Is it time to turn away from the organized church?

[Christ_empowered]

that's what I don't like about this mega-church my dad pops in at. Dude man has thousands of congregants and he's pretty clear...i will not do your funeral or your wedding, on and on it goes. What's the point?

oh, and...he's also big on that 10%. thankfully, my dad's not --that-- into the place, lol.

 

[Corn Pop]

I believe people go to church in good faith and I believe in mega churches there are saved people, I just feel sorry for the people who go there seeking truth, all they want is truth, all there trying to seek is the path, and they get fed a whole lot of garbage mixed with truth.

 

[JLB]

Thursday night I was watching a film about faith on netflix and it got me thinking that it's time to take the gospel to the unchurched pagans in the streets just as it was time for Paul to take the gospel to the gentiles when the religious community of their day vehemently opposed his message.:

"when the (church) saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by (insert gospel worker name here), and were blaspheming. 46 (those gospel workers) spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of (the truth), behold, we are turning to the (unchurched pagans)." (Acts 13:45-46 NASB parenthesis mine of course to make my point)

What do you think?

When they get saved, which Church would you encourage them to attend?

90% of the street people were/are Christians that have been rejected by the "organised Church", because the "organised Church" doesn't want broke street people, but middle class "tithers".

You find a Church that is equipped and willing to receive street people, then you have found your place to work and teach.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

No, that whole sentence is me talking. Just so you know, I've been mostly un-churched for many of the past twenty years. So I thoroughly understand what causes the genuine God loving believer to not go to church.

I use pagans in a very general sense of those who are in the world and playing and living out it's game in whatever form that takes in their lives--greed, witchcraft, promiscuity, etc.

But surely the other equally exciting take on all this is how this opens up the door for church people to get a glimpse of what they aren't. People who genuinely love, and long for God, but who are unknowingly trapped behind the gates of the cold, dead, lifeless, powerless walls of the church they attend can learn by actual experience and witness of the power of God how to be the effective, happy, satisfied, overflowing servants and friends of God in his service that they want to be and should be.

Jethro,
I'm sorry, I could be so dense.
HOW exactly does one actually witness of the power of God?

I have to say that I agree with JohnDB on this.
I go to a market at times where there's a man who actually preaches on the street. People think he's a bit batty.
A big denomination church gives out tracts once a year at a feast. The people giving out the tracts are also available to answer questions. There's not too much response to this. Ditto for a small Assembly of God church nearby - about 10 members.


I witness to family members that might even be saved, only God knows for sure, and most times they don't even understand what I'm talking about. The general public is certainly not going to listen.

But, I repeat, I don't really understand what it is you're proposing. JohnDB said every church started this way - I agree with that.

Cygnus, in post no. 23, says churches are working in society with food pantries and the such. What good does it do?
I used to volunteer with a local church that distributed clothing to the poor. Did they ever associate any of it with God? No. Maybe they were grateful to the church, maybe not even that.

Also, in your post 19 you say:
John DB says:↑
Grass root efforts?

Exactly how do you think most established churches started?

Jethro Bodine says:
The difference is what truths the grass roots movement is based on.

Which truths are you speaking of? Which would be YOUR truths?

And, I repeat my first question:
HOW exactly does one actually witness of the power of God?
(to a man on the street).

Wondering

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When they get saved, which Church would you encourage them to attend?

A church that believes in a demonstration of power....the same thing that got them into the church. And a church that meets in a more New Testament style of open fellowship.

90% of the street people were/are Christians that have been rejected by the "organised Church", because the "organised Church" doesn't want broke street people, but middle class "tithers".

The church is not a place for street people. It's a place for believers. I don't think any church should throw it's doors open to pagans. We have enough falseness in the church as it is. Pagans can be guests but they can not belong to the church. Churches should make it understood in some way that this is not a place for pagans to call home in their unsaved condition. For them it's a place to inquire about God. All their unsaved thoughts and ideas and ways have to stay out of the church so as not to pollute the church.

...the "organised Church" doesn't want broke street people, but middle class "tithers".

I don't think they think this consciously. But I would say few if any churches in the United States are operating on the principle of drawing people to God and holding regular meetings of the saints composed of people who are too poor to support the church, even though the Bible makes it clear it is the poor people of the world that God has chosen to be rich in faith (James 2:5 NASB).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro,
I'm sorry, I could be so dense.
HOW exactly does one actually witness of the power of God?

Signs, wonders, and miracles.
"12The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles." (2 Corinthians 12:12 NASB)

(I can hear the gasps all ready, lol )

"when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. 3I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, 4and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God." (1 Corinthians 2:1-5 NASB)

The world has heard enough talk. The church itself has so maligned the word of God with it's abundance of differing thoughts about it so as to cast severe doubt about it in the minds of unbelievers. To reach people like this you have to show them that "the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power." (1 Corinthians 2:1-5 NASB). Jesus and his early disciples testified to the world through signs and wonders, so should we.

