of them right? If He delivered you from all your sins, then how would you not be perfect? But because you don't believe it is possible to be delivered of all your sins, how will you attain that? If you thought i was telling you the TRUTH, which i am, because Rev 21:8 is clear, ALL LIARS shall be cast into Fire and Brimstone, then you would have to start believing it is possible. So then whatever sin that you engage in regularly Christ can deliver you from that, yes? Then why hasn't he delivered you of it? Are you willing to let it go?

 

[DiscipleDave]

I'm not arguing anything or putting anyone down. I'm trying to find out where DD is coming from, since he avoids answering simple questions.

i'm sorry that you feel that i did not answer you, tell me what question have you asked me, that i did not answer?

I read his teaching on the link he provided, and it appears to me that he is teaching the "Christian Perfection" idea that was taught by John Wesley and Charles Finney, albeit there are differences among them.

i do not know who those men are, nor what they taught, i only know what Scriptures teach. If you read the links and you disagree with something therein, then reveal the Scriptures that is contrary to what is in those links. If i am teaching something that is contrary to Scriptures, should you not do the Godly thing and reveal to me the errors? So show me Scriptures that contradict what is in those links, so that i may correct those errors if in Truth there be errors in those links. Thanks.

But if you try to tell me that I cannot confront bad doctrine, then maybe you should report me to the moderator.

Confronting bad doctrine is a Godly thing to do. Why do you think i confront the false doctrine that we cannot cease from sinning, and i use Scriptures to confront that bad doctrine. Likewise if you believe i am teaching bad doctrine, where are the Scriptures that contradict what i am teaching? Or is it just your opinion that contradicts what i teach? Either way, reveal something i taught that you disagree with. Else how are we going to discuss those issues which you think is bad doctrine?

If you want to follow that path, that's your prerogative. I'm here to discuss what the Bible actually says. If I see something contrary to the teaching of scripture, I'm not going to be silent.

Amen, and amen. The problem however is you are not revealing anything that is contrary to the teaching of Scriptures. You are not being silent and that is a good thing, but you are also not presenting evidence about what you are accusing. You say i teach bad doctrine, you say that it is contrary to Scriptures, yet you have not once showed anything that i have said or is in the links, that is actually contrary to any Scriptures. We are most certainly to confront any doctrine, belief, or ideal that is contrary to Scriptures, but if you are going to accuse a Brother or Sister of doing such, then reveal what they actually said, that is contrary to Scriptures, instead of merely accusing them of bad doctrine. i can accuse you as being a thief. But if i do not tell you what it was that i think you stole, how can you defend against an accusation without any evidence of what is being accused against you?

If you see that as a put down, then I think you have a filter you're looking through. I'm just trying to follow what Jesus and the apostles did by attempting to correct what I see wrong. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone.
TD

i don't feel like you have disrespected me at all Brother. But i will feel that way if you accuse me of bad doctrine, or teaching contrary to Scriptures, but then do not reveal to anyone what that doctrine is, or what teaching is contrary to Scriptures. Tell us therefore, what have i said here, or in the links that you feel is bad doctrine or contrary to Scriptures?

Thanks. Love you Brother.

 

[GodsGrace]

If the Lord wills it, that would be great.

A big problem that the Lord helped me with, was trying to Love those who do not love me at all. Those who would start a rumor then i am fired. For example i was working (as a Temp) at a Government Center for the Bureau of Child Welfare. my ex wife's boyfriends girlfriend worked there too. She did not like me working there, and started a rumor that i was a convicted child molester. One day i was pulled into an office of my supervisor and she fired me, and told me what was said about me. i then told her that would be super easy to disprove, all she had to do was do a criminal background check on me and it would prove that i am not as the rumor says. She blatantly told me "Well your just a temp, and we just don't want to go through all that trouble, sorry" And that was that, fired because of a lie. How do i love her?

Well the Lord pretty much set me straight how. The Lord taught me what to think when it came to someone who is very difficult to Love.

