Is Jesus Christ also Michael the Arch Angel ?

[Free]

jlb



Ok ! Heb 13:8

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Jesus is not Michael the Arch Angel. That is heresy. Jesus is God in human flesh and angels are created beings. It simply cannot be the case.

 

[JLB]

jlb



Ok ! Heb 13:8

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. 2 And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly." 3 Then Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him, saying: 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of many nations.Genesis 17:1-4

That is Jesus.

2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am."

That is Jesus.

16 And the Angel of the Lord said to Manoah, "Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the Lord." (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the Lord.) 17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?" 18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?" 19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on-- 20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar--the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. 22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" Judges 13:16-22

That is Jesus.

Whenever Michael appears or is referenced, the scripture indicates so.

Jesus is the Almighty.

Mighty God.

Jesus is Lord.

Michael is an angel.


Another what to put is: What is an angel?

An angel is a spirit.

The Angel of the Lord would then also be The Spirit of The Lord.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Jesus Christ is Omnipresent as God.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:11

and again -

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

It was YHWH God who spoke these word's through the prophet Zechariah.

Michael the Archangel is not YHWH God!


JLB

 

[savedbygrace57]

free

Jesus is not Michael the Arch Angel.

Scripture please ?

Jesus is God in human flesh

I agree with that.

and angels are created beings.

So are men, was not Jesus a Man also ? 1 Tim 2:5

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Acts 2:22

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

 

[Messenger]

ARCHANGEL - Strongs G743 - archaggelos: or chief of the angels (or chief of the messengers; their prince)
ANGEL - Strongs H4397 - malak: or messenger
MICHAEL - Miykael - Strongs H4317 - "who is like God"

Christ is the CHIEF MESSENGER, not an archangel as translated in the KJV; but He is Christ. When we look at the context and compare the related Scriptures (1 Corinthians 2:13), our understanding may become clearer, if it be God's will to do so (2 Timothy 2:7; Luke 24:45; John 3:27).

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, THE GREAT PRINCE which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Revelation 20:15)

Acts 5:30-31 The God of our fathers raised up JESUS, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be A PRINCE AND A SAVIOUR, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, that ye may not sorrow, as also the rest who have not hope, for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him, for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep, because the Lord himself, in a shout, IN THE VOICE OF A CHIEF-MESSENGER, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be; so, then, comfort ye one another in these words. (YLT)

**Also, just a note regarding this being a JW doctrine: All the religions of the world may profess some truth found in the Bible, yet they all preach a false, do-it-yourself salvation plan of some kind; or a different Jesus who they believe is not God. These are those the Bible refers to as having their own kind of garment (not the righteousness of Christ), but still want to be called by His name (Isaiah 4:1).

All praise and glory to our God and Saviour Jesus Christ!

 

[Free]

Jesus is not Michael the Arch Angel.

Scripture please ?

If you're looking for a verse that states "Jesus is not the archangel Michael," that is simply not how it works. There is not a single verse which even implies that Jesus was Michael the archangel. Several have already given passages showing how they cannot be one and the same and I will do so as well, although this has likely been covered since the verses are few.

Rev 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back,
Rev 12:8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.
Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. (ESV)

Jesus is referred to as "the Christ" and "the Lamb" and numerous other titles and names throughout Scripture but never is there even a hint that he is/was Micheal the archangel. There is only one mention of "Michael the archangel" in the entire Bible and that is in Jude 1:9, relating a story that is not found in Scripture.

We should also look at Daniel:

Dan 10:13 The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia, (ESV)

If that were speaking of Jesus, that would mean that he has at least one other equal. Not to mention the problem of Jesus being referred to as a "prince" when he is God, the "King of kings."

To say that your belief that Jesus is Michael the archangel is on shaky ground, would be a massive understatement. There simply is no biblical reason for believing that to be the case.

and angels are created beings.

So are men, was not Jesus a Man also ? 1 Tim 2:5

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Acts 2:22

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

And? That has nothing to do with Jesus and the archangel Michael.

 

[lw9]

This may have already been posted, but just in case:

Heb 1:4 So He became as much superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is superior to theirs. 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father� Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be My Son�

So... no. Jesus is not an angel or even the Arch Angel.

 

[savedbygrace57]

free

If you're looking for a verse that states "Jesus is not the archangel
Michael," that is simply not how it works.

Well I am not going to take your word for it. I have given sufficient reason for my view throughout the Thread, you either accept it or you don't. Michael merely Means a Messenger, God's Chief Messenger to His Mosese. Moese refers to Christ as a Prophet Deut 18:15

The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

A Prophet is a Messenger of God.