Oh, I know, the 'religious' church is vehemently opposed to this. Just as the 'religious' people of Jesus' day were opposed to it, even calling it of the devil.

I have to say that I agree with JohnDB on this.
I go to a market at times where there's a man who actually preaches on the street. People think he's a bit batty.

Yep. I know all about those who do that. In the Netflix documentary "Holy Ghost", at about 9 min. 30 secs in, they talk to a dear couple who have been preaching the gospel on the street for 30 years who don't believe in the supernatural gifts of the Spirit. They said they've lead maybe five people to the Lord in that 30 years. (and it's 'Holy Ghost', not 'Holy Spirit', Obadiah).

Like I say, the world has had enough talk. Time for a demonstration of power, not just words.

A big denomination church gives out tracts once a year at a feast. The people giving out the tracts are also available to answer questions. There's not too much response to this. Ditto for a small Assembly of God church nearby - about 10 members.

I understand perfectly. Time for some personal interaction with power to accompany the tracts and the open ended invitations to talk about them.

I witness to family members that might even be saved, only God knows for sure, and most times they don't even understand what I'm talking about. The general public is certainly not going to listen.

I agree completely. Time for a demonstration of power.....God's love for them manifest in something tangible and real for them that they can't deny.

But, I repeat, I don't really understand what it is you're proposing. JohnDB said every church started this way - I agree with that.

Not really. Yes, most churches start with a handful of people. But they are usually already friends and family and acquainted with each other, and who certainly don't need signs and wonders to believe because they believe and are saved already. I'm not knocking that at all. I'm just saying there is another way. A way that does not rely on that.

Cygnus, in post no. 23, says churches are working in society with food pantries and the such. What good does it do?

Well, it helps poor people to be able to use their money for the important things in life....drugs, cable TV, tattoos, cigarettes, and beer. Am I right? (No, not looking for a discussion about tatts, lol. Just pointing out the 'necessities' of life for 'poor' people in America ). So you can gather I'm not big on food pantries and other truly sincere and loving efforts to share the love of God with people in the hope they'll come to him in salvation, but which prove to really be very, very ineffective to that end.

I used to volunteer with a local church that distributed clothing to the poor. Did they ever associate any of it with God? No. Maybe they were grateful to the church, maybe not even that.

Like I say, it gives them the opportunity to use their money on the truly important and necessary things of life .
I'm being funny, but I think the real use for these kinds of things--food pantries, clothing distributions--is they help kids who are at the mercy of their unbelieving parents to care for them but who don't because they're pill heads, or drunks, or cable addicts. And who can argue with the value of helping those kids whose parents don't?

(Quoting JohnDB)
Grass root efforts?

Exactly how do you think most established churches started?

How, you ask? A group of saved friends, family, and acquaintances grow big enough and have enough money to establish themselves in a building. I'm not knocking it. Not for a second. I'm just saying there's this Biblical element of adding people to the kingdom and to a church in a more non-traditional, but powerful and effective way, that potentially could be more effective and far reaching and long term.

The difference is what truths the grass roots movement is based on.

Which truths are you speaking of? Which would be YOUR truths?

I'm talking about the mission and goal that causes a church to be formed. If it's just to be another church in the xyz denomination, and/or to have traditional pastor/congregation (non)relationships and meetings, you've got an uphill battle on your hands.

And, I repeat my first question:
HOW exactly does one actually witness of the power of God?
(to a man on the street).

I know that when threads get over two pages it's hard to glean everything that's been said, but I addressed this briefly here:

What if instead of telling people what Jesus did for you alone, you lay hands on them as you pray for them according to their need and Jesus does for them what he has done for you, ministering the knowledge of God in a demonstration of power instead of just words.

And that's just one way. Prophetic words, anointed music (where you can actually hear the words) that solicits the presence of God....anything that demonstrates the love of God through power. God has distributed gifts to his people to do that.

 

[Obadiah]

I'm watching the Furious Love video now... It's nothing that shocking or unusual to me as I've personally been involved in some similar things. I do know and have not only seen, but even been personally involved in some similar incidents as some of what's in this video regarding things like the actual real healing, the demon possessions, and such.

Unlike a lot of videos I've seen along these lines, this one rings of truth. I noticed right away that there is no screaming by street preachers acting like they themselves could be demon possessed. There is no hate filled condemnation screamed at the poor people who are present in the streets. It doesn't show any calculated massive shows being put on that are professionally choreographed to produce a false euphoria and make people overly pliable to the power of suggestion by well trained and practiced orators. No, I haven't seen any of that so far.