1. Jesus Loves that person.
2. Jesus went to the cross for that person.
3. How you treat that person, is how you treat Jesus.
4. There is a reason that person is the way they are. Don't take it personally.
5. Feel Pity for that person instead.

So if someone is mean to me, or did something awful to me, and i have every right to hate that person, i think upon those above things. Jesus loves that person, should i hate someone that Jesus my Lord Loves? Jesus loved that person so much that He went to the cross so that person one day may become Saved. That person might have been abused as a kid, or has a spouse that is abusive. Maybe that person just lost someone they love, and are lashing out, Whatever that person did to me, it was not to me, but they did it for a reason that they are dealing with within their self. i should feel sorry for this person and desire to try to help this person, and pray for this person that whatever this person is dealing with that causes that person to act or do the things that person does, that Jesus will help her/him. After thinking all this, it is extremely difficult for me to remain mad or upset or angry against this person.

I agree with all you've said above and that we're to love everyone...although we're not really called to "like" them.
The one item I don't agree with is item no. 1
We cannot say that God loves someone that causes harm to others and that sins and is in debt to satan.

There is scripture for this:
Luke 13:27
Revelation 2:6

We should pray for those who do us harm and not seek vengeance.


What i say is sin and not sin is irrelevant. But according to Scriptures there is no sin done in the above examples you give. UNLESS that person actually takes the ring(s). satan is always going to be around to tempt each person with the temptations that they are weak against. The person who is A. in the above example does not steal, don't even think about it, therefore satan is not going to tempt that person to steal. satan is not going to waste his time and effort on a person if he does not think he can get them to do it. Person B. above is a Godly person, and it pleases God. Not because they were tempted to do something that they really wanted to do, but that they did not do it and stops thinking about doing it because it is against God. These put satan in his place. Person C. above is struggling. These are they that satan will work overtime to get them to fall, get them to choose to steal. By keeping the thought alive and not squelching it when it arises, you give place to it. NOT that it is sinful just because satan keeps tempting this and won't seem to shut up about it. It is the Act that is sinful, not the temptations.

However, Lusting is a different animal altogether and not like theft. Theft becomes a sin when you actually steal something, not the thinking about stealing it. But Lust on the other hand, it becomes sinful when you are viewing something that you know you should not view and continue to view it anyways, at that very moment, when you know you should look away, but choose to continue to lust, that it becomes sinful.

I believe lust to be a strong desire....of any type.
But the following agrees with you and I may have to change my way of thinking! (for those reading along who may have a doubt as to your statement....the following agrees with you)

In the New Testament, the word moves from referring primarily to idolatry to referring instead almost exclusively to sexual immorality. While the idea of idolatry is not completely absent, the primary intention is as a strong, inordinate desire for sexual relations. This sexual immorality, however, is not intended to represent actions alone since lust occurs first as a thought in the mind. The warning is to stop the lust before it moves into the realm of action. For instance, Jesus commands that a man is not to even look at a woman lustfully (i.e., with a desire to have sexual relations with her) because that is the same as committing the physical act of adultery ( Matt 5:27-30 ); both are sin.

source: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/lust/

A devil worshiper can end up with God. Judgement Day is when Jesus Returns to the Earth and the Book of Life is opened and if your name is written therein, then on that Day, you are SAVED. A devil worshiper Not Saved today, does not mean he is not Saved tomorrow. As long as a person draws breath, no matter what condition they are living in, they can accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord and change.

This is so important that Jesus, Our Lord and Savior, COMMANDED us to Love One Another. This is not something we should try to do, but we are COMMANDED to do it. We should NOT call Jesus "Lord" and NOT do the things that He COMMANDS us to do.

Agreed.


It's threatening because i live what they say is impossible to do.

Agreed.
Could you just comment as to what John said about our lying if we say we do not sin?