And many men have believed that Michael is Christ that have nothing to do with Jehovah Witnesses, and who also believDeityhrist's Deaity as God, for instance John Gill a Baptist says this of Dan 12:1

And at that time shall Michael stand
up,.... The Archangel, who has all the angels
of heaven under him, and at his command, the Son of God, our Lord Jesus Christ;
who is as God, as the name signifies, truly and really God, and equal in nature,
power, and glory, to his divine Father: "he shall stand up"; which is not to be
understood of his incarnation, or manifestation in the flesh, for this refers to
times long after that; yet neither of his personal appearance in the clouds of
heaven, and standing upon the earth in the latter day; but of his spiritual
presence among his people, and protection of them, and continuance with them:
this respects the spiritual reigns of Christ, the Lamb's standing upon Mount
Zion, and the 144,000 with him, Revelation
14:1
, and this will be at that time, when the eastern antichrist, the
Turk, will be destroyed; for the words are closely connected with the last verse
of the preceding chapter; and when also the western antichrist, the pope of
Rome, will come to his end; for, as they rose, so they will fall, much about the
same time; and then Christ will rise and stand up, as the glorious Head of the
church, and as a triumphant Conqueror over all his enemies, and take to himself
his great power, and reign, and that kingdom which of right belongs to him.


The great Prince which standeth for the
children of thy people; the King of kings, and Lord of lords, the Prince
of the kings of the earth; great in his person, and in his office; great in
dignity, power, and authority; who always did, and ever will, stand on the side
of the true Israel of God: he espoused their cause very early; he wrought out
salvation for them in time; he intercedes for them now in heaven, and will
appear to be their patron and defender against all their enemies in the latter
day: here it seems to have special regard to the people of the Jews, Daniel's
people; whom Christ shall appear unto, and for, in an eminent manner, to convert
and save them, help and assist them, protect and defend them.

So please be careful in judging men to be Jehovah Witnesses because of that persuasion of theirs that Michael and Christ are the same, that would be dishonest if you did that, or if anyone else does that.

 

[JLB]

free



Well I am not going to take your word for it. I have given sufficient reason for my view throughout the Thread, you either accept it or you don't. Michael merely Means a Messenger, God's Chief Messenger to His Mosese. Moese refers to Christ as a Prophet Deut 18:15

The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

A Prophet is a Messenger of God.

And many men have believed that Michael is Christ that have nothing to do with Jehovah Witnesses, and who also believDeityhrist's Deaity as God, for instance John Gill a Baptist says this of Dan 12:1

So please be careful in judging men to be Jehovah Witnesses because of that persuasion of theirs that Michael and Christ are the same, that would be dishonest if you did that, or if anyone else does that.

You did not address any of the scriptures I gave you in post 62 in response to what you wrote.

Consider the following -

Jesus Christ is Omnipresent as God.

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:11

and again -

10 "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

It was YHWH God who spoke these word's through the prophet Zechariah.

Michael the Archangel is not YHWH God!


JLB

 

[savedbygrace57]

jlb

You did not address any of the scriptures I gave you in post 62

I agree with the scriptures you provided.

But why should I address them when you brought them to the forefront ? I know you are not asking me to do the study and reaserch of all them verses while you do nothing ?

 

[Free]

Well I am not going to take your word for it. I have given sufficient reason for my view throughout the Thread, you either accept it or you don't. Michael merely Means a Messenger, God's Chief Messenger to His Mosese. Moese refers to Christ as a Prophet Deut 18:15

The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

A Prophet is a Messenger of God.

That's not quite correct. As was previously posted, "angel," not "Michael," means "messenger." And there sure are a lot of angels in the Bible. And more importantly, as I stated, there is only one mention in the entirety of Scripture of archangel and it is in relation to a story that appears nowhere else in Scripture.

There simply is no support for Jesus having been Michael the archangel. None whatsoever.

And many men have believed that Michael is Christ that have nothing to do with Jehovah Witnesses, and who also believDeityhrist's Deaity as God, for instance John Gill a Baptist says this of Dan 12:1

And yet I have shown how such a view of Dan is quite problematic and really does nothing to support your view.

 

[savedbygrace57]

free

As was previously posted, "angel," not "Michael," means "messenger

Do you deny that Michael is the Name of An Messenger/ Angel ? Lets see Jude 1:9

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

The word archangel here is the greek word
archaggelos
Its made of Two greek words one
archō which means: to be chief, to lead, to rule
The next word is
aggelos which means:
a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God

Michael is God's Chiefist MesChiefestnow the question is, was in any way Jesus Christ a Messenger sent By God ? I say Yes. And if so, who could be more Chief than He ? You have any ideas ?
By the way, the Word chief means:
the head or leader of an organized body of people; the person highest in authority: the chief of police.

Michael is Jesus Christ the Head of His Body the Church, the Israel of God !
So your comment:

As was
previously posted, "angel," not "Michael," means "messenger

Is absolutely meaningless

 

[Free]

Do you deny that Michael is the Name of An Messenger/ Angel ? Lets see Jude 1:9

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

The word archangel here is the greek word
archaggelos
Its made of Two greek words one
archō which means: to be chief, to lead, to rule
The next word is
aggelos which means:
a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God

Michael is God's Chiefist MesChiefestnow the question is, was in any way Jesus Christ a Messenger sent By God ? I say Yes. And if so, who could be more Chief than He ? You have any ideas ?
By the way, the Word chief means:
the head or leader of an organized body of people; the person highest in authority: the chief of police.