What I see is what I believe to be the true power of God, manifesting itself as Jesus demonstrated it when He walked the earth in His physical body; a peace that passes all understanding combined with a power that is even strong enough that an ordinary Christian, speaking in an ordinary way (not screaming and acting like he has mental problems!) can cause a practicing witch to remove his head cover because he saw the very real presence of the Spirit of God and was just that humbled and moved by it.

I've experienced some of this first hand. I don't know how many other Christians have. I would hope many have, but I do know that in the last church where I was a member, I'm not so sure any of them ever had. That needs to change. But when I have challenged some of them to join me in witnessing in this way to the prostitutes and drug addicts of the upper east side of Vancouver where I used to go a lot, not a single one would take me up on it. One girl, just one teenage girl said she would go, but when it came right down to going, she also failed to do it.

 

[JLB]

A church that believes in a demonstration of power....the same thing that got them into the church. And a church that meets in a more New Testament style of open fellowship.

Their are some who are trying that, with Home Churches and some smaller Churches.

What's lacking is strong leadership, and the teaching and power of the Holy Spirit.

The church is not a place for street people. It's a place for believers. I don't think any church should throw it's doors open to pagans. We have enough falseness in the church as it is. Pagans can be guests but they can not belong to the church. Churches should make it understood in some way that this is not a place for pagans to call home in their unsaved condition. For them it's a place to inquire about God. All their unsaved thoughts and ideas and ways have to stay out of the church so as not to pollute the church.

it got me thinking that it's time to take the gospel to the unchurched pagans in the streets

The context in which I'm speaking is about getting people saved, who are on the street, and having a place for them to grow in the Lord and be built with gold, silver and precious things.

Here's my answer again, as I think you have misunderstood what I'm saying. [For the record, I'm all for what you are saying.]

When they get saved, which Church would you encourage them to attend?

90% of the street people were/are Christians that have been rejected by the "organised Church", because the "organised Church" doesn't want broke street people, but middle class "tithers".

You find a Church that is equipped and willing to receive street people, then you have found your place to work and teach.

Equipped meaning: They have the mature leadership with the evidence of power and love, who are led by the Spirit and teaching biblical doctrine. A congregation that is active and willing to get their hands "dirty" with the helping of this work.

Willing meaning: They are walking with the Lord, and their motive is not building buildings, but building people into a holy Temple that the Lord is pleased to fill with His glory.



JLB

 

[ezra]

Thursday night I was watching a film about faith on netflix and it got me thinking that it's time to take the gospel to the unchurched pagans in the streets just as it was time for Paul to take the gospel to the gentiles when the religious community of their day vehemently opposed his message.:

"when the (church) saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by (insert gospel worker name here), and were blaspheming. 46 (those gospel workers) spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of (the truth), behold, we are turning to the (unchurched pagans)." (Acts 13:45-46 NASB parenthesis mine of course to make my point)

What do you think?

what doe the great commission say? just remember at one time you was one of them unchurched pagans in the streets j

 

[ezra]

Paul finally got so fed up he turned to those who would listen--and listen because they were pure in that they had no preconceived doctrines to blind them from the truth.

not sure as the word fed up is appropriate paul was a chosen vessel by God a apostle to the gentiles .it was in God plan to bring us pagans in

 

[smaller]

I think of church as something to be in but not of.

Am I making sense?
I go, am involved, volunteer and meet, greet and get involved in friends lives. But since there are things I vehemently disagree with about them...there is a separation. And in that stance I have a family that are the only ones with me.

It's unfortunate that people "in church" can't be truthful with one another on these subjects and must instead bury their truthful thoughts.

I can't live that way myself.

 

[smaller]

For the most part when I encounter "church people" they are very much cliche's to me.

RCC? Oh, Ok, you go in this box.
Charismatic? Oh, Ok, you go in this box.
Lutheran? Oh, Ok, you go in this box.

and so forth.

I found out long ago I don't like boxes very much because I don't fit any of them nor do I care for the boxes nor will I be placed in a box of some other person's making that was only made for them. I was not made for that kind of separation.

Theology isn't that simple nor is living a christian life that simple.

 

[JohnDB]

It's unfortunate that people "in church" can't be truthful with one another on these subjects and must instead bury their truthful thoughts.

I can't live that way myself.

I'm truthful and transparent.
They know my views...they don't disagree (my friends at least)
But they also know that I am there for them. I'm not there to change the place. I'm there for fellowship with Christians.
We have more in common than the outside world.

 

[smaller]

I'm truthful and transparent.
They know my views...they don't disagree (my friends at least)
But they also know that I am there for them. I'm not there to change the place. I'm there for fellowship with Christians.
We have more in common than the outside world.

Most churches don't accept disagreements. Some particularly so.

 

[JohnDB]

Most churches don't accept disagreements. Some particularly so.