In order for a person to hear God, they must first hear Him without hearing Him. And not hear ONLY, but do what they hear. If a person can't obey that small voice that usually says "You should not be doing that, it is against God" then How will they hear God speak to them. If they will not hear and obey that small voice, they will not hear God. (However there are few exceptions to this)

Agreed.

satan will not tempt a person who does not steal to steal something. satan does not tempt a person to get drunk who does not drink alcohol. satan does not tempt a person to do drugs who never does any drugs. satan knows each one of us better than we know even our own selves. he knows what are desires are and what are weaknesses are, those are the things that satan uses against each person. You see it is satans main goal to keep us living in sin, it does not matter what sin that may be, as long as a person is living in it.


John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And what are His commandments?

1Jn 3:22-24 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him, because we keep His commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment, That we should 1) Believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ (Faith), and 2) Love One Another (Works), as He gave us commandment. And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and he in Him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us.


Agreed.


This generation does a Great Job doing the first part of His Commandment 1) Believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, but fail is the second part which is to 2) Love One Another.

Agreed.
Well, that was easy --- we agree on practically everything.
The only thing I can say is that I think we sin a lot more than we think we do. Maybe just in thought. You might want to comment on this. God is so pure.....to Him many of our actions or omission of actions must be a sin.

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[tdidymas]

Faith requires our “cooperative effort” of obedience to the word by which we receive faith.


Otherwise the faith that we have remains dormant, or dead as James says, and incomplete.


Some see this effort of obedience as “legalistic”.



How do you see it?




JLB

It depends on where your faith is directed. Behavioral obedience falls short, if the mind is not actively trusting God to be the motivator. It has to do with cause and effect. For example:

If the cause or motivation of my behavioral obedience is the fact of God's love toward me and in me, then I am obeying in faith. I obey God because I am already righteous in Christ. The moment I forget this I begin to stumble.

On the other hand, if I am trying to obtain a righteous or sanctified state by means of my behavioral obedience, then I have not begun to obey in faith.

The idea is the spirit motivating the mind, thoughts and behavior, as opposed to behavior making a person sanctified. Such a lifestyle is attained by right doctrine and adherence to it by faith. IOW, Jesus is the center of my life, not my behavior.

If you read James carefully, you should see that the works he is talking about is an outflow of faith. He is by no means teaching perfectionism.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

Here's the difference. When I have REALLY taught (kids) it was not MY doctrine but those of the church wherein I was doing the teaching. Of course you have to believe what you're saying or it's difficult to speak the words (not for everyone BTW,,,some find it easy to speak what they do not believe).

While on here, I put forth what I've learned to be true from different sources. Someone could disagree, but it's not so much me they're disagreeing with, but those who have created the theology.

Teaching is a big responsibility for which we'll answer to God. James 3:1
However, I DO understand your point...and, who knows, maybe we are teaching....

You're trying to convince me of something, therefore, you're teaching.

How do the above verses show that we do not need to cooperate with God for our sanctification?

I'm not trying to show there is no cooperation. I'm trying to show that cooperation is an outflow of faith. The kind of faith I'm talking about is the belief that God is the one doing the work.

1 Peter 1:2
The Holy Spirit does a sanctifying work in us so that we could OBEY Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood.

Obedience as an outflow of the work of God in us.

So...what is the truth?
What does it mean to be sanctified?

1. The gospel of the grace of God, in which grace flows from God to us.
2. To become more Christlike, which is God's work, not ours. Again, obedience is an outflow of God's work.

Philippians 2:13
God works within us to bring about in us what gives Him pleasure --- our obedience to Him. See verse 12 that speaks of our obedience to Him.

Rom. 1 & 4, Gal. 3, and Heb. 11 say that faith is that obedience that pleases God.

This is how a relationship works:
God desires our obedience
We obey and He loves us and saves us.
This is the obedience of out faith in Him.

I see you saying "out of faith" - so perhaps you agree with me in this matter?

But if we don't cooperate in replying to His love....
How does that show our faith?
Yes. James said faith without works is dead....non-existent.

I never said we shouldn't cooperate. I merely said that most of the conversations I have read and heard using that word is a legalistic context.