Michael is Jesus Christ the Head of His Body the Church, the Israel of God !

Of course I don't deny that there may be an archangel named Michael. It just is very incorrect and dangerous to make a doctrine based on one verse. Even worse is that that one verse seemingly relates to something from OT times that isn't even in the OT. Your reasoning is very flawed and based on proof-texting, nothing more.

To state yet again, Jesus is not an angel and he is not Michael. This has been pointed out to you several times in various ways by several users.

So your comment:

As was previously posted, "angel," not "Michael," means "messenger

Is absolutely meaningless

Meaningless? You stated: "Michael merely Means a Messenger." I merely showed that that is not in fact the case.

 

[savedbygrace57]

free

Meaningless? You stated:

Yes !

To state yet again, Jesus is not an angel and he is not Michael

What scripture says that ? I am not taking your word for it. Jesus is a Angel/Messeger here according to scripture Mal 3:1

Behold, I will send my messenger[John the Baptist], and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant[Jesus Christ], whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

That word messenger is the hebrew word

mal'ak and means:

messenger, representative

a) messenger

b) angel

c) the theophanic angel

 

[savedbygrace57]

edward

Jesus is God the Fathers son

That has not been disputed, so this point is mute !

not a created Angel

He was a Messenger which is an Angel. And if He was an Messenger / Angel, then He would be the Chief of them. Also He was a Man, which was Created Gen 1, so this point is mute.

In fact men were created lower than Angels Ps 8:5

For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

 

[Sparkey]

It's wrong to worship or offer worship to created beings. Michael would himself object to being called "Jesus", of this I'm certain.
It has beeen said that angels are "sons of God" in that they have been created by Him, but there is a difference between them and "The Word of God" as declared by another of His messengers, John.

1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Or know ye not that we shall judge angels?

 

[savedbygrace57]

sparrow

It's wrong to worship or offer worship to created beings

I would agree with that.

Michael would himself object to being called "Jesus", of this I'm certain.

Thats just you saying that without no proof. Thats Like saying Jesus would object to being called a Messenger of God ! And He is called that here Mal 3:1

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

And if Jesus can be Identified as being a Messenger by scripture, then He would be the Chief of them ! An Arch Messenger !

It has beeen said that angels are "sons of God" in that they have been
created by Him,

So where men !

Or know ye not that we shall judge angels?

Or Messengers !

 

[Free]

Yes !

Do you normally call peoples' responses meaningless when they show you've erred or have somehow been inaccurate?

To state yet again, Jesus is not an angel and he is not Michael

What scripture says that ?

What Scripture says he is? None. It is never even implied.

I am not taking your word for it. Jesus is a Angel/Messeger here according to scripture Mal 3:1

Behold, I will send my messenger[John the Baptist], and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant[Jesus Christ], whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

That word messenger is the hebrew word

mal'ak and means:

messenger, representative

a) messenger

b) angel

c) the theophanic angel

You are confusing terms. The normal biblical usage of "angel" is in reference to a certain type or class of spiritual being. People can be "messengers" of God, just as the heavenly messengers, but we would never equate the two so as to say that there is no difference between an earthly messenger and a heavenly one.

Php_2:25 I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger and minister to my need, (ESV)

Are we to conclude that Epaphroditus is an angel? Is he Michael the archangel? That verse gives about as much support as you have given to show that Jesus is Michael.

Likewise, just because the Messiah is referred to as a messenger of God in no way means that he is therefore of the same sort or type as the other heavenly messengers. Just as angels and men are created beings of a different class, so angels and God the Son are of a different class of spiritual beings, the former created, the latter one not.

It is completely fallacious to use a passage that refers to the Messiah as a "messenger" and another that speaks of another being that is also a messenger, even a chief messenger, to conclude that that Jesus is therefore this chief messenger, Michael the archangel. That is very poor reasoning and biblical exegesis.

 

[Stone-yarder]

No

 

[savedbygrace57]

free

What Scripture says he is?

What scripture says He is not ? None, so that makes us even from that point.

You are confusing terms.

No confusion here. Angel means Messenger ! Jesus Christ is refered to as an Messenger Mal 3:1

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

Now if Christ be a Messenger, why Not Be the Chief one ? The word Arch in Arch Angel is the word
archō:
to be chief, to lead, to rule,

the head or leaer of an organized body of people; the person highest in authority:
Was their a Messenger of Higher Authority than the Messenger of the Covenant which is Christ ?

 

[westtexas]

Jesus is not Michael the Arch Angel.

SBG, let me get your opinion on a couple verses if they haven't been discussed and I just missed them.

Jude 9 says "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." (KJV)

Matt 17:18 says " And Jesus rebuked the devil;......." (KJV)

If Michael and our Lord Jesus are one and the same-why did he not rebuke the devil in Jude?