Baptists have a wide pail of orthodoxies ...one of the widest without going heretical. (We even allow the Calvinists in)....so my beliefs are on the rim of that pail. But I simply want their friendship...and sometimes assistance in my mission work. Sometimes I want to assist them in theirs.

Kinda what's the object of the exercise.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

not sure as the word fed up is appropriate paul was a chosen vessel by God a apostle to the gentiles .it was in God plan to bring us pagans in

Surely it was God's plan all along, and Paul knew that, but I definitely sense his frustration with the Jews:

"when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6 But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.” (Acts 18:5-6 NASB)

The same frustration I feel with the present church who continually twist, tear down, or ignore scripture to cater to some selfish agenda. The unchurched haven't been exposed to all these various factions of scriptural twisting and manipulating for them to be defensive against the actual truth of God and the scriptures.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Baptists have a wide pail of orthodoxies ...one of the widest without going heretical. (We even allow the Calvinists in)....so my beliefs are on the rim of that pail. But I simply want their friendship...and sometimes assistance in my mission work. Sometimes I want to assist them in theirs.

Kinda what's the object of the exercise.

So you're settling for what you can get. Well, I guess we all have been doing that. I've tried to accept that's just the way it's gotta be but something keeps stirring me inside to not just accept that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

For the record, I'm all for what you are saying.

I gotcha'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Unlike a lot of videos I've seen along these lines, this one rings of truth.

Yes, that's what I noticed to. There were things that sent the caution flags up, but I could sense the validity of what they were talking about.

Glad you liked it. I have to run right now. We'll talk about it more later.

 

[Runner]

It seems to me that the core problem is less with “the organized churches” than with “the Christianity.” It would send a rather strange message to say, “We’re taking our religion to the streets because it hasn’t worked very well in the churches.”

At least in America, the churches always mirror the secular society around them. Long before the present time, we have had pretty much the same situation Kierkegaard was complaining about in the Denmark of his day and Tolstoy was complaining about in the Russia of his – a cheap, superficial “Christianity” that really isn’t Christianity at all, but rather just a branch of the secular society that conforms and blends in as nicely as any other branch.

Since the secular society has pretty much reached the Last Days stage that 2 Timothy 3:1-5 describes, I see no reason to be optimistic “Christianity” will likewise not continue “having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.”

I’ve often said that if I were advising atheists, I think the single strongest argument against Christianity would be: “You say that only you have the transforming power of the Holy Spirit. Why is there not more evidence of this – in your individual lives, in your churches and denominations, in your religion as a whole?”

Is there truly anything that distinguishes “Christians” from Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists and New Agers except in their own self-congratulatory minds? Where is the evidence of a Holy Spirit within Christendom that is any different from the “transforming power” of Buddhism, Hinduism, Humanism or any other religious or moral system?

The fact that these are at least legitimate questions without easy answers ought to be very troubling. Is there something radically, fundamentally wrong with our “Christianity”? This to me seems the more pertinent question.

“And do not be conformed to this world, ....” Romans 12:2 (NASB). “’I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.’” John 17:14-16 (NASB).

It seems to me that “Christianity” is about as “of the world” as it could get. “Christianity” is marketed the same way Apple markets iPhones and McDonald’s markets hamburgers, and the results are measured the same way. "Christianity" attempts to conform itself to the world to the maximum extent possible.

The Christianity that Jesus was talking about would be observably different from the society around it. It would be hated by many because it stood in opposition to the society around it, not for the superficial reasons it is hated today. It would be appealing to those with ears to hear precisely because it was different. It would inevitably be smaller, at least for a long time, than “Christianity.”

So I don’t see abandoning the organized churches, or taking Christianity to the streets, or reforming Christianity in any other way as being productive until you have confronted the core question, “What is wrong with ‘Christianity’ and why is any random group of 500 ‘Christians’ pretty much indistinguishable from any random group of 500 Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists or New Agers in terms of the fruits described in Galatians 5:22-23, good deeds, successful marriages, miracles, scandals or any other measure that really matters?” An atheist would say, "Because Christianity isn't real." I don’t have all the answers, but as a Christian my guess would be, “Because ‘Christianity’ hasn’t tapped into the power of the Holy Spirit at all” (which brings to mind Chesterton's famous quip that "Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried").

Thus ends the Sunday sermon of Pastor Runner of The Church of What Runner Believes, which is the only one I've attended for many years. (I did visit my wife's Baptist church in Minsk, Belarus, a Soviet-style dictatorship where the Orthodox church is the only officially tolerated one. You do not attend a Baptist church in Minsk for any reason other than a sincere belief in the Gospel; attendance is going to put you at odds with your government and the society around you and is not going to benefit your secular life in any way. I truly felt as though I was in a Christian church for the first time in my wife. My wife's pastor, who had been to America, urged her not to come here because the "Christianity" she would encounter would not be the Christianity she had known.)