Dead faith is not non-existent, it's just in the wrong thing, since everyone has faith in something. We are being sanctified if our faith is purified. IOW, more of our faith is in God and less in ourselves and circumstances.

So where do YOU learn?
And who do YOU listen to?

I no longer swallow what people say any more. Everything I hear and read I evaluate according to what scripture says. Of course there must be correct interpretation. Every false thing believed is a hindrance to sanctification.
TD

 

[GodsGrace]

You're trying to convince me of something, therefore, you're teaching.
When one teaches, the other must be willing to learn.
Here we all have our beliefs established...but I have learned from here too.
I do have threads where I AM teaching...but they're very obvious.
But....nuff said.

I'm not trying to show there is no cooperation. I'm trying to show that cooperation is an outflow of faith. The kind of faith I'm talking about is the belief that God is the one doing the work.

Of course cooperation is an outflow of faith...that goes without saying, no? Atheist surely don't care about pleasing God.

The problem I have with what you've said is that God is not doing the work in us. I hear this all the time and I don't know where that idea has come from. Jesus said He was going to leave and that it would be better that way so that the Holy Spirit could come...to convict...to help us to truth...to be our paraclete - in general.

The Holy Spirit HELPS US to know what is right and wrong in God's eyes,,,to see that we MIGHT sin if we proceed...but He does NOT stop us. We still have our free will.

And...if we say that God is the one doing the work...then when we DO sin, was it God doing that work too?

Obedience as an outflow of the work of God in us.

1. The gospel of the grace of God, in which grace flows from God to us.
2. To become more Christlike, which is God's work, not ours. Again, obedience is an outflow of God's work.

Again,,,to become more Christlike is God's work not ours.
When God tells me to do something to make me be more like Christ....and I listen to Him....did He MAKE ME listen, or did I listen of my own free will?

It is HIM telling me something....
and ME obeying.
The obedience of faith.
The cooperation which is sanctifying.

Rom. 1 & 4, Gal. 3, and Heb. 11 say that faith is that obedience that pleases God.

I see you saying "out of faith" - so perhaps you agree with me in this matter?

Yes. Our faith in God is what makes us want to obey him.

I never said we shouldn't cooperate. I merely said that most of the conversations I have read and heard using that word is a legalistic context.
OK. You're a reasonable person that I can actually talk to. I know you never said we shouldn't cooperate.

Tell me what a legalist is.
I'm told I'm a legalist because I state that we must obey God.

Dead faith is not non-existent, it's just in the wrong thing, since everyone has faith in something. We are being sanctified if our faith is purified. IOW, more of our faith is in God and less in ourselves and circumstances.

Here I cannot agree.
James clearly says that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
Dead means non-existent. Of no value.
What would you say is what those persons have faith in?
I mean, James is speaking of faith in God or Jesus.
I think you need a verse here.

I no longer swallow what people say any more. Everything I hear and read I evaluate according to what scripture says. Of course there must be correct interpretation. Every false thing believed is a hindrance to sanctification.
TD

Agreed. So why don't we agree???!

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[tdidymas]

What does it matter what i, discipledave, teaches or believes? What matters is if what i say is contrary to Scriptures, that is what is important. You said you read the link, tell me what on those links did you read that is CONTRARY to Scriptures? Maybe contrary to what you personally believe, but can you show anything, anything at all that is contrary to Scriptures? You say that it is my teaching, and i say it is not my teaching, but is what the Word of God teaches.

Quoting the Bible and declaring what you think it means is not necessarily teaching what the Bible teaches.
Here is an example: in your "Keep on Sinning?" article, you claim:

Another verse they frequently use to try to back up their false belief is:

• I John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If a person says in this generation they do not knowingly and willingly commit sins against Jesus Christ, this verse above is the one they use to try to prove that person a liar. But if you read the verse what it clearly says, it is talking about those people who think they HAVE never sinned, it is not talking about those who know they HAVE committed many sins prior to how they live now, they do error not understanding the Scriptures.

You wrote "it is talking about those people who think they HAVE never sinned"
Yet, he wrote in v. 10 "if we say we have not sinned..." - so why would he be repeating himself? John is actually speaking of 2 different scenarios. The first in :8 is the scenario of a self-righteous person who claims he has no sin in the present. The 2nd in :10 is the scenario of a self-righteous person who claims he has never sinned.
Therefore, your interpretation of :8 cannot be true.

You also claimed in the other article that your article was the word of God (I suppose because you quoted some scripture in it). I see such a statement as arrogant, since it is putting your interpretation of scripture equal with scripture in authority. I've seen people do that very thing, who end up refusing to listen to reason. Such people are unable to say "I could be wrong about my interpretation."

Tell me, the Crippled man that was in that condition for 38 YEARS, was Healed by Jesus in John Chapter 5, says to the man "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee. " Tell me, did Jesus really mean what He told that man, or was He just kidding? i mean if it is not possible to cease from sin, as this generation teaches, then why would Jesus say what he said to the man? Another question for you. After hearing Jesus say that to him, do you think after being cripple for THIRTY EIGHT YEARS, that he would commit another sin, and be worse than he was before? All of Scriptures teaches AGAINST sinning.

All we know is what Jesus said to the man. We don't know the man's history or how he got that way. Therefore we don't know what sin Jesus was talking about.

But it is bad hermeneutic to formulate doctrine from a historical narrative. Such narrative might be supportive of doctrine taught in doctrinal passages, or they might not be. Therefore, this story cannot be used to establish a doctrine of perfectionism.

i have sinned. i have sinned plenty, i have many sins, i have sinned more than you three fold probably, i have done many sinful things. What does that have to do with, that i no longer continue to sin? Just because i say i no longer continue to sin, does not in the slightest say that i have no sin.

My point is that John is talking about direction of life and purpose, not in perfectionism. Hopefully we don't commit gross sins like sexual immorality, malice, carousings, and such. But there is always room for improvement. As we see ourselves falling short in trials and tribulations, this is how I read 1 Jn. 1:8. We cannot say "I am now sinless." We must acknowledge that we continue to need the Savior to deliver us from our evil selves.

Word of God says this: 1Jn_1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
word of this generation reads that same verse to say: if we say we no longer sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Do you see how this generation changed the verse to fit into their own false beliefs?

Perhaps you're troubled by mere semantics. Can you agree with my statement above?

To purify something is to make it PURE correct. You testify that Paul just instructed Christians to purify themselves of defilements of the Flesh AND Spirit, both. If then someone knowingly and willingly commits sin, that is to say they knowingly and willinlgy obey the enemy of Jesus and obey satan's temptation to do that which is evil, How have they DONE what Paul instructed them to do? To purify themself, to make Pure, not to make filthy, not to return to the vomit, not to return to the mire.

Purifying oneself is an ongoing and continuous lifestyle, just as is repentance, just as is faith. Purification is not somewhere we park and declare ourselves to be sinless. We are always in need of the Savior's purification, and it starts with continuous faith in His ability to deliver.

Amen, that is why i said in a previous post to take one sin and get it out of your life, then take another and then work on that one.

Sometimes I found out that the sin I wanted to work on was not the one God was working on. I learned to trust His guidance.

Scriptures please? Or is that just something you personally believe?

It is how I read the whole NT, and specifically 1 Jn. 1:8 and 2 Pet. 1:3-11.

Amen, and that is True, we are in a race, and not have yet won that race. Spiritual growth is real, going from one Spiritual level to another, to another, and yet to another. Any kind of knowingly sinning prevents farther Spiritual growth. This is Spiritual lull. Where you feel "Blahhhh" Not moving ahead, not moving behind, Lost, not knowing what direction God wants you to go, or what He wants you to do.

If someone in a race thinks they will not win that race, will in all likelihood not finish that race. If someone thinks they are ugly, will not volunteer for a beauty pagent.
You testify above that Christ delivers from sin, but not all of them right? If He delivered you from all your sins, then how would you not be perfect? But because you don't believe it is possible to be delivered of all your sins, how will you attain that? If you thought i was telling you the TRUTH, which i am, because Rev 21:8 is clear, ALL LIARS shall be cast into Fire and Brimstone, then you would have to start believing it is possible. So then whatever sin that you engage in regularly Christ can deliver you from that, yes? Then why hasn't he delivered you of it? Are you willing to let it go?

The way I read the NT is that I should be concerned with how God is pulling me, and not concerned with pushing myself in a direction I think I ought to go. I used to be a perfectionist, and learned to lay that burden down at the cross of Christ. I now am no longer concerned with perfection, as I have left that burden in the hands of God. So then, perfectionism is what I have let go of.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

i'm sorry that you feel that i did not answer you, tell me what question have you asked me, that i did not answer?



i do not know who those men are, nor what they taught, i only know what Scriptures teach. If you read the links and you disagree with something therein, then reveal the Scriptures that is contrary to what is in those links. If i am teaching something that is contrary to Scriptures, should you not do the Godly thing and reveal to me the errors? So show me Scriptures that contradict what is in those links, so that i may correct those errors if in Truth there be errors in those links. Thanks.



Confronting bad doctrine is a Godly thing to do. Why do you think i confront the false doctrine that we cannot cease from sinning, and i use Scriptures to confront that bad doctrine. Likewise if you believe i am teaching bad doctrine, where are the Scriptures that contradict what i am teaching? Or is it just your opinion that contradicts what i teach? Either way, reveal something i taught that you disagree with. Else how are we going to discuss those issues which you think is bad doctrine?



Amen, and amen. The problem however is you are not revealing anything that is contrary to the teaching of Scriptures. You are not being silent and that is a good thing, but you are also not presenting evidence about what you are accusing. You say i teach bad doctrine, you say that it is contrary to Scriptures, yet you have not once showed anything that i have said or is in the links, that is actually contrary to any Scriptures. We are most certainly to confront any doctrine, belief, or ideal that is contrary to Scriptures, but if you are going to accuse a Brother or Sister of doing such, then reveal what they actually said, that is contrary to Scriptures, instead of merely accusing them of bad doctrine. i can accuse you as being a thief. But if i do not tell you what it was that i think you stole, how can you defend against an accusation without any evidence of what is being accused against you?



i don't feel like you have disrespected me at all Brother. But i will feel that way if you accuse me of bad doctrine, or teaching contrary to Scriptures, but then do not reveal to anyone what that doctrine is, or what teaching is contrary to Scriptures. Tell us therefore, what have i said here, or in the links that you feel is bad doctrine or contrary to Scriptures?

Thanks. Love you Brother.

I hear you, and can see that your general tone is humble. I addressed most of this in earlier posts. Please don't be offended by my responses to the other poster, I was just trying to answer her questions as best I could.

So, the "bad doctrine" that I see you teaching is three things:
1. Confusing your interpretation of scripture with the scripture itself - I see you doing this in the article "Sin No More." Specifically this statement:

what this Article teaches IS NOT MY OPINION but is what the Words of God teach

The truth is, the article really is your opinion, based on your interpretation of scripture that you filter through your personal bias. We all have that, and do the same thing. But some of us aren't so arrogant as to claim that it's not our opinion. I even hear my pastor doing that, even though I highly respect him. We can quote scripture and say what we believe it means. We can even properly exegete scripture and firmly believe we know what it means based on the exegesis. I'm saying it is inappropriate to claim that our interpretation of scripture is on the same level as the words of scripture, especially on controversial subjects.

We have to face the fact that we all tend to impose ideas on the text of scripture that was not meant in the context of it. I have been corrected many times concerning that, and perfectionism is one of those ideas.

2. Which leads to the 2nd idea I believe is a bad one: perfectionism. Many years ago, I was of that persuasion. I thought that if I could just "believe" that I could be sinless, then my efforts toward that goal would result in perfection. I was wrong. I am glad that I finally listened to correction - not just believing what someone told me, but continuing to search the scripture, with memorization, to discover what it was really saying. I found out that it wasn't teaching perfectionism, but rather teaching a path, a journey, toward Christlikeness, which was a way of faith. I realize this is a deep idea that could require a lot of scripture exegesis, but let me leave it with one verse: Phil. 2:13 "for God is at work in you, to will and do His good pleasure."

3. You seem to be vehemently against the "OSAS" doctrine. I don't know your experience with that is, but it appears to me that you really don't know what it is about, like many others. That doctrine is controversial because it is poorly understood and much misused. But then the gospel itself is poorly understood and much misused. If the gospel had not been poorly understood and much misused in the 1st Century, we would not have much of the NT today (I mean the epistles).

I could quote a bunch of scripture in support of the idea, but let me just give some reasoning, as a result of my experience and study of the scripture. If I don't believe I am secure, then my faith in Christ's ability to save me completely is lacking. It is the very thing that prevents me from entering sabbath rest wherein I cease from my labor.
Heb 4:10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from their works, just as God did from his.
This means ceasing from striving to be perfect, IMO. It's a faith that Christ's work is enough to save me completely, both justified and sanctified. It means I believe God is doing the work necessary to complete my journey to glorification. If I actually see it happening (albeit sometimes slower than I would like), why should I shun such an experience? Why should I not praise the Lord I worship to say that He is doing all the work necessary to save me and ready me for glorification?

I see my faith that I am secure in Christ as a huge part of my faith journey. I firmly believe in the OSAS idea because I believe the Bible teaches it, and it has helped me to experience the sabbath rest that the writer of Hebrews is talking about. It's just too bad that the idea is much misunderstood and misused. But then, the gospel of grace is also much misunderstood and much misused.

Martyn Lloyd-Jones, someone I highly respect, once said "if we aren’t accused of antinomianism, we haven’t preached the gospel properly." Since the apostle Paul was accused of it, I think of myself in good company.
TD

 

[JLB]

It depends on where your faith is directed. Behavioral obedience falls short, if the mind is not actively trusting God to be the motivator. It has to do with cause and effect. For example:

If the cause or motivation of my behavioral obedience is the fact of God's love toward me and in me, then I am obeying in faith. I obey God because I am already righteous in Christ. The moment I forget this I begin to stumble.

You are I are not talking about the same thing.


I’m referring to the principle of faith.


Faith is what we receive from God, when He speaks to us.


Example:

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7


Noah hears God tell him to build an Ark.

Noah now has faith, as well as grace to do this monumental task, which I ncludes rounding up all the animals and getting them in the Ark and storing enough food for them and his family.


However, Noah must obey God by actually putting forth the effort to complete this task, in order to be declared righteous; The righteousness of faith.



JLB

 

[tdidymas]

When one teaches, the other must be willing to learn.

Teaching is one thing, and learning is another. What you assert, you are teaching, regardless of whether or not another is willing to learn.

I hope we don't get tangled up in semantics.

Of course cooperation is an outflow of faith...that goes without saying, no?

No, it doesn't go without saying. In my observation and experience, many Christians are confused because they are taught the do's and don'ts without the grace that comes only from God. They lack the faith in God's power to deliver them because they are not taught to direct their faith to God alone. They keep burdening themselves with perfectionism and many of them stumble (and some even forsake the faith) because they don't know how to appropriate the power of God by faith. Ultimately, they fail to enter sabbath rest - Heb. 4:10.

The problem I have with what you've said is that God is not doing the work in us. I hear this all the time and I don't know where that idea has come from.

Then what do you do with Phil 4:13 "for God is at work in us, to will and to work for His good pleasure"?

And...if we say that God is the one doing the work...then when we DO sin, was it God doing that work too?

This is a common confusion. God works by spiritual influence. It is not determinism, so don't misunderstand what I'm saying. If we partake of divine nature, then we are relying on God to work His works in us - John 3:21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

This cannot be done without the right kind of faith, which requires understanding of the gospel. Obviously, where we lack in that faith, we will fail, IOW commit sin. That would be because we weren't "cooperating" with God by faith in His guidance/influence.

Again,,,to become more Christlike is God's work not ours.
When God tells me to do something to make me be more like Christ....and I listen to Him....did He MAKE ME listen, or did I listen of my own free will?

You don't think the almighty God can't make you listen? That is what Holy Spirit conviction is. The root part of the term conviction means conquering. It literally means "with conquering" - con-vict. If the voice of God is like the thunder, then the Spirit is a very powerful influence to make us fear God.

But if I fear God with no hope in His love, then I will be afraid of Him and will run away. But if I have hope in God's love through Christ, then I will run toward Him.
Faith in Christ makes the difference. It was the difference between Cain and Abel.

Tell me what a legalist is.
I'm told I'm a legalist because I state that we must obey God.

A legalist is someone who teaches the law of God but fails to teach the gospel that empowers the believer (my def). Here is the dictionary def:
strict adherence, or the principle of strict adherence, to law or prescription, especially to the letter rather than the spirit.
Theology:

1. the doctrine that salvation is gained through good works.
2. the judging of conduct in terms of adherence to precise laws.

Here I cannot agree.
James clearly says that FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
Dead means non-existent. Of no value.
What would you say is what those persons have faith in?
I mean, James is speaking of faith in God or Jesus.
I think you need a verse here.

Actually, James doesn't say that it is non-existent, and that's not a Biblical definition of the term "dead". For example "dead in transgressions and sins" doesn't mean non-existent. It means not connected to the source of eternal life, to be exact. When James says "faith without works is dead," he is talking about:

1. The kind of faith a person has that doesn't result in eternal life (salvation)
2. The kind of faith that results in failing to adhere to Christ's commands

After all, did he not say "can that faith save him" (referring to someone having faith without works)? He is acknowledging that such a person with a claim to faith in Christ actually does have a faith he claims, therefore it is not non-existent. The faith he is talking about "without works" is not a kind of faith that "saves." This is why we use the term "saving faith" to specify the kind of faith we should be practicing as a Christian. A person who claims to have faith in Christ, but doesn't do what He commanded is a person who only has a theory, and has no way of knowing where he will end up.

In addition, the "works" that James is talking about is a certain kind of works. Obviously, everyone does some kind of works. So, when James says "works" in this case, he is speaking specifically of the kind of works that Jesus taught us to do, namely to love our neighbor in the same way that God does, unconditionally (Mat. 5:44-45). In times of trial and tribulation, this cannot be done without the practice of the saving kind of faith in Christ.

We have to understand where James is coming from, and who he is talking to in this part of his epistle. In the 1st Century, some Gnostics crept into some of the churches, and part of their belief system was purely theoretical - that is, they claimed they could be saved by a kind of faith without Christian works. So for them, loving their neighbor was an option that they could do or not do according to their convenience. The bottom line is, their faith fell short of the gospel message, and that's what James Ch. 2 is about. Their faith wasn't of the kind that measured up to the teaching of Christ and the apostles.
TD

 

[tdidymas]

You are I are not talking about the same thing.


I’m referring to the principle of faith.


Faith is what we receive from God, when He speaks to us.


Example:

By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7


Noah hears God tell him to build an Ark.

Noah now has faith, as well as grace to do this monumental task, which I ncludes rounding up all the animals and getting them in the Ark and storing enough food for them and his family.


However, Noah must obey God by actually putting forth the effort to complete this task, in order to be declared righteous; The righteousness of faith.



JLB

Not sure if this is semantics. The actions of Noah proved his faith. After Noah heard God and believed His promise, he did not have an option to obey or not. If he didn't obey, then that's proof he didn't believe. He did obey, which proved he did believe.

So then, I contend that Noah's righteous action was a result of God's work. We both agree that faith is the gift of God. Great! It follows then, that if the faith received is genuine, then we will act on it, otherwise it wasn't the Biblical kind of faith.

Case in point: Cain heard God speak, but didn't believe, therefore didn't obey. Abel believed God, therefore he was commended. We can see this clearly in Heb. 11.
TD